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China Mulls Building Own Aircraft  
User currently offlinePyxisnautica From Kiribati, joined May 2005, 74 posts, RR: 0
Posted (9 years 1 month 17 hours ago) and read 2779 times:

http://www.forbes.com/markets/feeds/afx/2005/06/12/afx2088623.html

"China's aerospace sector is considering building its own large aircraft with a capacity of between 150 and 200 passengers to serve its rapidly growing market, state media said.

"China has the capability of building an indigenous 'trunk-liner' of this size but time is of the essence, the China Business Weekly newspaper reported, citing the China Aviation Industry Corporation AVIC I....

"'If Chinese aircraft makers can roll out a trunk-liner with less than 200 seats before Boeing and Airbus' new models replace the B737 and the A320, we may have a larger chance to succeed in that particular market tier,' Liao said.

"Liu Gaozhuo, president of AVIC I, said it was one of China's 'long-awaited dreams' to produce a large aircraft of this type but it might take time."

20 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineNewark777 From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 9348 posts, RR: 30
Reply 1, posted (9 years 1 month 16 hours ago) and read 2756 times:

Now what in the world is a trunk-liner?

Harry



Why grab a Heine when you can grab a Busch?
User currently offlineWorldXplorer From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 381 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (9 years 1 month 16 hours ago) and read 2733 times:

Quoting Newark777 (Reply 1):
Now what in the world is a trunk-liner?

I have no idea. Is it maybe a reference to "trunk routes"? Whatever it means it's a horrible name. I just can't imagine non-Chinese carriers ordering it. But we'll see...

WorldXplorer


User currently offlineNewark777 From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 9348 posts, RR: 30
Reply 3, posted (9 years 1 month 16 hours ago) and read 2714 times:


I have no idea. Is it maybe a reference to "trunk routes"? Whatever it means it's a horrible name. I just can't imagine non-Chinese carriers ordering it. But we'll see...


If it goes ahead, I can see it as being in a similar situation to the Russian aircraft manufacturers. Popular planes in their home countries, but having little impact elsewhere. But they make it seem in the article that it would be made specifically for intra-China routes, so maybe that is all they need.

Harry



Why grab a Heine when you can grab a Busch?
User currently offlineKatekebo From United States of America, joined Apr 2001, 702 posts, RR: 6
Reply 4, posted (9 years 1 month 16 hours ago) and read 2701 times:

Well, I think it is just a matter of time to see China emerge as an important manufacturer of commercial airplanes, probably not to the level of Boeing or Airbus, but they can be a formidable competitor to Embraer, Bombardier or ATR.

A trunk airliner is an airplane in which the fuselage is made from a single-piece hollowed tree trunk of exceptionally large and strong tropical trees found on the south-east coast of China. It is as strong and light as the composites used by Boeing for the B787. Current limitation is the size of the largest trunks, hence the limit to around 100-150 passengers. However, China is activelly working on developing an even larger, genetically modified variety which will allow it to enter the 200-300 passenger market.

Sorry for joke, couldn't resist.

A trunk airline (and consequently trunk airliner) was a term used in the 70's and 80's for smaller regional airlines serving between small-to-medium size cities as well as between these cities and large hubs in the USA.


User currently offlineDalavia From Australia, joined Feb 2005, 543 posts, RR: 1
Reply 5, posted (9 years 1 month 16 hours ago) and read 2667 times:

With the growth in China's domestic airline industry, I can imagine this project being very viable in the years ahead.

I have often wondered why China spends so much hard-earned foreign currency on jets from overseas when the size of the domestic market makes local production viable.

China has quite a large aircraft industry, and in addition to having assembled MD-82 and MD-90 'trunkliners' in Shanghai, now assembles Embraer ERJ-145 airliners in Harbin. China also produces many parts for Boeing and Airbus. They have a significant local design industry producing a range of military and civil aircraft.


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Photo © Zhang hua



The expertise is there, the market is there, and with lower labour costs than Europe or USA (and even Brazil), this could potentially become a big export-earner.

China has a tradition of self-reliance (see left image below). It has been lost lately in the aviation industry, and it would be great to see it return.


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Photo © Taecoxu



User currently offlineJetClipper From Guadeloupe, joined Jun 2005, 12 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (9 years 1 month 16 hours ago) and read 2612 times:

Btw, what about the ARJ-21 project, are they ready to build it ?

User currently offlineCo7772wuh From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (9 years 1 month 16 hours ago) and read 2590 times:

Quoting Dalavia (Reply 5):
The expertise is there, the market is there, and with lower labour costs than Europe or USA (and even Brazil), this could potentially become a big export-earner.

If China were to produce a significant # of there own a/c . It surely will hurt both Boeing and AB , no doubt about that . However , that being said . Wouldn't it hurt AB more since AB was expecting to sell large numbers of a/c to China , particularlly the A380 ????

 scratchchin 


User currently offlineIkramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 21458 posts, RR: 60
Reply 8, posted (9 years 1 month 16 hours ago) and read 2586 times:

if they moved to the 175-225 2-class pax range instead, they would have the market all to themselves! the 787 has abandoned the roles of the 762 and 763, and the A350 is the same size as the A330. The A321 and 739 are smaller, maxing out near 200 pax in one class tourist. Neither airline can stretch their current offerings any further, so need new models to fill this gaping whole right in the middle of the market.


Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
User currently offlineDeltaSFO From United States of America, joined Nov 2000, 2488 posts, RR: 22
Reply 9, posted (9 years 1 month 15 hours ago) and read 2548 times:

Quoting Newark777 (Reply 3):
If it goes ahead, I can see it as being in a similar situation to the Russian aircraft manufacturers. Popular planes in their home countries, but having little impact elsewhere. But they make it seem in the article that it would be made specifically for intra-China routes, so maybe that is all they need.

They used to say that about French planes.



It's a new day. Every moment matters. Now, more than ever.
User currently offlineIkramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 21458 posts, RR: 60
Reply 10, posted (9 years 1 month 15 hours ago) and read 2531 times:

Quoting DeltaSFO (Reply 9):
They used to say that about French planes.

how long ago?



Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
User currently offlineJetClipper From Guadeloupe, joined Jun 2005, 12 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (9 years 1 month 15 hours ago) and read 2520 times:

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 10):
how long ago?

maybe when Dassault delivered the first Mercure to air Inter.....  Smile

or with the first A300 ?


User currently offlineScbriml From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2003, 12284 posts, RR: 47
Reply 12, posted (9 years 1 month 15 hours ago) and read 2488 times:
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Quoting WorldXplorer (Reply 2):
I just can't imagine non-Chinese carriers ordering it.

That's what our fathers said about buying a Japanese car!



Time flies like an arrow, but fruit flies like a banana!
User currently offline777gk From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 1641 posts, RR: 18
Reply 13, posted (9 years 1 month 2 hours ago) and read 2298 times:

Just for clarification-

A "trunk route" was a term used extensively during the CAB era to signify major routes between large cities that would also carry significant traffic onward to other, smaller routes. JFK-LAX was always referred to as a "trunk route" by Pan American, TWA, United, AA, et al, as it was the major route between the East and West Coast, and consequently passengers would be connecting to/from these flights to smaller cities at either end. ORD-SFO, ATL-LAX, ORD-LAX were some other major "trunk routes" of the day.

Originally "trunk route" was derived from its original application in the railroad industry during its heyday where long distance passengers would be traveling with large trunks on trips, and these long haul arterial lines were where "trunk route" was coined.

The proposal here to call the airplane a "trunk liner" makes sense because the idea is to link high-traffic destinations with each other for transfer purposes, as opposed to connecting smaller regional airports to hubs.

I agree, however, that the term is antiquated.


User currently offlineUdo From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 14, posted (9 years 1 month ago) and read 2178 times:

Quoting Co7772wuh (Reply 7):
Wouldn't it hurt AB more since AB was expecting to sell large numbers of a/c to China , particularlly the A380 ????

And since when is China planning to build a 500-seater? The press release is about an mid-sized aircraft for 150-200 passengers...


Regards
Udo


User currently offlinePyxisnautica From Kiribati, joined May 2005, 74 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (9 years 4 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 2064 times:

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 8):
if they moved to the 175-225 2-class pax range instead, they would have the market all to themselves!

Quite an opportunity, of sorts, for the Chinese. However I gather from reading the article that a truly domestic (as opposed to license built) Chinese narrowbody is at least a decade off, and most likely not for export, so both Boeing and Airbus have time to get back in on that market if they so choose.

Quoting Scbriml (Reply 12):
That's what our fathers said about buying a Japanese car!

And now, a generation later, we buy little else.

If the chinese do get involved I doubt it will take them as long as the Japanese (20-30yrs) to get up to speed either - I’m sure the Chinese are/have been busily reverse-engineering just about anything and everything they can get their hands on, not to imply that they lack any engineering know-how of their own. Who knows, if the Canaucks and Brazilians can successfully build the odd RJ and or puddlejumper then surely so can just about anyone.

Quoting Dalavia (Reply 5):
I have often wondered why China spends so much hard-earned foreign currency on jets from overseas when the size of the domestic market makes local production viable.

Indeed.

Do you have any specs on the Y20? OEW, cruise altitude/speed, range etc. I checked on the a.net database and google, but came up with pretty much nothing.


User currently offlineCo7772wuh From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 16, posted (9 years 4 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 2015 times:

Quoting Udo (Reply 14):
And since when is China planning to build a 500-seater? The press release is about an mid-sized aircraft for 150-200 passengers...

Welcome back Udo !  cheerful 

The more independent China is aviation wise the less dependent they will be on both Boeing and AB .

Winston says Hi !

 tongue 


User currently offlineGQfluffy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 17, posted (9 years 4 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 2004 times:

Quoting Newark777 (Reply 3):
If it goes ahead, I can see it as being in a similar situation to the Russian aircraft manufacturers.

Exactly. But wouldn't The government "force" the Chinese airlines to buy it's "homegrown" product?

This reminds me of a thread a few days ago. About how Boeing won't produce the "73NNG" because of this aircraft...among other things only thought of while smoking the reefer...  rotfl   rotfl 

fluffy


User currently offlineElagabal From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2005, 197 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (9 years 4 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 1871 times:

I can see the Chinese government sinking some cash into this idea, precisely because it's an interesting gamble on long-term savings. The question is whether the advantage to be gained thereby, is greater in value than the current trade in parts and assembly that they have with A, B & E. From a cost-benefit point of view they may be better off where they are now for a while.

Of course, it may eventually prove to have been a better idea to innovate and develop their own aircraft after all, but as the original poster pointed out, there is a limited window of opportunity. I can see the idea working, but not initially and not for several (or even many) years; the initial investment, most likely by the Chinese government, would need to be both committed and very large.

Quoting Katekebo (Reply 4):
A trunk airliner is an airplane in which the fuselage is made from a single-piece hollowed tree trunk of exceptionally large and strong tropical trees found on the south-east coast of China. It is as strong and light as the composites used by Boeing for the B787. Current limitation is the size of the largest trunks, hence the limit to around 100-150 passengers. However, China is activelly working on developing an even larger, genetically modified variety which will allow it to enter the 200-300 passenger market.

I sh@t myself laughing on this one.


User currently offlineVelasco From Portugal, joined Jan 2005, 101 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (9 years 4 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 1822 times:

Quoting Katekebo (Reply 4):
A trunk airliner is an airplane in which the fuselage is made from a single-piece hollowed tree trunk of exceptionally large and strong tropical trees found on the south-east coast of China. It is as strong and light as the composites used by Boeing for the B787. Current limitation is the size of the largest trunks, hence the limit to around 100-150 passengers. However, China is activelly working on developing an even larger, genetically modified variety which will allow it to enter the 200-300 passenger market.

:D Big grin Great joke to start my day with!!! Big grin Big grin



Lisboa-Rio on the A340... São Pedro e São Paulo down below...
User currently offlineGlareskin From Netherlands, joined Jun 2005, 1303 posts, RR: 1
Reply 20, posted (9 years 4 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 1778 times:

Quoting Newark777 (Reply 1):
Now what in the world is a trunk-liner?

It's even worse than a European LCC. Being packed like Sardines in a can; in other words: the comfort of being in the trunk of an Asian car..



There's still a long way to go before all the alliances deserve a star...
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