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Dead Commuter Jet Pilots "wanted To Have Fun"  
User currently offlineGoAllegheny From United States of America, joined Nov 2000, 340 posts, RR: 0
Posted (9 years 4 months 1 week 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 21298 times:

This is unbelieveable - two Pinnacle (Northwest affiliate) pilots ferrying an empty Bombardier commuter jet last October decided to take it to 41'000 feet for "fun," both engines quit, plane crashed, they died. I feel sympathy for their families. However, like the drunken AmWest pilots in Florida, this gives all pilots a bad name.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20050613/...on_re_us/plane_crash_investigation

130 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineNkops From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 2669 posts, RR: 6
Reply 1, posted (9 years 4 months 1 week 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 21236 times:

Years ago (while at a different airline) we had a BE pilot roll the plane on a ferry flight to see what would happen... Needless to say he was fired.. I'm sure there are more stories like this too.


I have no association with Spirit Airlines
User currently offlineYyz717 From Canada, joined Sep 2001, 16307 posts, RR: 56
Reply 2, posted (9 years 4 months 1 week 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 21154 times:

Isn't the CRJ certified to 41k? If so, their altitude may not be related to the engine failure.


Panam, TWA, Ansett, Eastern.......AC next? Might be good for Canada.
User currently offlineDeltaA380 From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 84 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (9 years 4 months 1 week 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 21119 times:

Well, at least their place in this year's Darwin Award's is assured... seems like the Pinnacle of stupidity to me.

That being said; I too feel sympathy for their friends and families.



Vote Democratic in '06 and '08
User currently offlineKahala777 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 4, posted (9 years 4 months 1 week 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 21090 times:

Northwest Airlines and its PR department have to be shaking their heads over this one!

Aloha,

Kahala777


User currently offlineNYC777 From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 5790 posts, RR: 47
Reply 5, posted (9 years 4 months 1 week 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 21065 times:

Did ATC ever clear them for that altitude?


That which does not kill me makes me stronger.
User currently offlineJblake1 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 292 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (9 years 4 months 1 week 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 20989 times:

Not only the ATC question, but at the FL wouldn't they have been able to glide for some period of time; and get those jets restarted? Guess we'll have to wait until the full report comes out.

User currently offlineLee From United Kingdom, joined May 2005, 148 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (9 years 4 months 1 week 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 20920 times:

Quoting Jblake1 (Reply 6):
wouldn't they have been able to glide for some period of time; and get those jets restarted? Guess we'll have to wait until the full report comes out.

exactly what i was thinking.


User currently offlineNewark777 From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 9348 posts, RR: 29
Reply 8, posted (9 years 4 months 1 week 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 20881 times:

There was a very long thread on this awhile back when it happened, and it seems the pilot's comment may have been taken a bit out of context. The plane was indeed certified to that altitude, so don't go crucifying the pilots right away.

Harry



Why grab a Heine when you can grab a Busch?
User currently offlineAa777jr From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 9, posted (9 years 4 months 1 week 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 20878 times:

Anyone that is a member of this site knows how much you have to go through to become a pilot. This is the most ridiculous thing I've ever read. "Lets have some fun!" Just like the HP pilots that tried to fly drunk, I don't have any sympathy for stupidity.

Regards.


User currently offline1millionflyer From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 10, posted (9 years 4 months 1 week 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 20802 times:

Quoting NYC777 (Reply 5):
Did ATC ever clear them for that altitude?

The pilots asked for the altitude, they were responsible for being up there.

The PIC of the aircraft is responsible for the safe operation of the aircraft, the controller really has no say.


User currently offlineCaptTu From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 16 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (9 years 4 months 1 week 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 20785 times:

Yes the CRJ is certified to FL410.

Yes they were cleared to FL410.

The 'have some fun comment' was small talk with ATC.

Remember that the next time that something you have said was taken out of context. Hopefully you'll be around to defend yourself.

BTW... the NTSB public hearings are live starting today... scheduled to run from June 13-15 starting at 9am eastern time.

http://www.ntsb.gov/events/hearing_sched.htm

Should be some interesting proceedings.


User currently offlineFinnWings From Finland, joined Oct 2003, 640 posts, RR: 2
Reply 12, posted (9 years 4 months 1 week 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 20757 times:

Yes, they wanted to have fun and climbed to FL410... However, CRJ200 is certified for that altitude so there shouldn't be a problem at all. This is more a journalist thing again as they don't know what they are talking about. Lesson number one is that don't EVER believe what journalists write about aviation as there is almost always wrong information. This aircraft was not crashed because pilots were having fun but because they experienced flame out of both engines for some reason on normal cruise flight when flying at service ceiling. It isn't wrong to climb for a max altitude "for fun" if the plane is flown according to operation manual.

Best Regards,
FinnWings


User currently offlineContnlEliteCMH From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 1464 posts, RR: 44
Reply 13, posted (9 years 4 months 1 week 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 20707 times:

I think you guys should read the article more carefully before making some of these comments. Important things may be found therein, like:

(1) The plane is certified for 41,000 ft.
(2) There are strict procedures for flying that high.
(3) There is a question as to how well the pilots were trained.

It seems to me, then, that there is something else at work here. The CRJ is an advanced airplane, capable of maintaining itself within the close parameters necessary for flying at 41,000 feet. If anything, I would have questioned what the pilots did *after* the first engine failed. Don't know about you guys, but the first thing I'm doing when one engine fails at 41k is to make for a lower altitude, *as fast as I can*.

All in all, we don't know anything else. What was their airspeed when the the first engine flamed out? What was their reaction? If they had 5 to 10 minutes' glide time, why couldn't they make an airport? Did one of them "fly the airplane" while the other performed troubleshooting, or did they just lose their minds? Something is fishy here, and it's not flying the plane at its rated altitude.



Christianity. Islam. Hinduism. Anthropogenic Global Warming. All are matters of faith!
User currently offlinePlanesNTrains From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 5622 posts, RR: 29
Reply 14, posted (9 years 4 months 1 week 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 20677 times:

Quoting DeltaA380 (Reply 3):
Well, at least their place in this year's Darwin Award's is assured... seems like the Pinnacle of stupidity to me.

That being said; I too feel sympathy for their friends and families.

Well, it wasn't like they went nuts or suicidal. I think we can extend just a little compassion to them as well. I'm not a pilot, and obviously things went horribly wrong, but to proclaim them Darwin award winners over an incomplete investigation seems very cavalier.

Are there other airline employees reading this who feel the same as Delta380? I can't imagine getting killed on the job, perhaps due to my own fault, and having others call me a Darwin award winner.

Wierd industry.

-Dave



Next Trip: SEA-ABQ-SEA on Alaska
User currently offlinePITrules From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 3211 posts, RR: 6
Reply 15, posted (9 years 4 months 1 week 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 20610 times:

Their "stupidity" was a result of poor training by the company, and the fact that this aircraft is certified to fly at FL410, as stated in the article. These facts lead to a bad decision to fly at FL410. The "Lets have some fun" quote does not imply anything of substance, other than the crew wanting to take the opportunity to fly at FL410 when they could (with an empty airplane). A decision that shows lack of experience in this aircraft, but nothing more. Pilots know that violating "bottle to throttle" rules are illegal and unsafe. Wanting to fly an airplane at it's certified FL is not illegal and should not be unsafe either. Comparing the America West crew to this crew is ridiculous.

Stop armchair quarterbacking, and let the NTSB do the work on this one.



FLYi
User currently offlineBarney Captain From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 970 posts, RR: 13
Reply 16, posted (9 years 4 months 1 week 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 20598 times:

This just doesn't add up. Sure, he may have said "Let's have a little fun", but flying an aircraft to it's maximum certified altitude can hardly be considered reckless. I've never understood this accident, there seems as if something else was amiss, quite possibly through no fault of the crew. The reason ATC commented that they rarely see the CRJ that high is simple; it needs to be very light (as was the case) to achieve the higher FL's. Without knowing what else was going on, I would hardly grant these two guys the "Darwin Award", or equate them with the HP pilots in MIA.


...from the Banana Republic....
User currently offlineLee From United Kingdom, joined May 2005, 148 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (9 years 4 months 1 week 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 20576 times:

Quoting ContnlEliteCMH (Reply 13):
don't know about you guys, but the first thing I'm doing when one engine fails at 41k is to make for a lower altitude, *as fast as I can*.

i dont fly twins but i would have thought the first thing i would do would be to find a suitable airport and try and troubleshoot the problem. descending would only give you less time to find somewhere safe to land.


User currently offlineFLAIRPORT From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 18, posted (9 years 4 months 1 week 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 20576 times:

Quoting DeltaA380 (Reply 3):
Well, at least their place in this year's Darwin Award's is assured... seems like the Pinnacle of stupidity to me.

pun intended? (Pinnacle Airline and Pinnacle of Stupidity)


User currently offlineGEG From United States of America, joined exactly 10 years ago today! , 299 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (9 years 4 months 1 week 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 20529 times:

Has it come out why they had dual engine failure? And as why they were unsuccessful in restarting them? Was this a fuel system problem or just bad luck to happen at FL410?


Cant sleep...clowns will eat me...cant sleep...
User currently offlineCaptTu From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 16 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (9 years 4 months 1 week 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 20531 times:

From http://www.ntsb.gov/events/2005/Pinnacle/agenda.htm

Witness number 8 and some of the issues that will be talked about...

Air restarts
Bombardier ‘core lock’ history
CRJ and ‘core lock’
Flight Test Procedure changes to address ‘core lock’
Flight Test Procedure data – occurrence rates
APU and 21K limitation

Core lock is something I've never heard about.


User currently offline1MillionFlyer From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 21, posted (9 years 4 months 1 week 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 20500 times:

Quoting Lee (Reply 17):
descending would only give you less time to find somewhere safe to land.

you need to get down to lower altitude for more oxygen in the air in order to restart as well as get out of "coffin corner" as the speed bleeds off with the lose of an engine.


User currently offlineGEG From United States of America, joined exactly 10 years ago today! , 299 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (9 years 4 months 1 week 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 20473 times:

What is core lock?

-Dan



Cant sleep...clowns will eat me...cant sleep...
User currently offlineRedngold From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 6907 posts, RR: 44
Reply 23, posted (9 years 4 months 1 week 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 20474 times:

Coffin corner, anyone?

41K may be certified, but I wonder about the maximum airspeed at such an altitude. Regardless of the weight of the aircraft, there has to be some risk associated with pushing more than one critical factor.


redngold



Up, up and away!
User currently offlinePITrules From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 3211 posts, RR: 6
Reply 24, posted (9 years 4 months 1 week 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 20322 times:

core lock - The core of an engine is locked, specifically the high pressure compressor and turbine. This may happen as a result of expansion due to engine temperature limitations being exceeded, or the result of other physical damage to the engine.

coffin corner - With respect to airspeed, as altitude increases the difference between stall speed and maximum allowable airspeed decreases. At very high altitudes, the difference between stall and max. airspeed may be very small (perhaps only 10-15 knots in some aircraft). Therefore, it does not take much to exceed one of these limitations, getting one self into trouble.



FLYi
25 GoAllegheny : I am certain that there is more to this story than has been reported - perhaps my comparison to the AmWest pilots was wrong. I look forward to the fin
26 Kaneporta1 : Although flying at 410 is tricky, for the reasons PITrules explained, and has been demonstrated in the past by that China Airlines 747SP that lost an
27 LTBEWR : Don't forget that this a/c was being ferried after having mechanical problems earler in that day. Going to the higher and near max certified altitude
28 Tornado82 : It was discussed in the earlier thread on here that "Have some fun" meant that a CRJ-200 with a Pax/fuel load would never have the wing/power to make
29 Azjubilee : Any of you brilliant armchair quarterbacking flightsim wanna be pilots ever think about the tempurature on that day? Sure the plane can go to FL410...
30 Loggat : I agree with Azjubilee... The CRJ cannot go up to FL410 with certain temps and weights. This information would be found in the supplemental performanc
31 Bucky707 : I would not read too much into the "have some fun" comment. One of the best and most professional captains I ever flew with would make the comment "le
32 Jeb94 : Where an aircraft is certified to fly is often more a pressurization deal. The MD80 for instance is certified to fl370 but is capable of flying higher
33 AMSSFO : Is it already available online somewhere? Can't find it.
34 Lowrider : Having read the transcript and being somewhat familiar with the CRJ, it comes down to this: The aircraft was allowed to get too slow at 41. The crew d
35 Travatl : All of this JUDGEMENT by immature, ignorant, blowhards is why I've come to loathe a.net. These men perished...yet so many here are quick to point out
36 B744F : So what if they made a comment like wanting to have fun? What's the big deal? There were no passengers and they just had to get the airplane from one
37 Jetdeltamsy : hard to believe...and very sad.
38 Azjubilee : Travatl - sometimes the truth hurts. Let's not burry our heads in the sand and ignore the problems shall we? As a pilot we always learn from those who
39 XFSUgimpLB41X : I can't find the transcript...what is the link to it? This "core lock" thing is interesting. Doesn't exactly negate the fact that many many things wer
40 BoeingPride800 : Man. just goes to show you that people can be so stupid sometimes.
41 Post contains links Azjubilee : XFSU - You'll find all the info at www.ntsb.gov AZJ[Edited 2005-06-14 03:41:04]
42 Post contains images JBirdAV8r : And I don't have any sympathy for liars. But hey For an "attorney" you sure do seem to jump to conclusions rather quickly...
43 Ikramerica : True about most things, not just aviation. Most journalists have very little education beyond journalism classes, and there, you don't learn much. Ye
44 Post contains images Newark777 : And I don't have any sympathy for liars. But hey Wink For an "attorney" you sure do seem to jump to conclusions rather quickly... If he had been the p
45 Qwerty : This is the boomerang thread. It just keeps coming back. I think the only take away from this incident is that 41k or not, whatever this or that: 41,0
46 Azjubilee : Here's an interesting explanation of "core lock." Take this information and apply it to the CVR transcript and you can see WHY there was a dual engine
47 Theredbaron : After reading this sensible post, and your RR of 23, I must say you deserve al least twice your RR. Great ....thumbs up Best regards TRB
48 Post contains images Newark777 : Here's an interesting explanation of "core lock." Take this information and apply it to the CVR transcript and you can see WHY there was a dual engine
49 Post contains links CaptTu : http://www.alpa.org/DesktopModules/A...temid=1616&ModuleId=1316&Tabid=256 Only one page of info... but it gets the point across.
50 Post contains images Newark777 : Only one page of info... but it gets the point across. Very interesting read, thanks. Harry
51 Soaringadi : Well.... u really dont have any other chioce. Thats exactly what I'm confused with. I'm leaning towards a stall here, or else it would be hard to fin
52 Wjcandee : If you look at the slides in today's presentation by the chief investigator, several show pages from the procedural manual for engine relights, both s
53 9ETRNG : I would like to point out that once both engine were lost, the crew did INFACT FOLLOW THE CORRECT PROCEDURES, AND RAN THE CHECKLISTS TO THE BEST OF TH
54 ComeAndGo : Did you guys read the article? It says that the pilots ignored repeated stall warnings on the way up to 41K feet. They were climbing the plane too ha
55 SparkyN501 : I may just be slow...but I can't find the transcripts. does someone have a good link?
56 Post contains links ScarletHarlot : CVR transcript is here. http://www.ntsb.gov/Events/2005/Pinnacle/exhibits/CVR_Factual.pdf
57 Lincoln : Somewhere in my collection 'o' quotes I have something to the effect of "If an earthquake suddenly opened a fissure in a runway that caused an accide
58 Post contains links Wjcandee : Here's the sad part, and I now see why the start procedures were highlighted in the docket. It isn't that they didn't follow the procedures, although
59 Contrails : Where did the airline find these people? They sound like a couple of teenagers taking a joyride in a parent's car. I think somebody needs to tighten t
60 Post contains links and images BlueShamu330s : http://www.flightinternational.com/A...Double+flame-out+downs+CRJ200.html http://www.flightinternational.com/A...t+down+after+41%2c000ft+stall.html ht
61 AirWest : This is old news anyway. The earlier mechanical problem on that airplane was a broken hydraulic line and was fixed in LIT, where the plane was ferried
62 Skyhawk62507 : After reading the CVR transcript, my first thought was that maybe the pilots were suffering from some degree of hypoxia..?
63 Patrickj : There are many unanswered questions in the ascertain that the pilots were doing something "wrong" by being at 410. First, any aircraft certified to 41
64 Richierich : What a heartless comment. It seems that these guys made a mistake and, unfortunately, it cost them their lives. They didn't put any one else in dange
65 CaptOveur : Safe bet that no matter what REALLY happened on that flight the NTSB will fall over itself trying to pin the cause on "pilot error" They can't have pe
66 Kaneporta1 : Ok, I just read the CVR transcript and it does indeed look like pilot error. To start with, there's nothing wrong with flying up to FL410 but it's obv
67 B744F : Can somebody tell me why there was no "too low, flaps" warning? did they have the flaps down??? why???? After briefly reading that it seems as if they
68 Patrickj : If the certified ceiling is 410 then they should not have been up there, much less able to get up there unless adequate buffet margins existed. The l
69 Post contains links ComeAndGo : It's actually quiet common for pilots to go on joy rides during ferry flights. It's the only chance they have to push the limits of the aircraft with
70 1MillionFlyer : what is amazing to me is they had 20 minutes from the initial problem until impact, I can't beleive even with that much time they still had that terri
71 Wukka : After reading the CVR transcript, it really does look like a case of "joyriding" syndrome. I don't know about any of you, but I remember plenty of tim
72 N766UA : So did the pilots lie to ATC? They told center they had 1 engine running yet 1 min later they state "let's start #2 first" indicating that both were f
73 Post contains links Wjcandee : Nobody has mentioned the following -- these guys were in a very serious situation even before the engines flamed out. From the human factors report on
74 Checkraiser : " target=_blank>http://www.ntsb.gov/Events/2005/Pinn...9.pdf After reading this document and the detail about the captain it makes me wonder if he was
75 Wukka : Yes, they did. Just off of transcript alone, as well as the warnings firing in the cockpit, it was pretty obvious that they had lost all but essentia
76 Wjcandee : One other thing: there has been some discussion on here about what an aircraft's "service ceiling" is. Here's how the NTSB defines it, in footnote 16
77 N766UA : You know, if they had said both were flamed out from the start.. perhaps ATC would have taken them more seriously and they might have lived? Seems to
78 N867BX : The media coverage of this event really pisses me off. I watched the ABC evening news and the anchorman states "the pilots were flying the plane highe
79 Wukka : As nothing more than morbid curiosity, I'd like to hear the actual recordings. Many controllers have picked up on the distress in the voice of the pe
80 Revelation : I find it hard to buy into your point of view, especially after reading the transcripts and the human factors report. It's easy to judge with 20/20 h
81 Cancidas : what a waste of a good airplane... i've always maintained that it's the stupid pilot that gets himself killed. now, i'm all about enjoying myself when
82 Jonathan L : I just want to say thanks to the people who provided the links on this thread to the NTSB information. All of the media reports I read of this seemed
83 Baw716 : Does that aircraft have a RAT? I can't understand why they would lose everything if the engines died....there had to be some back up in case both engi
84 Wjcandee : BAW716: A couple of answers to your questions, from the NTSB report, at least as far as I interpret it: The a/c does have a RAT. On the CRJ, it's call
85 Revelation : baw716, you may want to follow the links above and read the information. If my reading is correct, the APU never went out, so RAM wasn't needed. There
86 Post contains links Wjcandee : By the way, here's a link to the engine restart procedures. http://www.ntsb.gov/Events/2005/Pinnacle/exhibits/314031.pdf There's also a slightly diffe
87 N867BX : " target=_blank>http://www.ntsb.gov/Events/2005/Pinn...1.pdf One fault I find with this double out checklist. It only brings up the consideration of d
88 Sllevin : Obviously, there's a lot that's unknown. But based on my understanding now, prior to things going bad, the stick shaker activated. I'm not clear if th
89 Post contains links Wjcandee : That's a prescient observation. Compare the *proposed* new Pinnacle double-engine failure QRH, at http://www.ntsb.gov/Events/2005/Pinnacle/exhibits/3
90 Wjcandee : It sure did, Silevin. I think 4 times were recorded on the FDR, which was inactive for a portion of the accident sequence, so it may have activated m
91 Post contains links ComeAndGo : They did declare an emergency. Journalist are journalists. If they weren't pushing things we would know half of what is going on. On the FDR the max
92 HAWK21M : Bottom line.....Rules are made for a reason.Follow them. regds MEL
93 Post contains images Nugpot : First post - Please be kind I just have some comments on some of the earlier posts. BTW I currently fly the CRJ200 and have some 3000 hours in it. I h
94 Wjcandee : Excellent post, Nugpot. Your knowledgeable observations were very interesting. I looked back at the FDR and agree; in the period around 21,000 feet, w
95 Revelation : I'm wondering how significant the ignoring of the stick shaker is. Is the stick shaker known to give false indications of immanent stalls in the CRJ2
96 Woodreau : Someone asked about power when the both engines stop... and someone mentioned the RAT which drives the ADG. When the primary generators are not workin
97 PhilSquares : As a interested by-stander, I have to agree with Nugpot. The aircraft is certified to FL410. End of story. Given the relationship of Vne and Vmin, and
98 Nugpot : We are getting into dangerous territory interpreting FDR data in relative isolation, but I will attempt to stay away from opinions. Revelation (Reply
99 YYZYYT : As a non-pilot, a couple of questions: [ Is it just me or is there an inconsistency in the certification system? While a pilot SHOULD be able to rely
100 TinPusher007 : This should answer your question. And this should answer this question for you. If you listen to the CVR transcript...you'll see that they were only
101 YYZYYT : TinPusher007, (and Nugpot and others who know far more than I): Thanks for the pointer ... I find that a thread with 100+ responses (with various sub-
102 Nugpot : YYZYYT: The CRJ has adequate power at medium weights to reach and maintain FL410, but you need time to get there. Being REGIONAL Jets, most of their r
103 Wjcandee : Woodreau and Nugpot...welcome to my respected users' list.
104 YYZYYT : Nugpot: Thanks for the excellent information, and welcome to my RR list as well. I will look forward to reading the final report. YYZYYT
105 2H4 : ...Not to mention the aircraft manufacturer and engine manufacturer. Well said, Nugpot. Some here would do well to show a little respect, and realize
106 FlyinHigh : I am not a pilot and I am not an expert but I also agree with YYZYYT and the others who believe that the pilots must be faulted for their decisions o
107 N766UA : Still, flying on one engine and just trying to restart the other versus gliding on absolutely no power makes a big difference. I don't think they con
108 YYZYYT : FlyinHigh, Ummm, actually I said that I bleieve they should NOT be faulted for the decision to take the plane to the maximum certified altitude... YYZ
109 FlyinHigh : Yes, sorry..my mistake
110 TinPusher007 : I think that Nugpot would be the best to answer that question with any degree of expertise. However, I know quite a few CRJ pilots who have given me
111 FlyinHigh : So if I read this correctly, it was a recoverable situation which they didn't have the experience to recover from. That's pretty sad and even sadder
112 Revelation : Nugpot: Respectfully, I see some inconsistency in what you are saying. You say "there was nothing wrong with the decision to climb to 410" but you als
113 Woodreau : About the stall, one thing I did notice was that the first signs of the stall were present for about 3.5 minutes before the stall. It seems like Conti
114 B744F : I asked this before but didn't get a response, shouldn't one of the last warning sounds be "too low, flaps"? Does this mean they deployed the flaps?[E
115 TinPusher007 : Im defiantely no expert...but it seems so. Flying a CRJ up to its maximum certtified altitude is not inherently dangerous. I think that the NTSB will
116 Nugpot : Revelation & FlyinHigh: FL410 is the edge of the CERTIFIED envelope and has more to do with cabin pressure than anything else. The speed envelope (Vs
117 Post contains links Revelation : I agree. Airmanship is about minimizing the risks you need to take to accomplish your flight. Since you cannot accomplish flight without taking off o
118 Woodreau : GPWS Mode 4 controls the aural warnings for gear not down and flaps not in landing configuration with unsafe terrain clearance. The "Too Low Gear" wa
119 ComeAndGo : If you read into the investigation, you see that captain was never trained to fly at 41K feet. He never had any simulator training for 41K feet. Nugp
120 2H4 : That's a big assumption. Is there, in fact, any kind of certification and/or endorsement to fly at FL410? I could be wrong, but I don't think there i
121 PeterPuck : you don't have to be trained to fly at each flight level the aircraft is certified for.
122 Post contains links ComeAndGo : J. Operations at FL410 1.0 Interviews with checkairmen, simulator instructors and pilots determined that operations at FL410 were neither discussed n
123 AirWillie6475 : Actually the pilots stated to each other that they were about to crash onto houses so they were both still aware of what was happening. I think this
124 TinPusher007 : ComeAndGo....your post from the NTSB investigation that interviewed checkairmen and such is somewhat valid if your point is that flying the CRJ at FL4
125 ComeAndGo : From what I read it becomes clear that you need to be briefed on the subject and should have had simulator experience before attempting to do so. It a
126 Nugpot : ComeAndGo: These guys were proffesional pilots. They would have been exposed to high speed and high altitude aerodynamics when they did their ATP and
127 TinPusher007 : Thank you Nugpot...hopefully people in this forum will respect your knowledge since you fly the plane and are speaking from experience. I think we are
128 Post contains links Wjcandee : I agree that almost everything that needs to be said has been said here, but there is one more thing that folks who are really interested in this acci
129 GoAllegheny : Bill, I don't think that a little post-accident opinion is wrong, although calling people stupid and incompetent is going too far. Indeed, according t
130 Wjcandee : One interesting thing about NTSB hearings is that the incredibly bright light that they shine on things brings up stuff that normally wouldn't be some
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Jetsgo Claims To Have Been "Profitable" posted Thu Aug 8 2002 04:46:24 by A380jet
AMR To Buy Back Biz Jet Corp "Flex Jet"? posted Wed Nov 28 2001 02:10:47 by AA@DFW
Passenger Arrested "I Just Wanted To Go To Toilet" posted Wed Nov 14 2001 21:00:30 by B744
Have You Heard Your Friend Said "I'm Going To Fly" posted Thu Sep 14 2000 05:02:11 by Big777jet