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Possible A3XX EU Funding Block  
User currently offlineCX747 From United States of America, joined May 1999, 4454 posts, RR: 5
Posted (14 years 6 months 3 weeks 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 1423 times:

WASHINGTON (AFX) - Trade Representative Charlene Barshefsky said the U.S. may launch proceedings against certain EU trade practices, notably subsidies to Airbus Industrie for its A3XX super jumbo project.

In documents filed with the Congress, she termed the subsidies as "alarming practices", adding that the government may launch proceedings soon.

She said that actual public funding and promised subsidies to different industries, and notably Airbus, "raise serious concern" regarding the respect by European governments' multi- and bi-lateral
obligations.


"History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or timid." D. Eisenhower
49 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineSndp From Belgium, joined Feb 2000, 553 posts, RR: 2
Reply 1, posted (14 years 6 months 3 weeks 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 1298 times:

Although I do not want to start a EU-US or Boeing-Airbus war, God prevent us from that and give us a serious discussion, I would like to comment on this message. As we all know, Airbus will indeed receive money from EU-governements but this money will be returned once the first aircraft is produced and delivered. Countries like England have gained already a lot of money, for every 1$ they have put in the A320 program they now have received already 3. So, Airbus will give this money back.
Boeing is also sponsored although here it goes via the military aircraft production. Boeing uses a lot of studies for military aircraft or space projects financed by the governement to produce its civil aircraft. Why is America not fair on this subject. Should we all be treated in the same way? They fear the A3XX and they never thought this project would come of the ground. Now that Emirates has committed itself to buy some A3XX's and others will do this soon, this seems to be the only thing the Americans want to and can do to protect their own market. I hope it won't work! And if it happens the EU certainly must go through with the ban on hushkitted B737's, 707 and 727.
sndp


User currently offlineD L X From United States of America, joined May 1999, 11486 posts, RR: 52
Reply 2, posted (14 years 6 months 3 weeks 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 1290 times:

This is good news. Whether trade restrictions are placed or not, it will force Airbus to be open with all of its funding and pricing.

Two comments:

Only the British part of Airbus has returned its "loans" and Boeing receives no "subsidy" for military projects; only fee for service, just like the Airbus members.



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User currently offlineA student From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 3, posted (14 years 6 months 3 weeks 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 1291 times:

Excuse me, but what do hushkitted aircraft have to do with unfair subsidies to the A3XX????

Basically, this would mean a trade war like the Bananacrisis. (US put taxes on European luxury products). If the EU should react in any way at all, it would be to protest against the Americans spending money on scientific research that benefits Boeing.

But on the other hand, scientific progress is needed. The A3XX does not bring any significant progress, and it is built purely for economic reasons, i.e. to make money with it. If it is a project that is good investment, Airbus could try financing it with loans from banks. It is not. So it needs government money. This could turn out to be a moneyeater like the Eurofighter, the Transrapid, the Eurotunnel or other such prestige projects that are built purely for prestige reasons. Airbus, the entire company, is basically one big such prestige project, and by sheer luck, it seems, it turned out to be successful. (Hmmm, if you want to make millions, start byt putting billions into Airbus, wait for ten years, and maybe you'll get millions, huh?)

What's the bottom line? It is okay for the US to protest. Can they stop it? No. Are they doing anything at all at the moment? From this post it looks like one representative complained. That's all. No need to panic and start trade wars. So why worry? Life is not fair. Boeing and Airbus both complain, pointing fingers at each other, but they will manage. I'm on the Boeing side, myself. Sndp is on the Airbus side. Who cares?


User currently offline777x From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 4, posted (14 years 6 months 3 weeks 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 1278 times:

I don't have a problem in principle with Airbus receiving subsidies, after all, it was created by the goverments of the EU with some political reasons backing it's creation. At the end of the day it's a EU project and therefor they can do what they like (This doesn't mean that others won't complain about it)

However, I don't buy the argument that Boeing also receives subsidies from it's military projects. That's complete BS because the consortium members of Airbus receive the same sort of deals (which I don't think amounts to subsidies in either case). Of course defense research benifits commercial products, that happens across many fields, but perhaps it is most obvious in aerospace. But again, while Boeing has learned from it's defense contracts, so have the Airbus consortium members (where do you think they developed the skills to build the first Airbus & Concorde?)

my 2c


User currently offlineLBSteve From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 5, posted (14 years 6 months 3 weeks 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 1278 times:

Subsidies are a tricky issue. We in the US really can’t say too much given our own record of subsidizing industry. Type in ‘Corporate Welfare’ in any search engine and you’ll see what I mean. Right or wrong, I just don’t see how we in the US can complain?

User currently offlineUdo From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 6, posted (14 years 6 months 3 weeks 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 1271 times:

Oh, after Emirates has launched the A3XX the US evaluate to act against Airbus...what will they do?

1. Ground all US-registered Airbusses?
2. Stop importing any Airbusses?
3. Declare a new trade war?
4. Close all embassies in Europe?
5. Send the USS Enterprise into the Channel, or into the North Sea, to show up?

I can't wait for any actions...
And I can't wait see the first A3XX in proud Emirates colors taking off!

Oh, by the way, thanks for all bloody posts, I will enjoy reading them!

Regards
Udo


User currently offlineLBSteve From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (14 years 6 months 3 weeks 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 1268 times:

Hello Udo, please remember that not everyone in the US is out to get Europe. Fact many of us are rather disappointed with the childish behavior of our own government.

User currently offlineUdo From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 8, posted (14 years 6 months 3 weeks 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 1270 times:

I know that our government behaves childish, I haven't voted for Schröder...

Oh, by the way, if I start noting down how often the US government has behaved childish so far, I won't have finished before tomorrow...

Regards
Udo


User currently offlineSndp From Belgium, joined Feb 2000, 553 posts, RR: 2
Reply 9, posted (14 years 6 months 3 weeks 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 1246 times:

Please do not say Boeing does not receive money from the governement for some prjects because that is not true and we all know that. I'm very sorry.
sndp


User currently offlineD L X From United States of America, joined May 1999, 11486 posts, RR: 52
Reply 10, posted (14 years 6 months 3 weeks 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 1245 times:

Name a project.



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User currently offlineAb.400 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 11, posted (14 years 6 months 3 weeks 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 1234 times:

DLX, who buys all these latest F-something fighters while there is no real demand for..... the US-taxpayer. Who gets the money ? Boeing and other companies.

User currently offlineD L X From United States of America, joined May 1999, 11486 posts, RR: 52
Reply 12, posted (14 years 6 months 3 weeks 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 1233 times:

So, when you go to McDonald's and buy a cheeseburger, are you subsidizing McDonald's? Of course not. It's a fee for service.

The government says "We want 100 F-3000 jets for [whatever reason]." Boeing says, "We can do that. We'll charge $X per plane," and the government says "OK." How is that subsidy? It too is a fee for a product.

I guess the US taxpayer is also subsidizing McDonalds when a gov't employer on TDY uses his per diem to buy lunch, huh?



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User currently offlineAvion From Bouvet Island, joined May 1999, 2205 posts, RR: 7
Reply 13, posted (14 years 6 months 3 weeks 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 1228 times:

I dont mind how they fund the aircraft. I only hope it will get off the ground some day.

Avion

BTW: CX747, are you so angry that airbus builds the new queen of the skies? As an aviation enthusiast you should be looking forward to see it flying.


User currently offlineWorldTraveller From Germany, joined Jun 1999, 624 posts, RR: 5
Reply 14, posted (14 years 6 months 3 weeks 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 1227 times:

I can't understand your behaviour.

The US government and the EU agreed in '92 that the kind of loans Airbus will get to develop the A3XX is legal and O.K. !!!

So what are you screaming about?

Please stick to your agreements...

But I know the real reason why you call the loans unfair:

The A3XX will break Boeings (or America's) monopoly in the 400+ seat market.
And it was exactly this market which gave Boeing the big $$$'s so that there was no need to make profit with the other models (especially the 737), since the narrowbodies had to compete with the highly succesful A320 family (and don't you remember that Boeing said there was no market and no need for these a/c, too??).

Boeing tries to bring the A3XX project down ( that's ok from their point of view), and that's why they don't want the loans for Airbus.


Regards,
the WorldTraveller



User currently offlineAb.400 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 15, posted (14 years 6 months 3 weeks 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 1226 times:

DLX, if you look closer on Avions post you will find that he stated the fact that Boeing RECEIVES money from the gov. There was no word about subsidy. You asked for a project and I named one.

User currently offlineAb.400 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 16, posted (14 years 6 months 3 weeks 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 1218 times:

Pardon, the post was from Sndp...

User currently offlineSndp From Belgium, joined Feb 2000, 553 posts, RR: 2
Reply 17, posted (14 years 6 months 3 weeks 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 1216 times:

Boeing does not only receive money from the governement for the service they give but also to develop new systems and so on. These experiments and projects are also used for civil aircraft. And the 747 was for example initially a project to build a large aircraft for military use. What they learned from this development was used to make the 747 civil aircraft.
sndp


User currently offlineAerLingus A330 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 18, posted (14 years 6 months 3 weeks 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 1218 times:

Why do I feel that this forum is starting to turn into the United States vs. the rest of the world?  

Please leave your politics out of the forum will you?


User currently offlineCX747 From United States of America, joined May 1999, 4454 posts, RR: 5
Reply 19, posted (14 years 6 months 3 weeks 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 1209 times:

I had concerns about posting this information. Suprise, suprise it has begun to deteriorate already. When Boeing builds JSF or parts for the F-22 it is not the same as Airbus and the A3XX. The U.S. military sees the need and demand for a new fighter and ask several companies to build prototypes and designs. Finally it comes down to the best design and the company is paid by the U.S. Government for each aircraft it produces. When the French or other nations subsidize they do NOT receive a good in return. The French taxpayer does not have a new F-22 to protect its skies. All they have done is made it possible for Cathay Pacific to afford an A3XX. That is why France's taxes are so high. The citizens of that country pay for Airbus aircraft. They do not receive anything in return. Well they may receive employement but they are paying for their own employement because their own taxes pay for Airbus aicraft. So, it is kinda like a dog chasing its tail.

Ab. 400- As for the F-22 it is indeed off the ground and performing as advertised. The JSF is to fly later this year also. And don't say there isn't a need for these aircraft because in 5-10 years these planes will be the ones fighting for freedom for YOU AND ME.



"History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or timid." D. Eisenhower
User currently offlineSndp From Belgium, joined Feb 2000, 553 posts, RR: 2
Reply 20, posted (14 years 6 months 3 weeks 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 1206 times:

All right, maybe I'm doing what I hoped not to happen, adding myself some message in the EU-US war. What we have got here are some people fond of the A3XX, hoping to see the aircraft fly and some Boeing fans. And we are all using (correct?) arguments but we put them in another perspective just to convince the others. It is maybe wrong that Airbus receives money but let us be honest, Boeing also receives this. And the EU was allowed by the US to give money, as the US could do so as well.
What I do not understand, and I hope to get an answer on this question, is why some people here, aviation enthousiast, are against this new great aircraft, the A3XX. Wouldn't it be nice for them too to see this great bird fly?
sndp


User currently offlineD L X From United States of America, joined May 1999, 11486 posts, RR: 52
Reply 21, posted (14 years 6 months 3 weeks 6 days ago) and read 1204 times:

Why is it that to be an "aviation enthusiast" you have to like every new design that comes off the drawing board?

I am an aviation enthusiast. And while I feel that it may be neat to see the 3XX fly, I would prefer that it not come at the expense of people's livelihoods.

We can argue all day about what is fair, and neither side will listen to the other, I'm sure. (Even though I'm right.  ) But, I will not be a cheerleader when it hurts my countrymen, my friends, my family, etc.



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User currently offlineLBSteve From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 22, posted (14 years 6 months 3 weeks 6 days ago) and read 1203 times:

I think Boeings CEO’s have done more to hurt the American worker than Airbus ever has. They layoff the most experienced for low skill labor just to save a few $$$ while simultaneously lining their own billfold, now that’s something to be mad about.

User currently offlineAvion From Bouvet Island, joined May 1999, 2205 posts, RR: 7
Reply 23, posted (14 years 6 months 3 weeks 6 days ago) and read 1192 times:

Its way off topic but the taxes in france are not low but they're not high(About the same level as in the US). And are people living with less living standard in the US? No. Everyone gets free healthcare (high class healthcare) and education.

The EU can do with their money what they want. They can throw it out of the window or just keep it on a bank account. But why would they want to throw money out of the window. Just like in the US there is no spare money to throw out of the window!
But bear in mind every euro airbus gets must be paid back! Is not a subsidy, its a loan.

Avion


User currently offline777x From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 24, posted (14 years 6 months 3 weeks 6 days ago) and read 1188 times:

receiving money from goverment != subsidy



25 Post contains images Ab.400 : receiving money from the gov. = subsidy. Well that affects Boeing as well.....
26 D L X : Then, you ARE saying that a government worker on temporary duty who buys lunch using his per diem is subsidizing that restaurant? Oh boy.
27 Ab.400 : DLX, your fantasy is raising a little high.
28 777x : No, recieving money from goverment DOES NOT equal subsidy. If the goverment buys pencils from you at market rate is it subsidy? No, of course not! If
29 Ab.400 : 777x, how comes you changed your mind so quick ? Look at your earlier post.
30 FBWless : Boeing and other fighter jet builders don't just pay for prototypes out of their own pockets. They are awarded contracts for studies which MAY end up
31 Raddog2 : To say that purchase of military aircraft from Boeing is equivalent to dumping money into Airbus for nothing is fatuous, to say the least. First of al
32 777x : Avion, I haven't changed my mind, I'm not against Airbus having subsidies, but I am due argue with people who say boeing receives subsidies due to it'
33 Ab.400 : I guess you mean mee, Ab.400.
34 Avion : I dont know if Boeing receives susidies. I dont care anyway because they make nice aircraft (777). All what i want to say is that Airbus has to pay ba
35 Ab.400 : Just to make the story short, we Europeans vote our gouvernment and they decide where the money goes. If they support Airbus, fine. I vote them again.
36 D L X : And, just to make the story short, Europe is not an island. What you do over there sometimes affect others. If you do something that causes harm to so
37 Ab.400 : US can not do much more than asking Boeing to come up with an equal competitor to A3XX.
38 D L X : The US could do a lot more than ask Boeing to make a 3XX competitor. (As much as that is being a lemming...) The US could ban it here, it could slap c
39 Ab.400 : Whoow... sounds like they have their own little world to live in.....
40 Raddog2 : Well, let's see what the WTO says about it after Barshefsky launches proceedings. I doubt the "Boeing gets 'subsidies' too" line is going to fly with
41 Hamlet69 : I live in the U.S. I believe that the EU can do with its money what it wants. Give subsidies, build a bridge, burn it, I don't care. But for those tha
42 Post contains images Ab.400 : Nice comparison... Boeings and Bananas......
43 Chieftain : Nicht haben Sie nichts besser als zu tun erstellen Mühe und erhalten in Kämpfe? Warum hassen Sie Boeing und Amerika? Entspannen Sie sich..., warum n
44 Chieftain : Isn't the value of the Central American bananas greater than that of aircraft sold on the European continent?
45 Ab.400 : Chief/Barnaby. Think I that German yours not so good is.
46 Wingman : When the US EU agreement on gov't subsidies for commercial airliners was signed in the early 90s, the circumstances b/t Airbus and Boeing were much di
47 Prebennorholm : A lot of crab on this tread. The fact is that while the US needs the Airbus Consortium badly, then Europe needs Boeing just as much. Just try to think
48 Chieftain : No kidding! I was just screwin' with ya!
49 Ab.400 : Our kids will be happy not beeing packed into cramped 747´s.
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