ClearedDirect From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 271 posts, RR: 0 Posted (7 years 11 months 2 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 6903 times:
POSTED: 6:35 am EDT June 13, 2005
UPDATED: 6:45 am EDT June 13, 2005
Federal air marshals grounded a U.S. Airways flight over the weekend.
It left Orlando on Sunday but was forced to land in Jacksonville, WESH 2 News reported.
Air marshals said they were uncomfortable with the actions of seven passengers in the first-class section of the jet, but they're not saying what those actions were.
Stay with WESH 2 News and WESH.com for further details.
Copyright 2005 by WESH.COM. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed.
ClearedDirect From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 271 posts, RR: 0 Reply 1, posted (7 years 11 months 2 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 6748 times:
Sorry,
My error in posting the exact article as written.
I am not sure how to edit it to just quote a line and the link.
Echster From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 396 posts, RR: 0 Reply 2, posted (7 years 11 months 2 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 6331 times:
I read this story off another news organization this morning. The 7 pax were using signals to communicate with one another. It freaked out the air marshals. The 7 pax turned out to be.......members of the US military. They were questioned and caught another flight to DC later that day.
ATLhomeCMH From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 770 posts, RR: 4 Reply 3, posted (7 years 11 months 2 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 6054 times:
Quoting Echster (Reply 3): I read this story off another news organization this morning. The 7 pax were using signals to communicate with one another. It freaked out the air marshals. The 7 pax turned out to be.......members of the US military. They were questioned and caught another flight to DC later that day.
Gotta love the paranoia
"The most terrifying words in the Engligh language are, 'I'm from the government and I'm here to help.'"-Ronald Reagan
Newark777 From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 9348 posts, RR: 33 Reply 5, posted (7 years 11 months 2 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 5968 times:
You make it seem as though the marshall knew they were with the military. If I saw a group of young men making hand signals on a plane, I would be a bit disturbed also. Maybe not enough to land the plane, but still disturbed. Also, being members of the military does not exclude you from scrutiny. Ask Tim McVeigh.
NYCFlyer From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 1381 posts, RR: 10 Reply 8, posted (7 years 11 months 2 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 5572 times:
Quoting Newark777 (Reply 5): You make it seem as though the marshall knew they were with the military. If I saw a group of young men making hand signals on a plane, I would be a bit disturbed also. Maybe not enough to land the plane, but still disturbed. Also, being members of the military does not exclude you from scrutiny. Ask Tim McVeigh.
Harry
I agree with you, Harry. But Irishjohn makes a good point too - why couldn't the FAMS have walked up to the guys and said, "what are you doing," rather than ordering the landing of the plane? Or maybe FAMS are simply not allowed to identify themselves, in which case their actions make sense.
This also raises another question: did the FAMS have a special means of contacting the Captain? They must have identified themselves to the flight crew, quietly, somehow. Normally, do the flight crew know who the FAMS are?
TheGreatChecko From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 1110 posts, RR: 3 Reply 9, posted (7 years 11 months 2 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 5449 times:
I sincerely doubt a FAM would all of a sudden get up and identify themselves, just to check IDs. To me that sounds like an awfully easy way for them to get identified and neutralized if someone wanted to try to hijack a plane these days.
I bet the flight crew didn't even know they were in the military (chances are they weren't in uniform), and honestly, they really should've been. I like it when I see some uniforms onboard when I fly. Not that it makes it any safer, but like most of the things the TSA has done, it LOOKS safer.
The FAM probably slipped the FA a note. I'm sure drunks do it all the time with their phone numbers.
GreatChecko
[Edited 2005-06-14 15:15:21]
"A pilot's plane she is. She will love you if you deserve it, and try to kill you if you don't...She is the Mighty Q400"
Deltadude8 From United States of America, joined Feb 2000, 569 posts, RR: 6 Reply 10, posted (7 years 11 months 2 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 5291 times:
well...from what all my friends in the airline business say- "We can pick out the AM's from a mile away" two members of my family on two different airlines both say "I know if its an AM"
ANCFlyer From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 11, posted (7 years 11 months 2 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 5131 times:
Quoting Hawk44 (Reply 6): The FAMS did their jobs but they should have been made aware that military service members would be on board.
Hence the reason I identfy myself (before and now, after retirement) to the flight crew as being military and of course, now a law enforcement officer.
Quoting Irishjohn (Reply 7): I suppose they never considered asking them what they were doing? Military traveling without proper identification?
Wouldn't want to tip my hand if I were two FAMs and there are 7 "suspect" individuals so close to the flight deck. The odds aren't good. Further, there was no guarantee to the FAMs there weren't other "suspect" individuals in the Y cabin. Properly played on this point by the FAMs IMHO. As for identification, I'm sure they all had proper ID. They simply weren't asked.
Quoting NYCFlyer (Reply 8): Normally, do the flight crew know who the FAMS are?
FLAIRPORT From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 12, posted (7 years 11 months 2 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 5082 times:
Quoting Irishjohn (Reply 7): I suppose they never considered asking them what they were doing? Military traveling without proper identification?
Safe sailing
John
Quoting NYCFlyer (Reply 8): I agree with you, Harry. But Irishjohn makes a good point too - why couldn't the FAMS have walked up to the guys and said, "what are you doing," rather than ordering the landing of the plane? Or maybe FAMS are simply not allowed to identify themselves, in which case their actions make sense.
So, why didn't the FAM ask the FAs to check it out? the FA could have gotten the military ID from them and all woud be well. I personally don't agree with the FAM program (for one reason the fact that they have guns and for another being that you don't know where they are or even if they are on your flight and most of the flights they are on are probably not flights that even an "amature" would target...ie short range flights...I do think that FAMs should be on all 757 and larger flights and all transcons/international flights) and I do think that they could have handled this much different.
Barney Captain From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 749 posts, RR: 14 Reply 13, posted (7 years 11 months 2 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 5038 times:
Quote: and for another being that you don't know where they are or even if they are on your flight
ANCFlyer From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 14, posted (7 years 11 months 2 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 4958 times:
Quoting FLAIRPORT (Reply 12): So, why didn't the FAM ask the FAs to check it out? the FA could have gotten the military ID from them and all woud be well
Like I just said Flairport . . . . . . .
Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 11): Wouldn't want to tip my hand if I were two FAMs and there are 7 "suspect" individuals so close to the flight deck. The odds aren't good. Further, there was no guarantee to the FAMs there weren't other "suspect" individuals in the Y cabin. Properly played on this point by the FAMs IMHO
Quoting FLAIRPORT (Reply 12): for another being that you don't know where they are or even if they are on your flight and most of the flights they are on are probably not flights that even an "amature" would target
YOU don't need to know . . .the flight crew will know who they are and where they are.
Your second point is based on what knowledge? Do YOU know which flights might be targeted? Please enlighten the rest of us as to how you came upon this wisdom? FYI . . .amature amateur
Planespotting From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 3438 posts, RR: 5 Reply 15, posted (7 years 11 months 2 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 4929 times:
the flight crew knows when Air Marshalls or LEO's are on the flight, but they don't know who or where they are sitting. AM's are also prohibited from identifying themselves unless an extreme situation occurs (which only includes stopping a perceived terrorist threat to the airplane itself). When i was with southwest they always said that they had no idea who the air marshalls were and didn't particularly care, just so long as they stepped up when the time was right
SATL382G From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 16, posted (7 years 11 months 2 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 4930 times:
Quoting Hawk44 (Reply 6): The FAMS did their jobs but they should have been made aware that military service members would be on board.
Depending on why (business v. personal) the airline may not have been aware of their occupation. To do what you suggest the airlines would probably have to ask everybody their occupation.
Quoting Irishjohn (Reply 7): Military traveling without proper identification?
Possible but not likely... too many bennies depend on that ID (Rental Car discounts, USO Lounge, etc)
Quoting TheGreatChecko (Reply 9): I like it when I see some uniforms onboard when I fly
Prior to 9/11 the US Air Force discouraged travel by members in uniform (to avoiding being targeted by terrorists). After, it was in fact encouraged to wear the uniform for the very reason you suggest on domestic flights.
Quoting FLAIRPORT (Reply 12): So, why didn't the FAM ask the FAs to check it out?
Why put the FAs in harms way, alarm the other pax, and alert a potential suspect? Better to defuse the situation on the ground.
Jumpseat70 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 17, posted (7 years 11 months 1 week 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 4772 times:
These FAMS did exactly the right thing.
By the way, FAMS are NEVER to reveal their identity in any way. The plan is always to put the plane on the ground, then make the move. I applaud their actions. To say that the agents or F/A's should know that the paxs in questions were military is ridiculous.
The flight crews and F/A's know EXACTLY where the FAMS and LEOS are sitting. They meet them prior to the passengers arrival, by the way.
The FAMS always know if LEOS are onboard, but the LEOS most likely are not aware of the FAMS. That's just the way the rules read.
ANCFlyer From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 19, posted (7 years 11 months 1 week 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 4687 times:
Quoting Jumpseat70 (Reply 17): but the LEOS most likely are not aware of the FAMS
In all the flights I've taken I have always told, discreetly, the crew that I am an LEO . . . most all tend to appreciate knowing this information (save one arrogant ass F/A from NW845 on 5/11/05). Never once have I been told, nor have I asked, if there were FAMs aboard. But I will almost guarantee they know I'm aboard.
Quoting Oldeuropean (Reply 18): Put some FAMS on Air Force One and let`s see what happens
Your point Alex? If it's humor, you missed, badly.
Hawk44 From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 759 posts, RR: 4 Reply 20, posted (7 years 11 months 1 week 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 4549 times:
Quoting Deltadude8 (Reply 10): well...from what all my friends in the airline business say- "We can pick out the AM's from a mile away" two members of my family on two different airlines both say "I know if its an AM"
You would be surprised most people have no clue and should never want to know.
Quoting Jumpseat70 (Reply 17): The FAMS always know if LEOS are onboard, but the LEOS most likely are not aware of the FAMS. That's just the way the rules read.
This is correct FAMS will know and usually the leo will know as well so if anything does go down you will not have a blue on blue incident.
Brons2 From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 2969 posts, RR: 5 Reply 21, posted (7 years 11 months 1 week 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 4516 times:
What kind of hand signals were these?
I'd be willing to bet money this whole thing is way overblown.
Firings, if well done, are good for employee morale.
Dragon-wings From United States of America, joined Apr 2001, 3920 posts, RR: 0 Reply 23, posted (7 years 11 months 1 week 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 4367 times:
Why couldn't the air marshals just observe the guys first and take action only if they started something?
Using hand signals should not be a reason for grounding a plane. If that is the case then deaf people should worry that their plane will be grounded by a air marshal when they get on a plane.
Hawk44 From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 759 posts, RR: 4 Reply 24, posted (7 years 11 months 1 week 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 4312 times:
Quoting Dragon-wings (Reply 23): Why couldn't the air marshals just observe the guys first and take action only if they started something?
Like what if they started to attempt to breach the cockpit at 35,000 ft? I don't know about you but I think it's much easier to handle a situation on the ground then it is in the air.
Hawk44
Never under estimate the power of US
25 Checkraiser: I don't get it either. It's obviously some sort of cheap shot but it just doesn't make any sense.
26 SkyexRamper: Normal military members traveling home or such after coming off active duty are normal people. They are listen normally and you won't know until they
27 Notdownnlocked: So let me ask you all this: Why are these FAMS people so paranoid? Do they not have faith in the fact that these people they were so worried about wer
28 Jetdeltamsy: Exactly correct. FAM's remain inconspicuous unless physical action on their part is required.
29 Jush: Yeah go and celebrate america's paranoia.... you rock!
30 JGPH1A: Hitting on the FA's with the old "I am Leo, what's YOUR sign ?" line - how 70's !
31 Hawk44: Paranoid is not the word, nothing is 100% and I know your trying to take a jab at the TSA and that's all good but bottom line is if I see a bunch of
32 Gilligan: Exactly, I agree with you. Play it up and start giving hand signals themselves and then just ask innocently if they are all traveling together. If no
33 Oldeuropean: Perhaps, because some of you are living on another planet. Axel
34 C172: The big question is: why were these military guys flying first class? Your tax dollars at work.
35 HAWK21M: Which Terrorist would admit their Intention The Flight Marshall would never disclose Identity. regds MEL
36 SkyexRamper: Maybe first class seats were the only ones open as coach was oversold. This being the case, the military guys might as spoke up about who they were a
37 RedAirForce: "Yeah go and celebrate america's paranoia.... you rock!" "Put some FAMS on Air Force One and let`s see what happens. " --- Man, you gotta love German
38 ANCFlyer: Drunk in bar trying to pick up someone, "Hi, , I'm Mike . . . . . . What's your sign? I'm a Feces!
39 Md80fanatic: I have always wondered about two groups of "terrorists" aboard a single aircraft. One groups starts a ruckus, thereby identifying all the present offi
40 Hawk44: I think this makes sense and thus the reason I thought the FAMS might be made aware that military service members were on board. Hawk44
41 Mikefad: Oh , I agree Checko. But we surely wouldn't want to offend anyone opposed to "the unjust war conceived by BUSH and his henchmen!!!!" Apparently the s
42 ScarletHarlot: Give me a break. I'm as left as they come but I still appreciate servicemen and women. I would have no problem seeing a man or woman in uniform. It's
43 B744F: It has more to do with wars fought for ridiculous reasons and people being "proud" of the violence they are apart of.
44 Thucydides: Hey Echster - Get your facts straight before commenting on a thread. The removed passengers were "Qatari military officials" and not members of the U
45 ClearedDirect: From the article... "The men appeared to know each other and were gesturing to each other, a spokesman for the air marshal service said. After the mar
47 JGPH1A: Ah, that's more like it. Who says racial profiling is a lost art ?
48 FlyingTexan: From The Washington Post - After the marshal reported the behavior to the crew, the Boeing 727-4000 with more than 140 passengers was diverted to Jack
49 FLAIRPORT: Also, people on active Military Duty get preference when flying (AKA they have to have a seat) and if first was the only thing open... After the mars
50 Thucydides: Um, I think that the mistaken bit about the aircraft came from the wire report. Its not like the Post had a reporter down in JAX interviewing the guy
51 CWAFlyer: Ah, that's more like it. Who says racial profiling is a lost art ? Who exactly brought those planes down on 9/11? The Norwegians?
52 JGPH1A: They were INDIVIDUALS ! It wasn't all 1 billion Muslims in the world, or all 200 million bearded Middle-Eastern/South Asian men. Just 19 sick twisted
53 ANCFlyer: ONLY if on Official Travel with Travel Orders. Horsepuckey, FLAIRPORT. If it had been seven anybodies gesturing with hand signals, it would arouse su
54 CWAFlyer: I understand just fine, thank you. I also understand that it's easy for people to preach to American's about tolerance and so forth. Whose airplanes a
56 JGPH1A: Seems to me that some people think that America is the only country in the world ever to have suffered a terrorist attack. Newsflash for yah, terrori
58 CWAFlyer: JGPH1A Yes, Europe and everyone has or has had their share of terriorsm. But I will ask you this. Has your country ever had a plane or planes hijacked
59 Sprout5199: One of the passengers on the Sunday flight, William Epke, said another passenger told him that the men deemed suspicious "were doing all kinds of fun
60 Hawk44: I think we all need to calm down and remember we are all fighting the same battles. People in America know all about Europe's problem with terrorism,
61 Aa757first: They weren't on duty. They were just Joe Somebodys going home to see their families. "Hi, Mr. 2C. Why are you making all of these really suspicious h
62 FLAIRPORT: The reason behind my fear...I don't like guns on planes plain and simple. You can have the worlds greatest sharp shooter on board and I'd still disag
63 Newark777: There is too much risk involved...aka accidnelty turing the safety off or something. So how do you feel about cops walking around with guns? There's
64 ANCFlyer: "Turning off the Safety". Never had much to do with weapons have you? Obviously. Unless Satan possesses the weapon, it's simply not going to "turn of
65 Bennett123: Gilligan My understanding is that the USN personnel were identified by their ID, not because they were in uniform?. What is a LEO?. Aa757first You say
67 Patrickj: Maybe they saved their pay while living in a tent in the desert keeping this country free so that you can make a stupid statement about why they shou
68 Gilligan: If Goldfinger can get sucked out of a plane than anybody can! I do believe he had his blue uniform on. Not the sailor suit but the dress uniform that
69 Aa757first: True, but what is the alternative? AAndrew
70 Thucydides: Andrew - a little minor rant of my own - please read the thread a bit more carefully, as I don't think that the Qatari military officials were "Joe S
71 Aa757first: Whoops, I guess your post didn't register. But my point still stands. Flight attendants, I would say, are often unaware of the fact memebers of the m
72 Boeing727flyer: Lucky they were not deaf - How would they react to a group of deaf passengers making hand signals to each other I wonder ?? Ahhhhh paranoia....or just
73 BandA: IMHO, the poor FAM did his job in this case, had he not stopped the Flight we would've had some middle-aged woman on TV sharing her "horror story" abo
74 Thucydides: AAndrew - let me just say that perhaps as you get older you should consider studying marketing. There is always a marketing person/team in every fort
76 Flyboy36y: Please, Ill be hard pressed to find ONE member of the enlisted ranks who would pay a penny more than he or she has to for airfare, let alone seven of
77 Prebennorholm: Huh, I can't help but wonder what would happen in case those FAMs were on for instance European charter flights. The way happy holiday makers behave,
Sponsor Message: 
From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 271 posts, 
From Russia, joined Nov 2004, 111 posts, 
Yes they do.
amateur 
From Germany, joined May 2005, 1902 posts, 
Printer friendly format 
