DesertJets From United States, joined Feb 2000, 6927 posts, RR: 29 Posted (9 years 7 months 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 660 times:
With all the discussion about TWA's future I wondered what kind of response I could get to this. Given HP's recent troubles with the FAA over maintainence issues where do you see its future going? PHX can only be expanded so much. I do remember a day when HP was in Ch.11 and they talked about mothballing Terminal 2. But that was 7-8 years ago. The Phoenix market is booming, as well as the Las Vegas market. So my first question, where will HP expand the most??? Out of PHX, LAS, or do a major expansion at Columbus??? Secondly will America West ever become more than the last place major airline?
Stop drop and roll will not save you in hell. --- seen on a church marque in rural Virginia
747-600X From United States, joined Jan 2000, 2732 posts, RR: 25 Reply 1, posted (9 years 7 months 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 442 times:
I think America West is a 'cute' airline. By this I mean it doesn't seem that it should be more than it is, it's very useful where it is, and I've flown it just about any time I go anywhere west of the Mississippi. I'm quite fond of the airline, and think they have a slowly growing but constantly healthy future.
"Mental health is reality at all cost." -- M. Scott Peck, 'The Road Less Traveled'
TWFirst From Vatican City State (Holy See), joined Apr 2000, 6027 posts, RR: 57 Reply 2, posted (9 years 7 months 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 428 times:
I agree with 747-600X. I suspect they're a little limited right now (access to capital, etc.) for major expansion. I would like to see them build a hub at Columbus, although I wonder whether Columbus could support a major hub and whether the competition with DL and CO at CVG and CLE respectively would be too tough. Of course, what I would really like to see is a close alliance with TW. Seems to me their route structures are extremely compatible.
TWAneedsHELP From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 3, posted (9 years 7 months 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 404 times:
For once I too agree with TWFirst. AWA is very limited in its actions. Phoenix will continue to grow, and AWA will with them, however don't expect any kind of growth at Columbus. Your right to appoint out A) COlumbus is too small to support any kind of hub operation) and B) Delta, Continental, US Air, AA, and UAL would eat them alive at ATL, CVG, Pittsburg, and ORD. LAS is growing but AWA has to deal with its old leader, Conway and his highly successful start up, National. Additionally, AWA's landing rights at LAS are mainly very late at night which will begin wearing thin, especially when National expands to Dulles, Midway, and Miami as expected.
Look for AWA to get closer to UAL, they did attempt a buyout last year or Continental. CO and AWA already have a successful codeshare funnelling CO passengers to AWA in the east and FL and AWA passengers to CO in the southwest. AWA is a mediocre operation with serious accounting and safety questions. Their is really nothing cute about it.
DeltaRNOmd-80 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 5, posted (9 years 7 months 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 362 times:
whats the matter with Airbus? I haven't flown one and i wont make assumptions till i do. But i am sure that if its in the sky, than its safe to fly. Personally I am tired of Southwest Airlines' 737's, see em too much at RNO.
Tom in NO From United States, joined Nov 1999, 7194 posts, RR: 55 Reply 6, posted (9 years 7 months 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 349 times:
AWA starts up MSY service on Wednesday with a PHX nonstop. Hopefully one day they'll extend that to MSY-Columbus service.
As far AWA's future, it's like the others.....they have to get their costs down, and promote a positive product to the consumer. Their big problem is that their two main hubs are in areas where a low-cost airline can and is seriously undermining their business.
Tom in NO (at MSY)
"The criminal ineptitude makes you furious"-Bruce Springsteen, after seeing firsthand the damage from Hurricane Katrina
AWA320 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 7, posted (9 years 7 months 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 343 times:
America West is fine... our operations are already improving and measures are being taken to improve even more areas of our system. Management has finally discovered that you have to spend money to make money, and it's actually starting to work.
As far as us going under... think again! As long as we don't get swallowed up by United or some body else (which at this time is highly unlikely), we'll keep going strong. Now, if we go after somebody like TWA (which at this time is very likely) then we should be worried and HOPE that dying TWA doesn't bring us down with them.
Fjnovak1 From United States, joined Apr 2000, 537 posts, RR: 3 Reply 8, posted (9 years 7 months 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 347 times:
I think TWA and America West would be a good fit for a merger. Once TWA's Airbus A318 aircraft begin to arrive, the fleets will be quite similar. TWA is phasing out their 727 fleet and older 767-200 fleet, and their DC-9 fleet will be on its way out with the arrival of the B717. In addition, they have Airbus A330 planes on the way as well. America West would have an improved fleet if they disposed of their 737-200 aircraft. Then, the combined TWA/AWA ("Trans-West Airlines") would have this fleet (in order of aircraft size):
B717
A318
B737-500
B737-300
A319
MD80 (TWAs MD80s are rather new)
A320
B757
B767-300
A330-300
The new airline would have successful, major hubs in St. Louis and Phoenix, and more resources to expand in Las Vegas. Columbus and San Juan would be "focus cities", and JFK would remain an international gateway for flights to the Carribean, Europe, and the Middle East, although TWA does not seem to be very successful out of JFK anymore. The combined airline would also surpass US Airways to become the sixth largest US airline (behind Continental) as opposed to TWAs seventh and AWA ninth ranking currently.
Hamlet69 From United States, joined Mar 2000, 2307 posts, RR: 56 Reply 9, posted (9 years 7 months 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 322 times:
I don't really know about AWA, but I just wanted to say that TWA has finally cancelled their decade old order for A330s. This order was cancelled at the same time they firmed up the A318 order, so that they didn't have to pay the standard cancellation fee.
DesertJets From United States, joined Feb 2000, 6927 posts, RR: 29 Reply 10, posted (9 years 7 months 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 317 times:
I really like all these replies. Here is my two cents worth. First of all Southwest is not, nor ever has, eaten America West alive. To be perfectly honest with you, if you compare similiar routes btwn SW and HP fares are identical. I wouldn't be worried about UA being remotely able to buyout AWA. Had it been 15 years ago, maybe. But the purchase of America West by United would kill so much competition in the west that the DOJ would not allow it. I do agree that America West will continue to grow as Phoenix grows, but also that market has a lot more potential in it than is currently being utilized. As for Las Vegas, the previous Southwest comments also apply and I don't see National as a threat. They are still a start up, and the Las Vegas market is still growing and underserved. In fact HP is expanding more daytime flights out of Las Vegas, their nighttime operations have been very successful. As for Columbus, I would like to see that expanded. AWA needs a good presence on the east coast. Maybe if they could get up to 50-60 daily departures there, that would be great. I still don't think that the other majors eating AWA alive is a vailid arguement. As long as there is room for HP to compete in the market there is no reason why they should not. Maybe it could lead to anti-trust suits against the bigger airlines blocking smaller airlines out of market. i think that was enough for two pennies worth. thanks
Stop drop and roll will not save you in hell. --- seen on a church marque in rural Virginia
My favorite part:
"The carrier would clearly be out of business, were it not for an iron grip on its cost structure. According to Deutsche Banc Alex. Brown's Susan Donofrio, America West operates a plane for 25% less than the competition. That has helped the carrier maintain profit margins right in line with the industry, despite lower revenue per flight."
...That would explain the "snack sacks" and the two rampers per 757. They really need to find a healthy balance between costs and a quality product.
Chieftain From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 12, posted (9 years 7 months 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 308 times:
The only way AWA could ever gain presence on the east coast would be a codeshare with TWA whereby HP would provide RJ feed to TWA at CMH and CMH becomes a TWA focus city. The reason AWA cannot expand in the east is not simply that the majors would eat them alive, but that they have no name recognition and thus no chance of scoring business travellers. The also have no North-South network--all CMH services connect with AWA to points West only. Any North South efforts would be killed by the likes of UA, AA at ORD, CO at CLE, DL at CVG.
AWA do not really have the financial resources or the aircraft to try anything ambitious on the east coast. A deal with TWA could change that, bring in many aircraft to the fold, and do a great deal financially for both companies. Business travellers are much more likely to pick and trust TWA for their travel needs and AWA could have an almost instant expanded network upon which to base RJ's and additional aircraft and transform CMH into something more than a LGA and DCA connecting point.
NeedsHelp, exactly what is your problem? Why is the sky always falling? C'mon, who are you...Gerald Greenwald himself maybe??!
NeedsHelp, you missed the target yet again UA *tried* to buy to up AWA, but it was killed by the DOT/FAA and AWA once the interested parties discovered that United's only intention was to completely dismantle PHX and the Western network and use the planes to fortify their own IAD hub. A link between the two is now highly unlikely given the above. In fact, a link of UA with anybody is also highly unlikely.
AWA320 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 13, posted (9 years 7 months 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 309 times:
When I said AWA being eaten alive, if you would have read it completely, I was referring to a buyout by United or anybody else... which I also said was highly unlikely.
By no means did I say AWA would be eaten alive if we tried to compete.
FlyCMH From United States, joined Jul 1999, 2194 posts, RR: 17 Reply 14, posted (9 years 7 months 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 291 times:
I believe I can shed some light on America West's future in Columbus, which has been brought up in several posts.
I was glad to see so many positive views concerning America West's Columbus operations, and the desire for it to grow. America West is continuing to expand. Of course, most of the airline's expansion will take place in their Phoenix hub, but that doesn't mean CMH will remain dormant. The airline has said that they would like to grow 10% each year, and has already begun its expansion with several new destinations and the addition of 14 new aircraft. Included in this expansion is Columbus.
America West has already announced increased service from CMH. Beginning June, 20, America West will start 3 daily nonstop flights from Columbus to Hartford. America West has also filed with the Department of Transportation to be awarded 5 of the 30 new slots available to Chicago O'Hare to start CMH-ORD service. Service from CMH is very likely to increase even more.
Now regarding the future of America West in Columbus. A common misconception is that Columbus is an isolated town in the middle of Ohio surrounded by the vast metropolises of Cincinnati and Cleveland. Columbus is actually the largest city in Ohio, and the city's metro populations is around 3 million people. Columbus is also the home of many national and international corporations such as Nationwide Insurance, Wendy's International, Scotts, The Limited, and many others. Columbus is also the home of the Ohio State University, one of the largest college campuses in the United States. So there is a demand to fly to Columbus.
Though Cincinnati and Cleveland are major hubs for Delta and Continental respectively, it doesn't mean America West's Columbus hub is doomed to be a mediocre operation. Though I also realize and do not expect that America West's presence at CMH will ever grow to be as mammoth as Delta's presence in CVG and Continental's in Cleveland. Yet CMH does have the capabilites to become a larger hub than it is presently.
Chieftain, regarding your ideas about America West and Trans World... Your proposal sounds intriguing, and it would be interesting to see that accomplished. But America West is slowly finding a niche in the East, which could be expanded with further development from Columbus. Also, regarding the fact the America West does not have a north-south network from CMH, at one time, America West served 6 Florida destinations from Columbus. But as more flights were added from PHX and LAS to Florida, the need for the flights dissipated, and the flights were not scheduled well, resulting in their cancellation. Currently, Delta Express and Southwest now fly the routes America West abandoned, and are profiting from them. America West apparently is trying to come back by starting seasonal service to Ft. Meyers. So, America West could offer north-south flights from CMH, but they would have to do their homework and make sure their routes can be profitable, and avoid another incident mirroring the discontinued Florida routes.
But as I stated earlier, I believe that America West, provided they gain the capital, and most importantly the willingness, the can run a larger, more profitable, and more convenient hub at Port Columbus.
Brakes released, steering in-op, you are clear to push.
Texairport From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 15, posted (9 years 7 months 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 265 times:
Why does everyone mention TWA as a possible partner for HP? Why not USAir? It seem to me that they would be a better fit and possibly create the "Big 4". US is strong in the East, growing internationally, and HP in the West, developing a good North/South connection on the west coast--and they're both in far better shape than TWA. They actually make $$$. In fact why does everyone think TWA is so great? They are a fading star with not much to offer and I don't think any other airline wants to be dragged down with them.
AWA320 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 16, posted (9 years 7 months 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 258 times:
I'm not saying US Airways and America West wouldn't make a good fit, but nobody says anything because nothing has happened between America West and US Airways...
We talk about TWA because there have been merger rumors for quite some time and finally the two carriers are sharing their frequent flyer programs. Pretty soon a codesharing agreement is going to be announced.
TWAneedsHELP From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 17, posted (9 years 7 months 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 258 times:
I agree with you Texairport, that TWA is a fading star, and what with Karabu and everything else, TWA is extremely high-maintenance. Also I don't see a smart, cost-driven airline pinning their future hopes to TWA, whose future is all but uncertain. I've said this all before, so its really nothing new.
However, a few miss here miss the point. Many of y'all speak about mergers and aquisitions in the airline industry. THEY'RE ARENT ANY ANYMORE. Even before the AA-Reno debacle, one could clearly see that airlines now prefer to not do full-scale mergers like you see in the banking industry. Those days are over. Airline mergers are excruciatingly complex. One has to deal with all the repressive labor issues, FAA concerns regarding anti-trust, community involvement, and a host of many other isues. This goes far beyond whether the airlines operate common fleets. Who was it, Fjnovak1, who thinks the TWA/AWA would be smart because TWA is getting A318s to compliement AWA's A320s. Preposterous. I can tell you that fleet commonality is one of the least important issues. When AA bought Reno, it might have been suspected that it was a great fit because Reno had MDC aircraft similar to AA's. Not at all, in fact Reno's fleet is still operated separately than AA's and is looking to be disposed of. So, to learn from this, there is much more to an airline merger than fleet commonality. Trivial. It was the NWA-CO tie up last year that underscored this point exactly. The airlines traded equity positions but wisely decided against a full scale merger. Why? It would have been hell dealing with all the labor agreements, maintenace bases, RJ scope clauses, pilot seniority, and everything else that makes airlines.......airlines. You can see this in Europe too. When SAir Group buys stakes in airlines for Qualiflyer it doesn't merge fleets, erase brands, and combine operations. It holds equity stakes and takes baby-steps toward integration, mainly focussing on rationalising scheduling.
As for Chieftan's idea of supplanting AWA flights at Port Columbus with TWA flights, there is some merit, but how would AWA rationalise this deal to its financial people who see a cost-driven airline that makes money (AWA) hand over operations to an uncertain airline that does not make money (TWA). We love TWA and all that, but can you see that on paper and to non-aviation enthusiasts but just numbers people, how it may not make sense. In addition what is AWA supposed to get in return? RJ flights? Come on, if I ran an airline or if Gerald Greenwald (who mind you, was a terrific numbers man who made UAL, America's #1) did, I wouldn't sell out the ship for some measly RJ flights. Also take into account that AWA is no Delta. They don't have a 400 plane order coming on the books, with like 200 delivered already. Mesa's RJ fleet is much more modest.
Thats all for now.
DesertJets From United States, joined Feb 2000, 6927 posts, RR: 29 Reply 18, posted (9 years 7 months 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 249 times:
I am going to have wholly agree with TWAneeshelp here. Mergers are pretty much a thing of the past. Had this been 15 years ago when regionals were being swallowed by the majors. Air Cal to AA, Western to Delta, Republic to Northwest etc... that just does not happen anymore. But TWA and AWA have aligned their frequent flier programs, which would, you would think, lead to codesharing and the like. According AWA's SEC filings they are planning on 10% growth through 2004. Plus with the addition of 14 new aircraft to the fleet, no planes will be retired this year, there is enough equipment for modest growth. One of the reasons Delta has huge firm orders for 737NGs is that they have a fleet of 100+ 727s that are going to be retired by 2005. For 2001-2004 an additional 43 new Airbuses will enter the fleet, with 14 732s being retired in favor of A318s. But that is still substantial fleet growth there, which could be used to dramatically expand the hubs, most likely Phoenix, with modest jet growth at LAS and Columbus. Also I don't think you should underestimate what Mesa can provide in terms of RJs. There are still one of the largest regional carriers in the country. And I'd suspect there will be expanded Express ops at Las Vegas, and more so at Columbus.
Stop drop and roll will not save you in hell. --- seen on a church marque in rural Virginia
Chieftain From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 19, posted (9 years 7 months 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 239 times:
NeedsHelp, what you don't realize is that the beauty of the AWA/TWA marketing agreement is that neither AWA or TWA can lose. It gives TWA the desperately sought after focus city (CMH). It allows AWA to employ the CRJ more efficiently in roles it was designed to do (shorter hub-feeding hops). It will allow AWA's eastern passengers to connect to important western destinations (ABQ, SFO, etc) with only one stop (via CMH continuing on with TWA) thus becoming more competitive with the other majors. Currently California cities other than LAX require 2 changes of aircraft to reach on AWA---how can that compete with UA or AA? CMH gets many new nonstops.
There really is no uncertainty. This deal could help bring TWA back to profitability. If it falls through, AWA can easily return to their pithy CMH operations and wash their hands of the deal. As it stands now, AWA have no chance of getting anything but low fare pax out of DCA, LGA. High-yielders wont waste their time with 2 connections.
And in the NE, name recognition is everything. Bringing in pax to AWA under the TWA name is a far more likely proposition.
And Why no AWA/US? How far is CMH from PIT (US largest hub)? 144 miles. AWA under US would see AWA shut out of the NE permanently. US wants the West. AWA wants the east. The two are incompatible. US would be dominant in that relationship and put a stop to any AWA plans in its neck of the winds. A TWA/AWA agreement would be much more of a 50/50 agreement. Don't you agree?
AWA do not have the aircraft/resources do undertake a major expansion in the NE on its own. Expansion at CMH is literally moving at a pace of INCHES right now.
Provided they can work around the Union issues, I see no reason why this shouldn't go forward. A merger is not necessary or desirable at this time. But a MAJOR marketing agreement just might do the trick.
AKelley728 From United States, joined Dec 1999, 1768 posts, RR: 12 Reply 20, posted (9 years 7 months 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 221 times:
Many people here have mentioned AWA's possible relationship with TWA and USAir. What I don't hear is AWA's current relationship with Continental.
Continental already has a stake in AWA, and they have a significant code-share agreement. What do you all thing of the dynamics of a AWA/CO merger?
My thoughts: As far as fleet compatibilities they're quite similar, AWA and CO both have RR powered 757s and of course they both have 737s. The only ? is AWA's Airbuses, they could be easily disposed of in 7-10 years.
As far as routes are concerned many of them now are already integrated, it wouldn't be too hard to fully merge the routes. CMH of course would lose out because CLE is closeby. PHX would be a winner because CO doesn't have a far west hub. PHX could easily be used as a jumping off point for HNL and Asia flights.
Awaramper From United States, joined Nov 1999, 118 posts, RR: 0 Reply 21, posted (9 years 7 months 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 197 times:
America West is going to be just fine. The comments about us being doomed with the purchase of Airbuses is pretty funny. How can the purchase of an airplane doom an intire company? I think the entire indusrty is going to be suprised at HP's climb to the top.
YWG777 From Canada, joined Oct 1999, 1264 posts, RR: 1 Reply 22, posted (9 years 7 months 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 187 times:
I hope to see HP add some more flights to Canada. It would be nice for them to do more passenger service . I see HP here in YWG quite a vit. They maintance their planes here. I wish they would add Toronto,Montreal, Ottawa, Winnipeg, Calgary, and Edmonton. Has anyone herd of anything about HP adding Canadian cities? If so please keep me informed. Thanks
YWG777
Sponsor Message: 
From United States, joined Feb 2000, 6927 posts, 
.gif){kind=small}
From Vatican City State (Holy See), joined Apr 2000, 6027 posts, 
From , joined Dec 1969, posts, 
Why is the sky always falling? C'mon, who are you...Gerald Greenwald himself maybe??!
UA *tried* to buy to up AWA, but it was killed by the DOT/FAA and AWA once the interested parties discovered that United's only intention was to completely dismantle PHX and the Western network and use the planes to fortify their own IAD hub. A link between the two is now highly unlikely given the above. In fact, a link of UA with anybody is also highly unlikely.
From Canada, joined Oct 1999, 1264 posts, 
Printer friendly format 
