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Any LCC Carrier A National Company?  
User currently offlineRootsAir From Costa Rica, joined Feb 2005, 4186 posts, RR: 40
Posted (9 years 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 2668 times:

a couple of weeks ago there was a report on French TV about the French man who is president of Sky Europe. It was stated he went to Bratislava as there was no national carrier at the time. It was mentoned Sky Europe became Slovakia's national carrier.
I also heard Virgin Nigeria was declared national carrier! Is it also an LCC.

Which other country has an LCC as its national carrier ?

Regards

BM


A man without the knowledge of his past history,culture and origins is like a tree without roots
28 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineTriStar500 From Germany, joined Nov 1999, 4696 posts, RR: 42
Reply 1, posted (9 years 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 2658 times:

Aer Lingus fits this description at least on non-longhaul routes.


Homer: Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true!
User currently offlineRootsAir From Costa Rica, joined Feb 2005, 4186 posts, RR: 40
Reply 2, posted (9 years 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 2651 times:

Quoting TriStar500 (Reply 1):
Aer Lingus fits this description at least on non-longhaul routes.

Its true, i've heard their service is horrible and non existent. But is Aer Lingus considered an LCC such as RaynAir or EasyJet.I'm not sure bout that...but I do agree to some extent they are trying to get the LCC market(e.g their low prices and their ugly white aerlingus.com livery).



A man without the knowledge of his past history,culture and origins is like a tree without roots
User currently offlineERJ170 From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 6791 posts, RR: 17
Reply 3, posted (9 years 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 2647 times:

would GOL be considered a national carrier?


Aiming High and going far..
User currently offlineOrion737 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 4, posted (9 years 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 2632 times:

Aer Lingus certainly fits in to the no-frills LCC category on European flights as does the national carriers Austrian, Iberia and SAS. Unlike US LCCs these airlines charge you for a can of Coke or a cup of coffee.

User currently offlineJoost From Netherlands, joined Apr 2005, 3188 posts, RR: 4
Reply 5, posted (9 years 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 2605 times:

Quoting RootsAir (Thread starter):
It was stated he went to Bratislava as there was no national carrier at the time. It was mentoned Sky Europe became Slovakia's national carrier.

Well, Slovak Airlines started operations in 1998. However, when you compare the SkyEurope network to that of Slovak Airlines, one can easily say that SkyEurope is the most important carrier for the country: Slovak Airlines only flies to BRU and SVO!

For a carrier being a LCC, I often wonder when an airline is a LCC. It stands for Low Cost Carrier, so your costs should be low. But what criteria are there for being a LCC?

- Only offering P2P-flights, like FR and U2? Well, might be true for Europe, but defenitely not for the USA. (WN) Some people also consider Air Berlin as a LCC, but they do offer connecting flights.

- No inclusive meals on-board? I can't think of a LCC offering free meals, but Full Service Carriers like LX and IB also let you pay for meals.

- Only serving secondary, uncongested airports? U2 flies LGW-AMS, LGW-LIN; not the prime example for secondary uncongested airports.

- Only having one type of plane? I wouldn't mention Easyjet here, as I consider the 319 and 73G as similar (they only chose Airbus because of the price, but not for network-wide demand adjustment); however SkyEurope flies the Brasilia next to it's 735's, and JetBlue ordered the E190 next to the 320's.

- Offering easy walk-up one-way fares? IMHO, this is one of the more important criteria. However, carriers like Air Baltic, Aer Lingus and BMI also introduced this fare system.

I think it's hard to say wheter a carrier is a LCC or a FSC. From the past, for the European situation, most carriers where gouvernement-supported during many years, and as there was no real cost-cutting incentive, they often had a high costs basis. However after complete deregulation, some of the old national carriers like EI also cut their costs and transformed their business model. But also KLM did a massive cost-cutting after they got competition from new entrants (the LCC's) - as their costs are way lower now than let's say 5 years ago, are they a Low Cost Carrier?

And there is also the question wheter a carrier is a national carrier. Is it the one that is owned by the governement? If it the one that offers the best connections? Is it the one that carries the name of the country? And can there be more than one?

Your insights are appreciated  Smile


User currently offlineTs-ior From Tunisia, joined Oct 2001, 3506 posts, RR: 6
Reply 6, posted (9 years 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 2550 times:

What about Air Malta ? Not completely LCC anyway, and Air Arabia, the airline of the emirate of Sharjah !!!

User currently offlineToulouse From Switzerland, joined Apr 2005, 2759 posts, RR: 57
Reply 7, posted (9 years 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 2542 times:

Quoting RootsAir (Reply 2):
Its true, i've heard their service is horrible and non existent. But is Aer Lingus considered an LCC such as RaynAir or EasyJet.I'm not sure bout that...but I do agree to some extent they are trying to get the LCC market(e.g their low prices and their ugly white aerlingus.com livery).

Buenas tardes RootsAir! Sorry, but I really have to jump in here to defend my national carrier. I do not believe Aer Lingus has "horrible" and "non existent" service... anyway, if it's non-existent, how can it be horrible??  wink 

Aer Lingus classify themselves a a "low fares carrier". I fly the airline frequently, and while I do admit there are airlines, and many, out there that offer a a more high class service, the only thing that EI has in common with many LCC's are their low fares. Crews are well dressed, professional, efficient and extremely friendly. With the exception of having no business class on its European network (this is only recent and I wouldn't be surprised if we see Aer Lingus offering business again soon), EI offers most theadvantages of other national carriers.
Also, their ugly white aerlingus.com lovery, which I do agree WAS very ugly, was only painted on two A320's leased from Swiss while awaiting delivery of their new 320's from Airbus and on a couple of the aging 737's which will be retired by the end of this summer season. All the new 320's been delivered by Airbus are in the same and highly distinguishable green livery Aer Lingus has been using.

Sorry RootsAir, not attacking you... I'm sure you'll understand me wanting to defend my national carrier. Even more so when your comments are just some personal opinions you've heard and don't reflect the truth (yet I've also heard the EI on long-haul are certainly not that great regarding cabin service).



Long live Aer Lingus!
User currently offlineKL911 From Czech Republic, joined Jul 2003, 5310 posts, RR: 15
Reply 8, posted (9 years 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 2517 times:

SouthWest is a 'national carrier' since they don't even fly international routes, unlike their European and Asian counterparts. And it has the largest marketvalue.

KL911


User currently offlineElagabal From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2005, 201 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (9 years 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 2478 times:

I think there is a lot of confusion about regarding such vague terms as "national carrier" and "LCC." Lots of airlines want to claim these labels for marketing purposes. Virgin Atlantic would love to have you think they were the UK's "national carrier," for example.

Besides, I've seen some prices offered by LCC that weren't CHEAP, especially when you consider the quality-price relationship! Advertising can turn crap to gold in more ways than one...

In the past, when routes were entirely regulated and parcelled out according to bilateral agreements, a "flag carrier" (afaik) was the airline designated to enjoy routes which were negotiated by the government of one country, as part or all of its allowed routes into another country. In most cases, especially in Europe, you had one nation, one (government-owned) airline; so the question of who was the flag carrier had an obvious answer.

Nowadays, of course, the situation is a lot more liberal, and the question of who is the largest / most important / phattest airline in a given nation is a question of who manages to convince people that it is. A lot has to do with corporate identity (or hype). Sure, in some cases the answer is obvious (AF, AZ, LH); over here, although all carriers are now 100% private, I think BA has a right to call itself the British flag carrier, both for historical reasons and because it's by far the largest, and flies to the most countries. Still, it's more or less down to the opinion of the public, which isn't set in stone.

Oh yeah, re/ BA, painting yourself with your country's flag is a good way of staking a claim (rightly or wrongly).

SkyEurope is an interesting case: although it's by far the largest Slovak airline, it makes almost no claims to "Slovak-ness" in its image - at least not from what I've seen here in the UK. The other carriers (Air Slovakia and Slovak Airlines) are ta-hiny. Does Slovakia have a "national carrier" at all? At the current time, I'd say technically yes, but functionally, no. I'd also say that the USA has several national carriers, given that AA, UA, DL and CO are all strongly American-identified and visible in many different places.

Virgin Nigeria's another good one. I think it's fair to say that Virgin overall has a better international brand image than Nigeria does, yet the Nigerian government has designated VNG the flag carrier. (It's majority Nigerian, but privately owned - not government owned, fortunately in this case.) To what does the primary identity ultimately refer? Look which word comes first... Strange.

As for LCC, I think Joost set out the terms very well.

Maybe the best definition should be polar: the more boxes (defined by Joost) you can tick, the closer to the Platonic form of the LCC you are. So EI and IB would not really qualify, whereas FR would just about hit the bullseye.

To naysayers who insist EI is an LCC, I'd reply no, they're just inexpensive. And if you've flown U2 and FR last-minute often enough you know that there's a difference!

2p

[Edited 2005-06-13 18:09:35]

User currently offlineChiguire From Venezuela, joined Sep 2004, 2005 posts, RR: 16
Reply 10, posted (9 years 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 2451 times:

Quoting Elagabal (Reply 9):

SkyEurope is an interesting case: although it's by far the largest Slovak airline, it makes almost no claims to "Slovak-ness" in its image -

I think it's quite clear why there is no sign of being Slovak: they try to be a "central European" LCC. They operate out of Bratislava, but have some 737 positioned in BUD, KRK and WAW. Selling in those countries would be much more difficult showing that they are Slovak.

Apart of that, they are two different companies: SkyEurope (NE) and SkyEurope Hungary (5P). Two AOCs.

And that's the reason why I would not consider them as the national carrier of Slovakia.

Quoting RootsAir (Thread starter):
a couple of weeks ago there was a report on French TV about the French man who is president of Sky Europe.

They are Belgian.


User currently offlineRJ100 From Switzerland, joined Nov 2000, 4126 posts, RR: 29
Reply 11, posted (9 years 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 2441 times:

National in what directions?

In Switzerland:

-SWISS would be the national carrier in terms of subsidies spending Big grin
-Austrian would be the national carrier in terms of destinations served (Zurich,Basel,Geneva,Altenrhein while SWISS only serves ZRH and GVABig grin
-easyJet would be national carrier in terms of marketshares on two of the three largest airports (Geneva and Basel) Big grin

So yes, Switzerland's national carrier is a LCC! Big grin Big grin Big grin

RJ100



none
User currently offlineEurostarVA From Bahrain, joined May 2002, 1296 posts, RR: 7
Reply 12, posted (9 years 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 2362 times:

Virgin Nigeria is not an LCC. Its new A340 is configured in 3 classes. For more info check www.virginnigeria.com which has just been updated.


If there is a will, there is a way
User currently offlineJoost From Netherlands, joined Apr 2005, 3188 posts, RR: 4
Reply 13, posted (9 years 6 months 2 weeks 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 2304 times:

Quoting RJ100 (Reply 11):
-Austrian would be the national carrier in terms of destinations served (Zurich,Basel,Geneva,Altenrhein while SWISS only serves ZRH and GVA)

AFAIK, Swiss operates at least a BSL-AMS flight on a Saab.

Quoting Toulouse (Reply 7):
Aer Lingus classify themselves a a "low fares carrier". I fly the airline frequently, and while I do admit there are airlines, and many, out there that offer a a more high class service, the only thing that EI has in common with many LCC's are their low fares. Crews are well dressed, professional, efficient and extremely friendly.

They have, in their European network, many things in common with a LCC:

- Low Fares
- One-way fare system
- One size fits all-aircraft choice
- Buy-on-board meals
- Not offering connecting flights by default. On their website, you can't choose to fly AMS-DUB-BOS if you'd like. You will have to buy, LCC-like, seperate segments.

And they say that after reorganisation, they have a low cost structure. I don't think that LCC has to mean bad service and bad crew. After reading all the enthousiastic news about JetBlue, it seems that it is possible.

Of course, there are two other criteria I missed out in my list:

- Offering interlining possiblities, within or beyond alliances. EI does this. Also America West, which could qualify as a LCC, offers codeshares and interling. And Air Berlin also does codesharing with Niki and HLX.

- Offering business class. Is AirTrain a LCC?


User currently offlineL410Turbolet From Czech Republic, joined May 2004, 5745 posts, RR: 19
Reply 14, posted (9 years 6 months 2 weeks 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 2266 times:

Quoting Chiguire (Reply 10):
Selling in those countries would be much more difficult showing that they are Slovak.

Why, if I may ask???


User currently offlineJoost From Netherlands, joined Apr 2005, 3188 posts, RR: 4
Reply 15, posted (9 years 6 months 2 weeks 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 2270 times:

I think that when calling it Slovakian, many people would think that you will have to change planes instead of direct flights.

When booking a flight BUD-LHR on Swiss, you have a transfer in Switzerland, on Lufthansa in Germany, on KLM in Holland. When offering a flight on let's say Sky Slovakia, many people would think that a transfer is involved.

Next to that, there is the effect that national carriers have/had an image of offering good service, but being more expensive than non-national-profiling carriers. When choosing a name like SkyEurope, they show that they are multi-national and LCC.

I think in this example that Air Baltic made a great choice of it's name, now they are also offering flights ex VNO.


User currently offlineRootsAir From Costa Rica, joined Feb 2005, 4186 posts, RR: 40
Reply 16, posted (9 years 6 months 2 weeks 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 2236 times:

Quoting Joost (Reply 13):

They have, in their European network, many things in common with a LCC:

- Low Fares
- One-way fare system
- One size fits all-aircraft choice
- Buy-on-board meals
- Not offering connecting flights by default. On their website, you can't choose to fly AMS-DUB-BOS if you'd like. You will have to buy, LCC-like, seperate segments.

This makes of EI the weakest link of One World



A man without the knowledge of his past history,culture and origins is like a tree without roots
User currently offlineAIR MALTA From Malta, joined Sep 2001, 2531 posts, RR: 1
Reply 17, posted (9 years 6 months 2 weeks 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 2229 times:

Quoting Ts-ior (Reply 6):
What about Air Malta ? Not completely LCC anyway, and Air Arabia, the airline of the emirate of Sharjah !!!

Air Malta is not a LCC company. You still get a snack and a drink on the very shorts trips from Malta to Tunis or Catania. But Air Malta has kind of LCC operation to London STN and Cologne I think with no frills... but it is just limited and it is called Fare 4U.



Next flights : BRU-ZRH-CAI (LX)/ BRU-FCO-TLV (AZ)
User currently offlineJoost From Netherlands, joined Apr 2005, 3188 posts, RR: 4
Reply 18, posted (9 years 6 months 2 weeks 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 2243 times:

I never understand why people consider EI as the weakest link of OneWorld, because they have a different business approach.

- Low Fares
- One-way fare system
- One size fits all-aircraft choice

Is it better for OneWorld to charge high fares? Is it neccesary to charge ridiculous amounts for one-way fares? Can't you have one aircraft type for the biggest part of your operations? And: who will complain of flying a 320 short-haul instead of some ER4?

- Buy-on-board meals

AA and IB also offer buy-on-board meals.

- Not offering connecting flights by default

They don't offer it by default on their own metal from all kind of European destinations to the US or other European destinations. To other European destinations, it's geographically not an option. And for Europe-US transfers: apparently the profits on this flights are not as high, as when offering the flights as one-way.

Why is this bad for OneWorld?

They do, however, offer the possiblity for other members to book seats on their planes. Other OneWorld carriers can use the EI network to offer flights. And for this, they are of use of OneWorld. Of course, their network is small compared to BA, but it offers a choice to people - only good for passengers! And good for OneWorld.

Next to that, they offer flights to destinations they don't serve on their own metal, on codeshare basis. Like many USA destionations on AA. This brings in passengers and money for AA and other OneWorld members - why is this bad for OneWorld?

And the lower service on-board, for lower prices? People can choose themselves! If a flight JFK-DUB-PRG is cheaper than JFK-LHR-PRG, than people can choose wether they want to pay for the extra BA service or not. People have a choice - only good for OneWorld. It's not that you don't know who you'll be flying when booking!


User currently offlineFlyinHigh From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 71 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (9 years 6 months 2 weeks 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 2156 times:

Quoting Toulouse (Reply 7):
Crews are well dressed, professional, efficient and extremely friendly.

You are being sarcastic about these right??? If you are talking about the pilot and FO, I'll agree. If you are talking about the cabin crew, you obviously don't fly other non LCC airlines. Most of the people I know that fly EI hate the cabin crew (European and Transatlantic)

Quoting Toulouse (Reply 7):
the only thing that EI has in common with many LCC's are their low fares.

No it's not. It doesn't offer:
- Business class service in Europe (as you have said later in your relpy)
- Meals on European flights
- Frequent flyer rewards
- 1st class on transatlantic service

Quoting Toulouse (Reply 7):
I'm sure you'll understand me wanting to defend my national carrier

Actually I don't. Can you explain why you do?



Flown on A300,320,321,330, B717,727,737,747,757,767,777, BAC 1-11, BAE 146, D228, HS-121, L1011, MD 80, S360
User currently offlineGrimey From Ireland, joined Jun 2005, 459 posts, RR: 5
Reply 20, posted (9 years 6 months 2 weeks 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 2142 times:

When I seen the name of this topic the first thing that came into my head was EI, looks like I wasn't the only one. EI shorthaul is suppose to be bad but I've been told that their DUB-JFK is one of the best.

Sure it could be worse, we could have FR as our national carrier  no 


User currently offlineShamrock350 From Ireland, joined Mar 2005, 6373 posts, RR: 14
Reply 21, posted (9 years 6 months 2 weeks 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 2114 times:

EI on shorthaul are pretty good, nice amount of space in the cabin, low fares, only €8 for a full Irish breakfast and a newspaper (in the morning).

Although they are not so good on longhaul but there's always time for improvement.  Smile


User currently offlineFlyingTexan From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 22, posted (9 years 6 months 2 weeks 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 2057 times:

Quoting RootsAir (Thread starter):
Any LCC Carrier A National Company?

Of course they are a national company. 430+ Planes, 60 Cities. Last year, they carried more passengers in the US borders than any other carrier. They have high name recognition, brand loyalty and a corporate climate that any company envies greatly.


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User currently offlineElagabal From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2005, 201 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (9 years 6 months 2 weeks 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 2032 times:

Quoting FlyingTexan (Reply 22):
Last year, they carried more passengers in the US borders than any other carrier. They have high name recognition

Another twist: the way US airlines are going, what foreigners think of as "US flag carriers" will hardly count for much outside their hub cities in the US, while what Americans think of as their "flag carriers" might be almost unknown elsewhere outside travelling circles - unless WN goes international, of course. (I know JetBlue fly to the Caribbean, so yeah, watch this space. But still...)

It happened to Mickey Rourke, now it's UA's turn  biggrin 


User currently offlineJoost From Netherlands, joined Apr 2005, 3188 posts, RR: 4
Reply 24, posted (9 years 6 months 2 weeks 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 2026 times:

Quoting FlyinHigh (Reply 19):
- Meals on European flights
- 1st class on transatlantic service

Well, LX, IB and AA also don't offer free meals on European flights.

KLM, SAS, Finnair, Continental, Northwest, Delta, Air Canada, to name a few, don't offer 1st class on transatlantic. Are they all LCC's?

Actually, I think that Ireland can be happy with EI in the current shape. The succesfully competed with the LCC competition, which couldn't be any harder. The transformed their business model from an ol governement-institution to an efficient and profitable company, securing jobs in the country.

Evidently, there is in Ireland just not enough demand for the premium services, like Business on short-haul or First on long-haul. Ireland is a relatively small country, and no super-high-yielding market like Paris, London, Frankfurt, Zurich, New York, LA, or whatever.

What they do have is a population who likes to travel around affordably in Europe, and to some US destinations. The do offer 32" pitch in Y and PTV, unlike some other European airlines.

Not every market has enough people that feel like paying thousands of dollars for a relatively short transatlantic hop. But EI performs well in their market - what would you suggest, government support to offer transatlantic F-seats that are only used by people who get free upgrades?

This is the real world. And EI makes realistic choices.

[Edited 2005-06-16 11:17:35]

25 TKMCE : Air India, the givernment owned airline of India has recently launched a subsidiary Air India Express which have started flights from some Indian citi
26 RootsAir : ummm what intra euro routes do they have ???[Edited 2005-06-16 12:04:11]
27 Joost : Of course I meant domestic flights.
28 RootsAir : Oh sorry cause i may have not known that they operated between two cities in Europe after a stop over lets say! Just wondering about that.. Cheers BM
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