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Air Marshall Stops US Flight  
User currently offlineClearedDirect From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 271 posts, RR: 0
Posted (9 years 6 months 1 week 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 8127 times:

Does anyone have anymore details on this?


http://www.wesh.com//travelgetaways/...4600288/detail.html?subid=32100922


Air Marshals Ground U.S. Airways Flight

POSTED: 6:35 am EDT June 13, 2005
UPDATED: 6:45 am EDT June 13, 2005

Federal air marshals grounded a U.S. Airways flight over the weekend.


It left Orlando on Sunday but was forced to land in Jacksonville, WESH 2 News reported.

Air marshals said they were uncomfortable with the actions of seven passengers in the first-class section of the jet, but they're not saying what those actions were.

Stay with WESH 2 News and WESH.com for further details.
Copyright 2005 by WESH.COM. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed.

77 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineClearedDirect From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 271 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (9 years 6 months 1 week 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 7972 times:

Sorry,
My error in posting the exact article as written.

I am not sure how to edit it to just quote a line and the link.

My apologies.

CD


User currently offlineEchster From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 400 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (9 years 6 months 1 week 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 7555 times:

I read this story off another news organization this morning. The 7 pax were using signals to communicate with one another. It freaked out the air marshals. The 7 pax turned out to be.......members of the US military. They were questioned and caught another flight to DC later that day.

User currently offlineATLhomeCMH From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 770 posts, RR: 3
Reply 3, posted (9 years 6 months 1 week 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 7278 times:

Quoting Echster (Reply 3):
I read this story off another news organization this morning. The 7 pax were using signals to communicate with one another. It freaked out the air marshals. The 7 pax turned out to be.......members of the US military. They were questioned and caught another flight to DC later that day.

Gotta love the paranoia  Smile



"The most terrifying words in the Engligh language are, 'I'm from the government and I'm here to help.'"-Ronald Reagan
User currently offlineDLKAPA From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 4, posted (9 years 6 months 1 week 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 7216 times:

And all of a sudden our own military can't be trusted...wow.

User currently offlineNewark777 From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 9348 posts, RR: 29
Reply 5, posted (9 years 6 months 1 week 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 7192 times:

You make it seem as though the marshall knew they were with the military. If I saw a group of young men making hand signals on a plane, I would be a bit disturbed also. Maybe not enough to land the plane, but still disturbed. Also, being members of the military does not exclude you from scrutiny. Ask Tim McVeigh.

Harry



Why grab a Heine when you can grab a Busch?
User currently offlineHawk44 From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 759 posts, RR: 3
Reply 6, posted (9 years 6 months 1 week 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 6984 times:

Quoting Newark777 (Reply 9):
Also, being members of the military does not exclude you from scrutiny. Ask Tim McVeigh.

Exactly, before 9/11 the largest act of terrorism on US soil was committed by two white men who were sympathizers of Waco.

The FAMS did their jobs but they should have been made aware that military service members would be on board.

Hawk44



Never under estimate the power of US
User currently offlineIrishjohn From Russia, joined Nov 2004, 111 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (9 years 6 months 1 week 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 6820 times:

I suppose they never considered asking them what they were doing? Military traveling without proper identification?

Safe sailing
John


User currently offlineNYCFlyer From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 1388 posts, RR: 9
Reply 8, posted (9 years 6 months 1 week 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 6796 times:

Quoting Newark777 (Reply 5):
You make it seem as though the marshall knew they were with the military. If I saw a group of young men making hand signals on a plane, I would be a bit disturbed also. Maybe not enough to land the plane, but still disturbed. Also, being members of the military does not exclude you from scrutiny. Ask Tim McVeigh.

Harry

I agree with you, Harry. But Irishjohn makes a good point too - why couldn't the FAMS have walked up to the guys and said, "what are you doing," rather than ordering the landing of the plane? Or maybe FAMS are simply not allowed to identify themselves, in which case their actions make sense.

This also raises another question: did the FAMS have a special means of contacting the Captain? They must have identified themselves to the flight crew, quietly, somehow. Normally, do the flight crew know who the FAMS are?


User currently offlineTheGreatChecko From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 1130 posts, RR: 2
Reply 9, posted (9 years 6 months 1 week 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 6673 times:

I sincerely doubt a FAM would all of a sudden get up and identify themselves, just to check IDs. To me that sounds like an awfully easy way for them to get identified and neutralized if someone wanted to try to hijack a plane these days.

I bet the flight crew didn't even know they were in the military (chances are they weren't in uniform), and honestly, they really should've been. I like it when I see some uniforms onboard when I fly. Not that it makes it any safer, but like most of the things the TSA has done, it LOOKS safer.  Wink

The FAM probably slipped the FA a note. I'm sure drunks do it all the time with their phone numbers.  Silly

GreatChecko

[Edited 2005-06-14 15:15:21]


"A pilot's plane she is. She will love you if you deserve it, and try to kill you if you don't...She is the Mighty Q400"
User currently offlineDeltadude8 From United States of America, joined Feb 2000, 569 posts, RR: 4
Reply 10, posted (9 years 6 months 1 week 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 6515 times:

well...from what all my friends in the airline business say- "We can pick out the AM's from a mile away" two members of my family on two different airlines both say "I know if its an AM"

User currently offlineANCFlyer From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 11, posted (9 years 6 months 1 week 5 days ago) and read 6355 times:

Quoting Hawk44 (Reply 6):
The FAMS did their jobs but they should have been made aware that military service members would be on board.

Hence the reason I identfy myself (before and now, after retirement) to the flight crew as being military and of course, now a law enforcement officer.

Quoting Irishjohn (Reply 7):
I suppose they never considered asking them what they were doing? Military traveling without proper identification?

Wouldn't want to tip my hand if I were two FAMs and there are 7 "suspect" individuals so close to the flight deck. The odds aren't good. Further, there was no guarantee to the FAMs there weren't other "suspect" individuals in the Y cabin. Properly played on this point by the FAMs IMHO. As for identification, I'm sure they all had proper ID. They simply weren't asked.

Quoting NYCFlyer (Reply 8):
Normally, do the flight crew know who the FAMS are?

 yes  Yes they do.


User currently offlineFLAIRPORT From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 12, posted (9 years 6 months 1 week 5 days ago) and read 6306 times:

Quoting Irishjohn (Reply 7):
I suppose they never considered asking them what they were doing? Military traveling without proper identification?

Safe sailing
John



Quoting NYCFlyer (Reply 8):
I agree with you, Harry. But Irishjohn makes a good point too - why couldn't the FAMS have walked up to the guys and said, "what are you doing," rather than ordering the landing of the plane? Or maybe FAMS are simply not allowed to identify themselves, in which case their actions make sense.

So, why didn't the FAM ask the FAs to check it out? the FA could have gotten the military ID from them and all woud be well. I personally don't agree with the FAM program (for one reason the fact that they have guns and for another being that you don't know where they are or even if they are on your flight and most of the flights they are on are probably not flights that even an "amature" would target...ie short range flights...I do think that FAMs should be on all 757 and larger flights and all transcons/international flights) and I do think that they could have handled this much different.


User currently offlineBarney Captain From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 998 posts, RR: 12
Reply 13, posted (9 years 6 months 1 week 5 days ago) and read 6262 times:

Quote:
and for another being that you don't know where they are or even if they are on your flight

Exactly  Wink



...from the Banana Republic....
User currently offlineANCFlyer From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 14, posted (9 years 6 months 1 week 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 6182 times:

Quoting FLAIRPORT (Reply 12):
So, why didn't the FAM ask the FAs to check it out? the FA could have gotten the military ID from them and all woud be well

Like I just said Flairport . . . . . . .

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 11):
Wouldn't want to tip my hand if I were two FAMs and there are 7 "suspect" individuals so close to the flight deck. The odds aren't good. Further, there was no guarantee to the FAMs there weren't other "suspect" individuals in the Y cabin. Properly played on this point by the FAMs IMHO



Quoting FLAIRPORT (Reply 12):
for another being that you don't know where they are or even if they are on your flight and most of the flights they are on are probably not flights that even an "amature" would target

YOU don't need to know . . .the flight crew will know who they are and where they are.

Your second point is based on what knowledge? Do YOU know which flights might be targeted? Please enlighten the rest of us as to how you came upon this wisdom? FYI . . .amature  no  amateur  yes 


User currently offlinePlanespotting From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 3539 posts, RR: 5
Reply 15, posted (9 years 6 months 1 week 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 6153 times:

the flight crew knows when Air Marshalls or LEO's are on the flight, but they don't know who or where they are sitting. AM's are also prohibited from identifying themselves unless an extreme situation occurs (which only includes stopping a perceived terrorist threat to the airplane itself). When i was with southwest they always said that they had no idea who the air marshalls were and didn't particularly care, just so long as they stepped up when the time was right


Do you like movies about gladiators?
User currently offlineSATL382G From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 16, posted (9 years 6 months 1 week 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 6154 times:

Quoting Hawk44 (Reply 6):
The FAMS did their jobs but they should have been made aware that military service members would be on board.

Depending on why (business v. personal) the airline may not have been aware of their occupation. To do what you suggest the airlines would probably have to ask everybody their occupation.

Quoting Irishjohn (Reply 7):
Military traveling without proper identification?

Possible but not likely... too many bennies depend on that ID (Rental Car discounts, USO Lounge, etc)

Quoting TheGreatChecko (Reply 9):
I like it when I see some uniforms onboard when I fly

Prior to 9/11 the US Air Force discouraged travel by members in uniform (to avoiding being targeted by terrorists). After, it was in fact encouraged to wear the uniform for the very reason you suggest on domestic flights.

Quoting FLAIRPORT (Reply 12):
So, why didn't the FAM ask the FAs to check it out?

Why put the FAs in harms way, alarm the other pax, and alert a potential suspect? Better to defuse the situation on the ground.


User currently offlineJumpseat70 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 17, posted (9 years 6 months 1 week 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 5996 times:

These FAMS did exactly the right thing.

By the way, FAMS are NEVER to reveal their identity in any way. The plan is always to put the plane on the ground, then make the move. I applaud their actions. To say that the agents or F/A's should know that the paxs in questions were military is ridiculous.

The flight crews and F/A's know EXACTLY where the FAMS and LEOS are sitting. They meet them prior to the passengers arrival, by the way.

The FAMS always know if LEOS are onboard, but the LEOS most likely are not aware of the FAMS. That's just the way the rules read.


User currently offlineOldeuropean From Germany, joined May 2005, 2091 posts, RR: 4
Reply 18, posted (9 years 6 months 1 week 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 5965 times:

Put some FAMS on Air Force One and let`s see what happens.  rotfl   rotfl 

Axel  rotfl 



Wer nichts weiss muss alles glauben
User currently offlineANCFlyer From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 19, posted (9 years 6 months 1 week 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 5911 times:

Quoting Jumpseat70 (Reply 17):
but the LEOS most likely are not aware of the FAMS

In all the flights I've taken I have always told, discreetly, the crew that I am an LEO . . . most all tend to appreciate knowing this information (save one arrogant ass F/A from NW845 on 5/11/05). Never once have I been told, nor have I asked, if there were FAMs aboard. But I will almost guarantee they know I'm aboard.

Quoting Oldeuropean (Reply 18):
Put some FAMS on Air Force One and let`s see what happens

Your point Alex? If it's humor, you missed, badly.  expressionless 


User currently offlineHawk44 From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 759 posts, RR: 3
Reply 20, posted (9 years 6 months 1 week 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 5773 times:

Quoting Deltadude8 (Reply 10):
well...from what all my friends in the airline business say- "We can pick out the AM's from a mile away" two members of my family on two different airlines both say "I know if its an AM"

You would be surprised most people have no clue and should never want to know.

Quoting Jumpseat70 (Reply 17):
The FAMS always know if LEOS are onboard, but the LEOS most likely are not aware of the FAMS. That's just the way the rules read.

This is correct FAMS will know and usually the leo will know as well so if anything does go down you will not have a blue on blue incident.

Hawk44



Never under estimate the power of US
User currently offlineBrons2 From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 3017 posts, RR: 4
Reply 21, posted (9 years 6 months 1 week 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 5740 times:

What kind of hand signals were these?

I'd be willing to bet money this whole thing is way overblown.



Firings, if well done, are good for employee morale.
User currently offlineNumberTwelve From Germany, joined exactly 10 years ago today! , 1431 posts, RR: 9
Reply 22, posted (9 years 6 months 1 week 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 5648 times:

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 19):
Quoting Oldeuropean (Reply 18):
Put some FAMS on Air Force One and let`s see what happens

Your point Alex? If it's humor, you missed, badly.

Why, ANCFlyer? Because you didn't like the joke? Where is your humour?



signature censored by admin - so check my profile
User currently offlineDragon-wings From United States of America, joined Apr 2001, 3996 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (9 years 6 months 1 week 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 5591 times:

Why couldn't the air marshals just observe the guys first and take action only if they started something?

Using hand signals should not be a reason for grounding a plane. If that is the case then deaf people should worry that their plane will be grounded by a air marshal when they get on a plane.



Don't give up don't ever give up - Jim Valvano
User currently offlineHawk44 From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 759 posts, RR: 3
Reply 24, posted (9 years 6 months 1 week 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 5536 times:

Quoting Dragon-wings (Reply 23):
Why couldn't the air marshals just observe the guys first and take action only if they started something?

Like what if they started to attempt to breach the cockpit at 35,000 ft? I don't know about you but I think it's much easier to handle a situation on the ground then it is in the air.

Hawk44



Never under estimate the power of US
25 Checkraiser : I don't get it either. It's obviously some sort of cheap shot but it just doesn't make any sense.
26 SkyexRamper : Normal military members traveling home or such after coming off active duty are normal people. They are listen normally and you won't know until they
27 Notdownnlocked : So let me ask you all this: Why are these FAMS people so paranoid? Do they not have faith in the fact that these people they were so worried about wer
28 Jetdeltamsy : Exactly correct. FAM's remain inconspicuous unless physical action on their part is required.
29 Jush : Yeah go and celebrate america's paranoia.... you rock!
30 Post contains images JGPH1A : Hitting on the FA's with the old "I am Leo, what's YOUR sign ?" line - how 70's !
31 Hawk44 : Paranoid is not the word, nothing is 100% and I know your trying to take a jab at the TSA and that's all good but bottom line is if I see a bunch of
32 Gilligan : Exactly, I agree with you. Play it up and start giving hand signals themselves and then just ask innocently if they are all traveling together. If no
33 Post contains images Oldeuropean : Perhaps, because some of you are living on another planet. Axel
34 C172 : The big question is: why were these military guys flying first class? Your tax dollars at work.
35 Post contains images HAWK21M : Which Terrorist would admit their Intention The Flight Marshall would never disclose Identity. regds MEL
36 SkyexRamper : Maybe first class seats were the only ones open as coach was oversold. This being the case, the military guys might as spoke up about who they were a
37 RedAirForce : "Yeah go and celebrate america's paranoia.... you rock!" "Put some FAMS on Air Force One and let`s see what happens. " --- Man, you gotta love German
38 Post contains images ANCFlyer : Drunk in bar trying to pick up someone, "Hi, , I'm Mike . . . . . . What's your sign? I'm a Feces!
39 Post contains images Md80fanatic : I have always wondered about two groups of "terrorists" aboard a single aircraft. One groups starts a ruckus, thereby identifying all the present offi
40 Hawk44 : I think this makes sense and thus the reason I thought the FAMS might be made aware that military service members were on board. Hawk44
41 Mikefad : Oh , I agree Checko. But we surely wouldn't want to offend anyone opposed to "the unjust war conceived by BUSH and his henchmen!!!!" Apparently the s
42 Post contains images ScarletHarlot : Give me a break. I'm as left as they come but I still appreciate servicemen and women. I would have no problem seeing a man or woman in uniform. It's
43 B744F : It has more to do with wars fought for ridiculous reasons and people being "proud" of the violence they are apart of.
44 Post contains links Thucydides : Hey Echster - Get your facts straight before commenting on a thread. The removed passengers were "Qatari military officials" and not members of the U
45 ClearedDirect : From the article... "The men appeared to know each other and were gesturing to each other, a spokesman for the air marshal service said. After the mar
46 B744F : wow that must be a new design!! haha
47 JGPH1A : Ah, that's more like it. Who says racial profiling is a lost art ?
48 FlyingTexan : From The Washington Post - After the marshal reported the behavior to the crew, the Boeing 727-4000 with more than 140 passengers was diverted to Jack
49 FLAIRPORT : Also, people on active Military Duty get preference when flying (AKA they have to have a seat) and if first was the only thing open... After the mars
50 Thucydides : Um, I think that the mistaken bit about the aircraft came from the wire report. Its not like the Post had a reporter down in JAX interviewing the guy
51 CWAFlyer : Ah, that's more like it. Who says racial profiling is a lost art ? Who exactly brought those planes down on 9/11? The Norwegians?
52 JGPH1A : They were INDIVIDUALS ! It wasn't all 1 billion Muslims in the world, or all 200 million bearded Middle-Eastern/South Asian men. Just 19 sick twisted
53 Post contains images ANCFlyer : ONLY if on Official Travel with Travel Orders. Horsepuckey, FLAIRPORT. If it had been seven anybodies gesturing with hand signals, it would arouse su
54 CWAFlyer : I understand just fine, thank you. I also understand that it's easy for people to preach to American's about tolerance and so forth. Whose airplanes a
55 SkyexRamper : Yes, this is too true.
56 JGPH1A : Seems to me that some people think that America is the only country in the world ever to have suffered a terrorist attack. Newsflash for yah, terrori
57 HAWK21M : Dont Forget India. regds MEL
58 CWAFlyer : JGPH1A Yes, Europe and everyone has or has had their share of terriorsm. But I will ask you this. Has your country ever had a plane or planes hijacked
59 Sprout5199 : One of the passengers on the Sunday flight, William Epke, said another passenger told him that the men deemed suspicious "were doing all kinds of fun
60 Hawk44 : I think we all need to calm down and remember we are all fighting the same battles. People in America know all about Europe's problem with terrorism,
61 Aa757first : They weren't on duty. They were just Joe Somebodys going home to see their families. "Hi, Mr. 2C. Why are you making all of these really suspicious h
62 FLAIRPORT : The reason behind my fear...I don't like guns on planes plain and simple. You can have the worlds greatest sharp shooter on board and I'd still disag
63 Newark777 : There is too much risk involved...aka accidnelty turing the safety off or something. So how do you feel about cops walking around with guns? There's
64 Post contains images ANCFlyer : "Turning off the Safety". Never had much to do with weapons have you? Obviously. Unless Satan possesses the weapon, it's simply not going to "turn of
65 Bennett123 : Gilligan My understanding is that the USN personnel were identified by their ID, not because they were in uniform?. What is a LEO?. Aa757first You say
66 Hawk44 : Law Enforcement Officer Hawk44
67 Patrickj : Maybe they saved their pay while living in a tent in the desert keeping this country free so that you can make a stupid statement about why they shou
68 Post contains images Gilligan : If Goldfinger can get sucked out of a plane than anybody can! I do believe he had his blue uniform on. Not the sailor suit but the dress uniform that
69 Aa757first : True, but what is the alternative? AAndrew
70 Post contains links Thucydides : Andrew - a little minor rant of my own - please read the thread a bit more carefully, as I don't think that the Qatari military officials were "Joe S
71 Post contains links Aa757first : Whoops, I guess your post didn't register. But my point still stands. Flight attendants, I would say, are often unaware of the fact memebers of the m
72 Boeing727flyer : Lucky they were not deaf - How would they react to a group of deaf passengers making hand signals to each other I wonder ?? Ahhhhh paranoia....or just
73 BandA : IMHO, the poor FAM did his job in this case, had he not stopped the Flight we would've had some middle-aged woman on TV sharing her "horror story" abo
74 Thucydides : AAndrew - let me just say that perhaps as you get older you should consider studying marketing. There is always a marketing person/team in every fort
75 Post contains images Hawk44 : Now that was funny! Hawk44
76 Flyboy36y : Please, Ill be hard pressed to find ONE member of the enlisted ranks who would pay a penny more than he or she has to for airfare, let alone seven of
77 Prebennorholm : Huh, I can't help but wonder what would happen in case those FAMs were on for instance European charter flights. The way happy holiday makers behave,
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