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Why No Delta 777's From JFK  
User currently offlineJumbojet From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 1159 posts, RR: 0
Posted (9 years 2 months 1 week 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 6245 times:

Just curious, why arent there any Delta 777's from JFK. I believe there is one from the CVG hub and the rest from ATL. Aren't there any European routes from JFK that woule warrant the 777? Or why not apply for Asian routes from JFK and use the 777.

Curiously yours,

steve

47 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineAlitaliaMD11 From Spain, joined Dec 2003, 4068 posts, RR: 13
Reply 1, posted (9 years 2 months 1 week 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 6215 times:

JFK does occasionally see the B777-200 operating to Europe. I am not sure on this but each year Delta chooses one of their European destinations being served by the 767-300 and upgrades the route to the B777-200 for the summer season.

To my knowledge this year it is MXP/FCO.

The 777 might be seen this summer flying JFK-MXP or JFK-FCO.

For a while I think the B777 was scheduled on some flights out of JFK.


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From the New York area the Asian market is a competing one with ANA, JAL, AA, CO, and UA, I don't know if it would be wise for DL to try to get into that one and end up possibly the loser.



No Vueling No Party
User currently offlineTinPusher007 From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 977 posts, RR: 1
Reply 2, posted (9 years 2 months 1 week 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 6129 times:

Quoting AlitaliaMD11 (Reply 1):
From the New York area the Asian market is a competing one with ANA, JAL, AA, CO, and UA, I don't know if it would be wise for DL to try to get into that one and end up possibly the loser.

It would be very wise for DL to try to enter the Asian market from NYC as Asia is one of the fastest growing global destinations these days. And DL has tried twice, unsuccessfully to be given the authority to serve China from New York. CO was awarded EWR-PEK which just comenced yesterday if Im not mistaken.

[Edited 2005-06-16 11:46:06]

[Edited 2005-06-16 11:46:40]


"Flying isn't inherently dangerous...but very unforgiving of carelessness, incapacity or neglect."
User currently offlineDAL767400ER From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 3, posted (9 years 2 months 1 week 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 6087 times:

JFK hasn't seen a regular DL 777 in years. Last year's visits where only for some flights to ATH in time for the Summer Olympics.
The 777 fleet is based completely at ATL. The only non-ATL flight is CVG-CDG, though that plane is usually routed ATL-CDG-CVG-CDG-ATL. Having all 777s based at the same airport allows to save costs compared to having them based at JFK as well. Also, ATL is the airport that demands the capacity of the 777, because on most routes DL is the sole carrier out of ATL, whereas on the high-capacity routes out of JFK for them (CDG, MXP, FCO; AMS still waiting) they have one of their Skyteam partners to put pax on if their own flight is full. It's all about efficiency. And before you ask, DL cannot route a 777 ATL-CDG-JFK-CDG-ATL as with CVG, because both JFK flights continue on to India, and the deman isn't there to warrant a 777.


User currently offline767-332ER From United States of America, joined Mar 2001, 2030 posts, RR: 10
Reply 4, posted (9 years 2 months 1 week 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 6071 times:

They just don't have enough 777's to be able to warrant the operations of all the flights you guys are talking about. It sure would be nice to see more coming once Delta gets back on their feet.
Regards



Twinjets...if one fails, work the other one twice as hard!!!
User currently offlineTinPusher007 From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 977 posts, RR: 1
Reply 5, posted (9 years 2 months 1 week 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 6020 times:

Quoting 767-332ER (Reply 4):
It sure would be nice to see more coming once Delta gets back on their feet.
Regards

I don't think we're going to see that honestly. I think the 787 is a much better aircraft for DL. DL really doesn't need an aircaft as heavy and expensive as the 777 for most of its int'l flights to Europe. They do very well with the 763ER's. The economics, efficiencies, capacity and potential pax comfort of the 787 are a much better match for DL's needs. When DL is in position to order them, I wouldn't be the least bit surprised to see DL dispose of its T7's altogether.



"Flying isn't inherently dangerous...but very unforgiving of carelessness, incapacity or neglect."
User currently offlineORD From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 1381 posts, RR: 1
Reply 6, posted (9 years 2 months 1 week 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 5909 times:

Quoting TinPusher007 (Reply 2):
And DL has tried twice, unsuccessfully to be given the authority to serve China from New York.

Delta never tried to serve China from New York. Their first request was for nonstop flights from Portland, and the application was later switched to Cincinnati. Their second, and more recent, request was for a nonstop from Atlanta.

Also, Delta did fly JFK-Tokyo nonstop for a short time but pulled the route.


User currently offlinePanamair From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 4895 posts, RR: 25
Reply 7, posted (9 years 2 months 1 week 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 5873 times:
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Quoting ORD (Reply 6):
Delta never tried to serve China from New York

Not true. During the previous rounds, DL did propose an ATL-JFK-PEK-PVG routing.


User currently offlinePositiverate From United States of America, joined May 2005, 1590 posts, RR: 8
Reply 8, posted (9 years 2 months 1 week 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 5856 times:

ORD: Delta still flies ATL-NRT. DL 55 daily...

User currently offlineRJpieces From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 9, posted (9 years 2 months 1 week 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 5829 times:

It would be very wise for DL to try to enter the Asian market from NYC as Asia is one of the fastest growing global destinations these days.

It's much easier and better for them to codeshare with NW, as they do.

The last scheduled Delta 777 out of JFK was in the summer of 2002 on JFK-CDG (the other flight was operated by an MD11 I believe). As mentioned, last summer saw some special flights for the Olympics in Athens. As far as I know, there are no scheduled 777s out of JFK this summer.


User currently offlineDAL767400ER From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 10, posted (9 years 2 months 1 week 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 5801 times:

Quoting Positiverate (Reply 8):
ORD: Delta still flies ATL-NRT. DL 55 daily...

He never said anything about ATL-NRT. Read again:

Quoting ORD" class=quote target=_blank>ORD (Reply 6):
Also, Delta did fly JFK-Tokyo nonstop for a short time but pulled the route.


User currently offlineBucky707 From United States of America, joined Aug 2000, 1028 posts, RR: 3
Reply 11, posted (9 years 2 months 1 week 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 5780 times:

"The economics, efficiencies, capacity and potential pax comfort of the 787 are a much better match for DL's needs. When DL is in position to order them, I wouldn't be the least bit surprised to see DL dispose of its T7's altogether."



actually, you are right on the money. From what I have been told, Delta will move toward a fleet with two types.......the 737 and 787.


User currently offlineSrbmod From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 12, posted (9 years 2 months 1 week 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 5774 times:

Back when DL operated JFK-NRT, they used the MD-11, as at the time, the MD-11 were assigned to all US-Japan flights, with some European flights, a few domestic legs out of ATL, and was the MD-11 used on the short-lived flights from JFK to the Middle East?

Up until the latter part of 2000, DL used to do a ATL-MCO-JFK-MCO-ATL run using the 777 until they replaced the mainline JFK-MCO flight with Delta Express. One day just for the heck of it, I flew ATL-MCO-JFK-ATL, with the first two segments being on the 777. They couldn't park the 777 at a regular DL gate, so they parked us to the side and we had to use the mobile lounges.


User currently offlineRJpieces From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 13, posted (9 years 2 months 1 week 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 5737 times:

They couldn't park the 777 at a regular DL gate, so they parked us to the side and we had to use the mobile lounges.

At JFK?


User currently offlineORD From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 1381 posts, RR: 1
Reply 14, posted (9 years 2 months 1 week 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 5723 times:

Quoting Panamair (Reply 7):
Not true. During the previous rounds, DL did propose an ATL-JFK-PEK-PVG routing.

You are correct, my mistake. Delta proposed flying from both JFK and CVG nonstop to China but lost out in the awards in early 2001.


User currently offlinePanamair From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 4895 posts, RR: 25
Reply 15, posted (9 years 2 months 1 week 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 5715 times:
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Quoting Srbmod (Reply 12):
and was the MD-11 used on the short-lived flights from JFK to the Middle East?

Yes, DL started JFK-TLV and JFK-CAI-DXB flights in the Summer of 2001 using MD11s - unfortunately these were suspended right after 9/11.

Quoting Srbmod (Reply 12):
They couldn't park the 777 at a regular DL gate, so they parked us to the side and we had to use the mobile lounges

Must have been an isolated case. I flew the 777 JFK-CDG quite a bit and always departed from a gate (usually gates 5,6,or 14 at Terminal 3). However, on arrival -it was always a tow-in situation even at the biggest gates (i.e., 5,6,14).


User currently offlineGigneil From United States of America, joined Nov 2002, 16347 posts, RR: 85
Reply 16, posted (9 years 2 months 1 week 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 5659 times:

Quoting Panamair (Reply 7):
Not true. During the previous rounds, DL did propose an ATL-JFK-PEK-PVG routing.

Well, not exactly.

I think it was ATL-JFK-PEK and ATL-CVG-PVG or vice versa with some changing of the destination based on the day.

N


User currently offlineTinPusher007 From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 977 posts, RR: 1
Reply 17, posted (9 years 2 months 1 week 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 5589 times:

Quoting RJpieces (Reply 9):
It would be very wise for DL to try to enter the Asian market from NYC as Asia is one of the fastest growing global destinations these days.

It's much easier and better for them to codeshare with NW, as they do.

It might be easier at the moment...but DL has a miniscule presence in Asia which is a very important region for a global airline. DL does need to establish itself in Asia. With the growth of businesses and population in China specifically...DL absolutely needs to make a go of it with its own metal.



"Flying isn't inherently dangerous...but very unforgiving of carelessness, incapacity or neglect."
User currently offlineTsnamm From United States of America, joined May 2005, 628 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (9 years 2 months 1 week 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 5548 times:

Quoting TinPusher007 (Reply 17):
but DL has a miniscule presence in Asia which is a very important region for a global airline. DL does need to establish itself in Asia.

DL used to have a fair amount of Asian destinations when it had a hub in PDX...I think they ran to NGO/KIX/NRT/HKG/TPE/SEL from PDX....the HKG route was moved to LAX...I'm not sure what happened to the rest...


User currently offlineRwSEA From Netherlands, joined Jan 2005, 3093 posts, RR: 2
Reply 19, posted (9 years 2 months 1 week 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 5509 times:

Quoting TinPusher007 (Reply 17):
It might be easier at the moment...but DL has a miniscule presence in Asia which is a very important region for a global airline. DL does need to establish itself in Asia. With the growth of businesses and population in China specifically...DL absolutely needs to make a go of it with its own metal.

DL's problem with Asia is still the lack of a decent hub for Asian service. ATL is way too far and out of the way for the vast majority of pax, and CVG and SLC could never support the flights based on their weak O&D traffic. If DL were to expand in Asia, JFK might be the best choice, or possibly a new build-up at LAX. The other option would be to add NRT from its hubs and focus cities, and let NW carry the pax from NRT to other Asian destinations.


User currently offlineORD From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 1381 posts, RR: 1
Reply 20, posted (9 years 2 months 1 week 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 5472 times:

Quoting Tsnamm (Reply 18):
...I think they ran to NGO/KIX/NRT/HKG/TPE/SEL from PDX....the HKG route was moved to LAX.

I don't believe HKG was ever served from PDX. The initial HKG flight went LAX-ANC-HKG. Later it was served nonstop from LAX.


User currently offlineTinPusher007 From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 977 posts, RR: 1
Reply 21, posted (9 years 2 months 1 week 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 5441 times:

Quoting RwSEA (Reply 19):
DL's problem with Asia is still the lack of a decent hub for Asian service. ATL is way too far and out of the way for the vast majority of pax, and CVG and SLC could never support the flights based on their weak O&D traffic. If DL were to expand in Asia, JFK might be the best choice, or possibly a new build-up at LAX. The other option would be to add NRT from its hubs and focus cities, and let NW carry the pax from NRT to other Asian destinations.

I couldn't agree with you more. In keeping with the idea of DL flying their own metal, I think JFK would be the best option. There is really no limit to the number of cities that DL can serve from NYC, both domestic and Int'l. AA and DL both slept on JFK and let LGA and EWR dominate domestic traffic in NYC. Then, in comes B6 which stimulated a ton of traffic at JFK. DL is growing JFK, but they need to grow it more and dominate (easier said than done, I know). I think they need to make JFK another hub.



"Flying isn't inherently dangerous...but very unforgiving of carelessness, incapacity or neglect."
User currently offlineRwSEA From Netherlands, joined Jan 2005, 3093 posts, RR: 2
Reply 22, posted (9 years 2 months 1 week 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 5382 times:

Quoting TinPusher007 (Reply 21):
I couldn't agree with you more. In keeping with the idea of DL flying their own metal, I think JFK would be the best option. There is really no limit to the number of cities that DL can serve from NYC, both domestic and Int'l. AA and DL both slept on JFK and let LGA and EWR dominate domestic traffic in NYC. Then, in comes B6 which stimulated a ton of traffic at JFK. DL is growing JFK, but they need to grow it more and dominate (easier said than done, I know). I think they need to make JFK another hub.

Definitely. I'd like to see DL continue to expand JFK domestically, and also to Latin America and Europe. As far as Asia is concened, JFK is probably the best bet. However, DL has never been strong in Asia.

I wonder if it might make sense for DL to focus on the Atlantic, which has always been its strong-suit. Rather than trying to compete in Asia with everyone else, how about adding back some of the old PanAm destinations, and even starting Africa? DL would be in a great position to leverage it's ATL and JFK operations. They could add ARN, VIE, DUS, HAM, GVA, LYN, LEN, CPH, PRG, etc. It would also be great to see them bring back TLV, CAI, and DXB. They could also lead the way and add JNB, CPT, or LOS with some 787's a few years down the road.

While I agree that it would really cool to see DL expand in Asia, the location of their hubs would be ideal to expand Europe and be a leader in Africa ...


User currently offlinePanamair From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 4895 posts, RR: 25
Reply 23, posted (9 years 2 months 1 week 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 5237 times:
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The problem with DL expanding to those secondary European destinations is the lack of suitable a/c. The 763ER which is their primary transatlantic a/c is too large on a year-round basis for some of these destinations (the only way CO can make OSL,HAM, etc. work is with the 752 and the 762). Also the transatlantic is brutally competitive and is more or less a mature market. DL is now seriously looking at South America once again (e.g., applying to start JFK-EZE) but that market is notoriously volatile (comes and goes depending on the economic situation) and still subjected to restrictive air service agreements which limit the number of carriers/flights (e.g., Argentina and Brazil)

User currently offlineJumbojet From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 1159 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (9 years 2 months 1 week 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 5141 times:

DL to this point, has an extensive flight schedule from JFK. The European routes closely rival that of ATL Why not add from JFK? after all, how many millions of people live in the metro area?

As I understand it, DL can apply for Asian routes again in 2007. I am sure there gonna do there homework to decide what is there best course of action to come out the winner, even if it means Asian routes from JFK


25 STT757 : Their JFK facilities are quite antiquated by today's standards and would not be able to handle more traffic, they would need to invest atleast $1 Bil
26 Post contains images DAL767400ER : The good thing is that most of the construction done at ATL is being paid for by the airport, not DL . And there are already alot of upgrades going o
27 TinPusher007 : I agree that JFK is very much in need of being upgraded. But I disagree that DL needs to put all its eggs in the big basket that is ATL (again). DL o
28 N62NA : They share their LGA terminal with NW, yes? I thought that was one of those "new" terminals built on the east end of the airport. How old is the DL t
29 Klwright69 : This is a nice thought, but it's easier said than done. JFK has been so problematic for DL. And I honestly can't understand why. Maybe someone can ex
30 TinPusher007 : I agree with you...I haven't the slightest idea why they can't seem to make things work at JFK. DL is a household name in NYC and has been for a long
31 RJpieces : I haven't the slightest idea why they can't seem to make things work at JFK. What makes you think things aren't working? Delta has a huge amount of tr
32 Delta4eva : IIRC, didn't Delta announce updates for JFK a couple of years back after the new terminal was put on hold? Other than that, I don't think any upgrade
33 Klwright69 : You are right. But as I said, I don't understand why some routes don't some to work out that clearly OUGHT to be a good fit. I gave two examples. Obv
34 STT757 : The DL plan had called for no new structures at all, no new buildings. They were going to renovate T-2 (why Lord only knows) and add some RJ gates, t
35 STT757 : DL's ATL operation is almost a true "Global" hub, Emirates would kill to have something like ATL. They should invest every penny into making ATL a pr
36 STT757 : They are going to spend $300 Million to upgrade the HVAC, and baggage systems.
37 Tsnamm : DL code shares with El Al...so they can use their own assets elsewhere...
38 Jhooper : I believe DL still only has 8 B777 jets (7001-7008). With 3 of them needed for the ATL-NRT service, that only leaves 5 for the rest of the runs to Eur
39 Jumbojet : Delta can next apply for Asian routes in 2007 I believe. If they are awarded them in 2007, and if they apply for these routes from JFK, which by the w
40 TinPusher007 : This is very true and I agree with you. But DL's dominant position on ATL is secure for the moment and though facilities could use a face-lift, they
41 Post contains images DAL767400ER : STT757, thanks for the exact info. I haven't read anything on the plans in 4 years, so my memory was a bit sketchy on the details .
42 Klwright69 : If DL is serious in serving Asia from JFK in the near future, they would have kept NRT. That seems like a no-brainer. When CO decided to start Asia s
43 Panamair : While the NYC area is a large market for Asia (and hence the belief that DL should start JFK-Asia flights), it is also a lot more competitive with man
44 Jumbojet : Is Delta kicking themselves today for giving up all these past Asian routes they had? and also, it seems that this quote has some validity to it: May
45 TinPusher007 : I support your argument but as far as KE is concerned that might have something to do with being a Skyteam member and codeshare partner on the route.
46 Airzim : People are this forum are way too naive about alliances and code shares. Do you think for one minute that if DL was going to make money on a JFK-TLV r
47 Avek00 : ATL-NRT works because 1) the greatest demand for Southeast USA/Latin America - Asia travel is to Japan, and 2) a MIA-NRT nonstop does not yet exist.
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