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Possible? UAL Premium Service To LHR  
User currently offlineKahala777 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (9 years 1 month 2 weeks 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 4541 times:

With the advent of United Airlines Premium Service in the lucrative JFK-LAX, JFK-SFO market, would it be at all possible to forsee United Airlines in its reorganization, to switch out the 777's on JFK-LHR with the Premium Service 757 product?

From what has been discussed on this forum it would seem as if Premium Service is producing above passengers expectations and offering United Airlines a nice little bundle of cash. In addition wouldnt United Airlines offering Premium Service in the JFK-LHR market, be a step above what American Airlines offers for passengers in the First, Business and Economy cabin?

In closing what is the chance of seeing United Airlines Premium Service enter the Washington D.C. to Los Angeles, San Francisco, or London/Heathrow markets? Couldnt United Airlines trade out some of its 777 for Pacific expansion in lieu of 757's with Premium Service configuration for Atlantic?



Aloha,

Kahala777

[Edited 2005-06-11 19:02:18]

57 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineASMD80 From United States of America, joined May 2005, 126 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (9 years 1 month 2 weeks 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 4502 times:

Quoting Kahala777 (Thread starter):
would it be at all possible to forsee United Airlines in its reorganization, to switch out the 777's on JFK-LHR with the Premium Service 757 product?

What are the loads on the premium cabins (F,J) vs. the Y cabin on UA's current JFK-LHR routes?



Some things are actually better at 30,000+ feet...
User currently offlineLufthansa747 From Philippines, joined May 1999, 3201 posts, RR: 43
Reply 2, posted (9 years 1 month 2 weeks 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 4495 times:

Quoting Kahala777 (Thread starter):
In addition wouldnt United Airlines offering Premium Service in the JFK-LHR market, be a step above what American Airlines offers for passengers in the First, Business and Economy cabin?

UA 777s have first suites and C+ on European routes. Much better than any domestic p.s.



Air Asia Super Elite, Cebu Pacific Titanium
User currently offlineKahala777 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 3, posted (9 years 1 month 2 weeks 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 4485 times:

Quoting Lufthansa747 (Reply 2):
UA 777s have first suites and C+ on European routes

What is C+?

Do you mean Economy Plus? That is already offered on the JFK-LAX, SFO flights.

American Airlines seats in Business and First are dismal at best. Even on the 777, American Airlines, premium products, have much to be desired!


Aloha,

Kahala777


User currently offlineDutchjet From Netherlands, joined Oct 2000, 7864 posts, RR: 57
Reply 4, posted (9 years 1 month 2 weeks 6 days ago) and read 4444 times:

I mentioned this once in another thread a while ago and many here jumped all over me saying that UA would be crazy to convert the JFK-LHR route to PS757 service.

While UA is small player in terms of seats and frequency on the JFK-LHR route, UA does have its following and its corportate accounts to take care of. UA's focus on JFK-LHR is similiar to its role on the transcons - lots of premium passengers that fly often and are loyal to UA. I think UA would do well with three or four PS757 flights per day between JFK and LHR (if slots at LHR would allow) including a daylight service on the eastbound leg and an evening departure on the westbound leg.....UA would probably make its loyal frequent flyers very happy by offering more departures per day. It could just work, and a side-benefit would be that UA would also solve some of its widebody aircraft problems. UA could offer PS-connections for some pax travelling between SFO/LAX and London.

The real question is - does the economics of the low-density premium service configured 757 work in real life? Does UA actually make money on flights operated with the PS757? I do not know the answer to that - does UA keep all of the premium seats filled up on the transcon flights, and, of course, at what prices? SO much depends on the basic business model - but if UA is making money on the transcon PS757 services (and that is the big IF), I think that JFK-London would be a natural followup for this type of service.


User currently offlineLaxintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 24870 posts, RR: 46
Reply 5, posted (9 years 1 month 2 weeks 6 days ago) and read 4440 times:

Two immediate operational problems without considering any marketing factors.

1-All the currently assigned p.s. aircraft are non ETOPS B757s. UA smallish(16) B757 ETOPS fleet are currently well tasked with lots of Hawaii flying.
2-The majority of UAs B757 fleet is barred as part of lease/insurance covenants from leaving the United States.



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlineKahala777 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 6, posted (9 years 1 month 2 weeks 6 days ago) and read 4437 times:

Quoting Laxintl (Reply 5):
2-The majority of UAs B757 fleet is barred as part of lease/insurance covenants from leaving the United States

Yeah, that can be a problem  wink 

Back in 1998, America West wanted to operate larger aircraft to Mexico City, when LAS-MEX was going out full. Problem was that the leaser did not allow the aircraft to leave the borders of the United States.


Aloha,

Kahala777


User currently offlineLHRCS From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2005, 23 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (9 years 1 month 2 weeks 6 days ago) and read 4385 times:

Dont really see this happening at any time.

But would love to see another flight on this route, pref a very early morning dept say about 07:30 dept LHR to avrl JFK aprox 10:30. Just think you could then realistically do a day trip to NYC as you could return on the 21:30 dept (ua904) to arv LHR 09:25 and still do a days work.

Just a thought..


User currently offlineRoseFlyer From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 9508 posts, RR: 52
Reply 8, posted (9 years 1 month 2 weeks 6 days ago) and read 4384 times:

If UA had not sold off its unused slots at LHR, it would have been interesting to see if they could have made the 757 work across the Atlantic. It could have been similar to the privatair flights operating on behalf of LH and Swiss. UA could serve smaller east coast destinations to LHR nonstop with 757s in a premium configuration. But in reality a normal international 777 is nicer than a PS 757. The first suites definitely beat the lie flat first class seats on PS.

The down side with having 757s go across the Atlantic for UA is that almost every decently sized airport in the east has a hub operation by some airline and service to Gatwick. With Bermuda II, UA would be forced to serve Gatwick, which would defeat the purpose. Nonetheless, it would have been an interesting move if UA started serving LHR from PIT, BDL, PVD, MHT, etc. But I still doubt that it would have worked since operating into LHR is very expensive and there may not be enough premium traffic to warrant this service.



If you have never designed an airplane part before, let the real designers do the work!
User currently offlineLACA773 From United States of America, joined Nov 2004, 4002 posts, RR: 2
Reply 9, posted (9 years 1 month 2 weeks 6 days ago) and read 4340 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

How are they doing with their "PS" transcon legs LAX/SFO-JFK-LAX/SFO?

I hope it is working out for them. They do have a very loyal following and my Mom takes it frequently. From what I understand, their inflight product is far superior compared to AA's, and what DL did have and no longer does.

LACA773


User currently offlineLee From United Kingdom, joined May 2005, 148 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (9 years 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 4297 times:

I wouldnt really see the point of it. The US domestic flight have no real premium service so p.s. made a change. If you want premium to NY you can fly BA, they have something like 5 flights a day. You cant get much more premium than BA first.

User currently offlineBRAVO7E7 From United States of America, joined Jul 2004, 1840 posts, RR: 17
Reply 11, posted (9 years 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 4261 times:

This would be a terrible move, considering that United is overbooked in Economy on almost ALL flights JFK-LHR. Reducing Economy capacity and increasing F & C capacity would be a bad move.

User currently offlineKahala777 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 12, posted (9 years 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 4162 times:

Quoting BRAVO7E7 (Reply 11):
United is overbooked in Economy on almost ALL flights JFK-LHR

Oh, I forgot it is the people in the back that pay to keep the plane up in the air!  sarcastic 

Look at it form this standpoint

1 December
JFK-LHR

10 December
LHR-JFK

First Class
$12,882.00

Business Class
$3,350.00

Economy Class
$461.00

Booking engine used was Expedia.

If you were take the above equation, it takes 27 Economy Class passengers to equal 1 First Class passenger.

If you were to take the above equation, it takes 7 Economy Class passengers to equal 1 Business Class passenger.

You may want to rethink how important the size of the Economy Class cabin is on your next Trans-Atlantic flight!  sarcastic 

Quoting BRAVO7E7 (Reply 11):
Reducing Economy capacity and increasing F & C capacity would be a bad move.

What planet do you live on? The money to be made is in the premium cabins, not Economy for International markets.


Aloha,

Kahala777


User currently offlinePlaneSmart From New Zealand, joined Dec 2004, 871 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (9 years 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 4135 times:

Quoting Laxintl (Reply 5):
2-The majority of UAs B757 fleet is barred as part of lease/insurance covenants from leaving the United States.

Insurance can be an issue heading to some destinations, but not London.

If the aircraft have appropriate equipment / apporvals for over-water flying, changing insurance and leases should be a formality.

Given the sweetheart deals virtually all financiers are currently willingly / unwillingly providing to US-based airlines, making the necessary changes shouldn't be a problem. In 2005, anything that improves the financial viability of a customer is not a problem.

Within the next 5-10 years, 757 sized aircraft will be priced out of LHR, as airlines will be able to make more money in the short-term selling slots to A38 operators, than using for their own flights.


User currently offlineBRAVO7E7 From United States of America, joined Jul 2004, 1840 posts, RR: 17
Reply 14, posted (9 years 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 4024 times:

Quoting Kahala777 (Reply 12):
Oh, I forgot it is the people in the back that pay to keep the plane up in the air!

Look at it form this standpoint

1 December
JFK-LHR

10 December
LHR-JFK

First Class
$12,882.00

Business Class
$3,350.00

Economy Class
$461.00

Booking engine used was Expedia.

If you were take the above equation, it takes 27 Economy Class passengers to equal 1 First Class passenger.

If you were to take the above equation, it takes 7 Economy Class passengers to equal 1 Business Class passenger.

You may want to rethink how important the size of the Economy Class cabin is on your next Trans-Atlantic flight!

Right, and the typical economy passanger is paying $461.


Next, what is the whole point of Premium Service? Is it not to replicate international service? Why replicate international service when you can have the real thing?


User currently offlineKahala777 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 15, posted (9 years 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 3973 times:

Quoting BRAVO7E7 (Reply 14):
Next, what is the whole point of Premium Service? Is it not to replicate international service? Why replicate international service when you can have the real thing?

United Airlines Premium Service, Economy Plus, is miles above what American Airlines, Northwest Airlines, and Delta Airlines offer in economy class across the pond.

United Airlines Premium Service, Business Class, is miles above that of Northwest Airlines, and Delta Airlines across the pond!

United Airlines Premium Service, First Class, is miles above the "Business" products that Delta, and Northwest Airlines offer over the pond!


Aloha,

Kahala777


User currently offlineBRAVO7E7 From United States of America, joined Jul 2004, 1840 posts, RR: 17
Reply 16, posted (9 years 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 3960 times:

Quoting Kahala777 (Reply 15):
United Airlines Premium Service, Economy Plus, is miles above what American Airlines, Northwest Airlines, and Delta Airlines offer in economy class across the pond.

United Airlines Premium Service, Business Class, is miles above that of Northwest Airlines, and Delta Airlines across the pond!

United Airlines Premium Service, First Class, is miles above the "Business" products that Delta, and Northwest Airlines offer over the pond!

Here is what I think you are saying:

United Airlines, Economy Plus, is miles above what American Airlines, Northwest Airlines, and Delta Airlines offer in economy class across the pond.

United Airlines, Business Class, is miles above that of Northwest Airlines, and Delta Airlines across the pond!

United Airlines, First Class, is miles above the "Business" products that Delta, and Northwest Airlines offer over the pond!


User currently offlineJamake1 From United States of America, joined May 2004, 1005 posts, RR: 2
Reply 17, posted (9 years 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 3953 times:

So refreshing to hear someone compliment United's service. It is a good topic for discussion..P.S. Service across the pond. I would like to see P.S. Service expanded to IAD-LAX/SFO and perhaps BOS-LAX/SFO.


United's B747-400. "She's a a cruel lover."
User currently offlineBRAVO7E7 From United States of America, joined Jul 2004, 1840 posts, RR: 17
Reply 18, posted (9 years 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 3949 times:

Quoting Jamake1 (Reply 17):
IAD-LAX/SFO and perhaps BOS-LAX/SFO.

There is no point IAD-LAX/SFO, considering that most people on that route work for the government. There are not enough people willing to pay high fares.


User currently offlineLuv2fly From United States of America, joined May 2003, 12090 posts, RR: 49
Reply 19, posted (9 years 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 3934 times:

Quoting BRAVO7E7 (Reply 16):
United Airlines, Economy Plus, is miles above what American Airlines, Northwest Airlines, and Delta Airlines offer in economy class across the pond

NW still offers complimentary alcohol drinks and new state of the art A330's across the pond.



You can cut the irony with a knife
User currently offlineKahala777 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 20, posted (9 years 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 3934 times:

Quoting Luv2fly (Reply 19):
NW still offers complimentary alcohol drinks and new state of the art A330's across the pond

And those horrible blue nightmare seats on the DC-10 out of MSP?

What about the nightmare blue seats that are on every aircraft type except for the A330?

You are also forgetting a very important thing. Northwest Airlines, unlike American, Delta, Continental, America West, United, US Airways, Alaska, ATA, and Omni does not offer Inflight IFE on any domestic segment, with the excpetion of Hawaii!



Aloha,

Kahala777


User currently offlineLuv2fly From United States of America, joined May 2003, 12090 posts, RR: 49
Reply 21, posted (9 years 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 3926 times:

Quoting Kahala777 (Reply 20):
You are also forgetting a very important thing. Northwest Airlines, unlike American, Delta, Continental, America West, United, US Airways, Alaska, ATA, and Omni does not offer Inflight IFE on any domestic segment, with the excpetion of Hawaii!

And this is relevant in a talk about flights to Europe because why?



You can cut the irony with a knife
User currently offlineKahala777 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 22, posted (9 years 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 3884 times:

Quoting Luv2fly (Reply 21):
And this is relevant in a talk about flights to Europe because why?

If you recall the subject was in regards to United Airlines Premium Service (a domestic full service product), and Europe.

Premium Service, Trans-Con are both domestic topics!  wink 

Aloha,

Kahala777


User currently offlineKahala777 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 23, posted (9 years 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 3871 times:

Quoting BRAVO7E7 (Reply 16):
Here is what I think you are saying:

United Airlines, Economy Plus, is miles above what American Airlines, Northwest Airlines, and Delta Airlines offer in economy class across the pond.

United Airlines, Business Class, is miles above that of Northwest Airlines, and Delta Airlines across the pond!

United Airlines, First Class, is miles above the "Business" products that Delta, and Northwest Airlines offer over the pond!

No, that is not what I said.

I was referring to United Airlines Premium Service in my Reply #15, it was clear to me from your post #16 that you cared only to listen and read a part of it.

Premium Service, you know, the only thing that is "Full Service" within the lower 48!  sarcastic 


Aloha,

Kahala777


User currently offlineChristao17 From Thailand, joined Apr 2005, 938 posts, RR: 8
Reply 24, posted (9 years 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 3857 times:

Kahala777 -

It is an interesting idea. What might end up being more feasible would be to just upgrade the current international fleeet (after exiting BK of course). Continue to fly JFK-LHR with the 777 but upgrade business to be the same lie-flat product that is in the PS First cabin and freshen up the UA First Suite a bit. Add AVOD in economy and I think it would make UA much more competitive without decreasing the number of seats.

Cheers,

Christao17



Keeping the "civil" in civil aviation...
25 Kahala777 : This was the plan pre 9-11-01 This was the plan for the 747-400 pre 9-11-01 Aloha, Kahala777
26 Laxintl : A 7th LAX-JFK flight was recently introduced. Overall yields have improved in all classes. With much smaller economy product there is less pressure t
27 UAORD2000 : An interesting fact: When United reconfigured the 757 to PS, they also made them over-water equipped. Surely United didn't spend the extra time and mo
28 Laxintl : ha? None of the p.s. aircraft are overwater equipped. UA operates 4 different B757 fleets. 56 Domestic MQ nose number 54xx Non overwater standard con
29 UAORD2000 : I could be wrong, but I'm almost certain the 57p is overwater. Not sure about the ratings and ETOPS; however, the plane is equipped with life vests,
30 Post contains images Laxintl : Yes on vest, no on raft. Speaking of over water equipped, please stand by for TED.. A sub fleet will be O/W equipped starting the fall..
31 SFORunner : To compare the 757ps plane with the 777 used for JFK-LHR (borrowing information from Seat Guru): First: 777 - United First Suite 78.0" pitch 21.5" wid
32 N1120A : Their F-class is suites and C class is the same as UA Actually, UA lost a massive amount of premium transcon traffic, particularly out of LAX, to AA
33 Kahala777 : What? I guess you have not flown P.S., now have you? By who people in Michigan, and Minnesota? Really? That statement needs some serious backing up!
34 RamerinianAir : Kahala, I love the idea!!! In this economy,many airlines are cheapining it up and offering rock bottom fares. I choose to fly CO a lot because they ch
35 Kahala777 : You mean actually offer something that every other airline does not?? Yes, I think that United Airlines has a great idea with Premium Service. If Uni
36 Scotron11 : There are two start-ups being proposed to offer the same product LON-NYC. One is EON and the other FirstAir. EON proposed flying STN-JFK with a 757 ou
37 Commavia : Well, there are many people who obviously think AA's service isn't that bad, as AA is flying record numbers of people, experiencing record load facto
38 Post contains links Kahala777 : Isnt it more like Eos, Max Jet, and First Air? Something to that effect! Eos, using a 752 ex JFK to STN http://www.eosairlines.com/ Max Jet, using a
39 Post contains images Kahala777 : In most cases they will chose Song, or United Airlines. Southwest Airlines, and Jet Blue, are no longer the lowest rates out there. A common myth has
40 Post contains images Kahala777 : Yeah, Greyhound with Wings! Funny, is that why United Airlines Premium Service, is doing so well? Funny, is that why PrivatAir, is doing so well? Fun
41 Baw716 : Kahala, We have already discussed this idea, in the thought process of what to do if the 763s were pulled down and repo'd by the banks. The 757s with
42 Kahala777 : BAW716: Welcome to my Respected User list. It is nice to see another aviation enthusiast who thinks outside of the typical, "it cant be done" box! Alo
43 Commavia : Not always, but much of the time. And, almost always, when WN or B6 are not the lowest fares in the market, and a legacy are, the legacy is pricing t
44 Kahala777 : MCO-LAX exists, by United Airlines mainline due to United Airlines having very, very good money making contracts with Universal, and Disney. In all h
45 Post contains images Commavia : Exactly my point, and all the more proof that if UA didn't have the lucrative Disney contract, their MCO-LAX route probably would not exist or would
46 Baw716 : It would seem that Kahala and Commavia have entered into an interesting debate. It has gone off into a different topic that speaks to more of airline
47 Malaysia : aww I guess the poor non-revs will have less chance when most of Y class dissappears
48 Post contains images Kahala777 : FYI: Airlines do not exist to offer Non-Rev benefits. Aloha, Kahala777
49 Commavia : While I agree with you that many customers would be persuaded to book away from WN towards UA if the price point was only $30 higher per ticket than
50 Post contains images Kahala777 : You are forgetting some very key factors. United Airlines flys to actual cities as is the case with New York, San Francisco, Boston, Miami, and Washi
51 Post contains images Commavia : That's right, and that's great, but for the fact that the number of people travelling on business has been declining since 1999 and is not rebounding
52 Christao17 : Baw716 makes some fantastic points. As with any industry that becomes commoditized, there are generally only two ways to be successful: The first is
53 N1120A : Actually, Southern California was home to Disney WAY before that. It is Disneyland that was built in 1955 Nope, by business travelers across the Paci
54 Burnsie28 : Sure it is, with lie-flat beds and an unbeatable IFE system. Get real, and the new NW WBC meal offerings, as was said above, Northwest has been rated
55 Kahala777 : The statement I made was tongue and cheek to the fact that Delta, Conitnental, US Airways,and Northwest Airlines have lost demand unlike United and A
56 Avek00 : Let's see: You want UA to compete on JFK-LHR with a higher-CASM product that is inferior to most existing LHR premium offerings. Yup, sounds like a wi
57 N1120A : Like a little birdie named Earl said to me, it would be the Indy Air of Bermuda II
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