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SBN Airport Work Stalled  
User currently offlineKarlB737 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 3103 posts, RR: 10
Posted (9 years 2 months 1 week 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 2254 times:

Planned Airport Work:

http://www.sbnair.com/Airport/FutureDev.php

Stalled:

Courtesy: The Indianapolis Star

http://www.indystar.com/apps/pbcs.dl...icle?AID=/20050616/NEWS01/50616005

23 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineNkops From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 2662 posts, RR: 6
Reply 1, posted (9 years 2 months 1 week 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 2195 times:

I think she is just holding out for mo' money!!!  dollarsign 


I have no association with Spirit Airlines
User currently offlineMisbeehavin From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 914 posts, RR: 3
Reply 2, posted (9 years 2 months 1 week 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 2179 times:

What? They actually had plans to expand SBN (a.k.a. Michiana Regional Transportation Center)? Why?

User currently offlineAdipasqu From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 238 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (9 years 2 months 1 week 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 2168 times:

Although most planes going into SBN are DC-9's or smaller (with an occasional WB charter for the opposing team playing ND in football), it can get extremely hot and humid there. If the winds are not favorable, the CRJ's had issues with weight restrictions (esp. during the summer when the wind is blowing north towards Lake Michigan). Now, this was all before they expanded the main runway (9R/27L) to 8400 ft, I believe. I would think that would be plenty long to land a fully-loaded CRJ there in even the most unfavorable weather conditions, but if crosswinds close 9R/27L (which actually happened to me once on a trip to SBN from CVG on a DL CRJ) then you are only left with 18/36, which is only 6000 ft and actually in very poor condition (at least it was when I landed on it). 6000 ft on a hot day with a fully loaded CRJ is not enough, I guess, which I find funny since I bet a 752 could do it (I know, I'm comparing apples with oranges, but the 752 rocketship will always hold a special place in my heart). Although, AF-1 used 9R with plenty of room to spare when W spoke at my graduation at ND (ICK!!!).


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User currently offlineCrjonbeez From United States of America, joined Nov 2004, 317 posts, RR: 3
Reply 4, posted (9 years 2 months 1 week 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 2150 times:

i caught the local news last night, they said the woman was offered 93,000 for her house. it doesn't look to be more than 800 sq. ft! 93 G's is a whole lot for a house that size around here. the heaviest i've personally brought FDX's B722 up to and watched it take off was 45,000 lbs of fuel from runway 9R. i have NEVER seen it t/o from 18/36. any runway expansions don't seem necessary to me at this time, but i'm not the one in charge.

by the way Adipasqu, aside from the DC9's NWA brings in, don't forget about the new MD8x's that allegiant will be introducing in a month and a half and the charter flights from casino express 732's as well. not that it makes any difference really....

the only reason i can come up with to explain such runways are notre dame football season. between a/c size changes (i.e. crj->DC9, crj1->crj7) and the absurd frequency of part 91 and part 135 a/c landing, the size of SBN isn't necessary.


User currently offlineMisbeehavin From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 914 posts, RR: 3
Reply 5, posted (9 years 2 months 1 week 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 2142 times:

Quoting Adipasqu (Reply 3):
when W spoke at my graduation at ND (ICK!!!).

Ha ha! Ick indeed. At least you had someone known. My year, all we got was the Lt. Governor of Indiana. I'm sure no one even remembers his name. I sure as hell don't!


User currently offlineAdipasqu From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 238 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (9 years 2 months 1 week 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 2123 times:

Quoting Misbeehavin (Reply 5):
Ha ha! Ick indeed. At least you had someone known. My year, all we got was the Lt. Governor of Indiana. I'm sure no one even remembers his name. I sure as hell don't!

Lt. Gov. Joe Kernan...I was a freshman in the band and played for your graduation. BTW, of the 4 commencement speeches I saw my 4 years there, Kernan's was the best. Elizabeth Dole, Kofi Annan, and W were the other three.



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User currently offlineTornado82 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (9 years 2 months 1 week 6 days ago) and read 2100 times:

Quoting Adipasqu (Reply 6):
Lt. Gov. Joe Kernan...I was a freshman in the band and played for your graduation. BTW, of the 4 commencement speeches I saw my 4 years there, Kernan's was the best. Elizabeth Dole, Kofi Annan, and W were the other three.

Wow... all we got at Valpo for my (albeit December) graduation was the founder of the Pampered Chef company, and this spring my girlfriend got the guy who invented the X-flight space plane thing... who is quite the scatterbrain when he talks. I guess that extra $10k a year you guys pay down the road over there does make up for something besides a bigger football stadium  Smile

I swear I made a post last night about the lack of necessity for this runway project, maybe it didn't go through because I see no reason for it to have been axed so I'll try again...

The prevailing winds at SBN are more than likely SW/NW than due west. I guess a runway 27 makes a good "average" but then you always have a pretty bad crosswind vector. Room with the toll road, Rt. 31, and Rt 20 (I think??) was an issue I'm sure, but a 14/32 6/24 runway setup would have been MUCH more efficient at using the prevailing winds in SBN. For instance, in the spring/summer days with the horrid humidity that people are talking about with weight restrictions (more on that in a minute) the winds would probably be from 220-240 or so. In the winter, those beautiful lake effect snow blasts come from winds from about 320 up around 25kts at times, SN+, and a Vis. around 1/4mi. A 360° wind in the winter, to go along with this 18/36 runway extension, wouldn't bring any snow at all to SBN and typically would be bringing nice VFR conditions. Snow would be further west around MGC or especially VPZ in a very narrow band. Many times in the Rt 231/49 corrdiors. It's the winter days with the winds out of about 320° that drop SBN to an IFR snow event, and probably down to Cat II conditions. Significantly busier airports like CMH operate without a crosswind runway (10/28 L/R) and what SBN is doing would bring their crosswind capabilities up to that of PIT or PHL. Seems like some overkill. Especially for a place that to my knowledge doesn't have CatII on their main runway. With the land they already have for Runway 18/36 existing, and with the land for the small 27R that I dont believe is even used anymore, why not try to lay in a 14/32 with some Cat II for the winter?? Or just leave well enough alone. SBN is a beautiful little facility, but it did lose 2 carriers in the past couple years (US and ATA), and traffic numbers aren't that high to need all these runway improvements I wouldn't think.

As for the weight restrictions on the RJ's... no DL CRJ to CVG is running anywhere near MTOW. That's like a 200nm flight, the fuel loads would be minimal. CRJ's to ATL might be the problem. Otherwise nobody else runs a long RJ flight out of SBN now that US is gone... unless NW to MSP poses a problem. Everybody else serving SBN does it on props, or a very short hop to DTW or ORD.


User currently offlineAdipasqu From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 238 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (9 years 2 months 1 week 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 2043 times:

Quoting Tornado82 (Reply 7):
As for the weight restrictions on the RJ's... no DL CRJ to CVG is running anywhere near MTOW. That's like a 200nm flight, the fuel loads would be minimal. CRJ's to ATL might be the problem. Otherwise nobody else runs a long RJ flight out of SBN now that US is gone... unless NW to MSP poses a problem. Everybody else serving SBN does it on props, or a very short hop to DTW or ORD.

I agree that on a SBN-CVG leg a DL CRJ isn't going to be anywhere close to the published MTOW under typical conditions. However, DL does not normally refuel in SBN so they load 'em up in CVG, where the runways are plenty long, and they can arrive in SBN with "too much fuel" for the return trip. That, plus a full flight, plus unfavorable weather conditions has caused problems. I was on a SBN-CVG flight where the pilot explained this over the intercom to the passengers, and after standing on it for a bit, we went piano keys to piano keys on 9R before wheels up. It was a little nerve racking, but exciting nonetheless.



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User currently offlineTornado82 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 9, posted (9 years 2 months 1 week 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 2030 times:

Quoting Adipasqu (Reply 8):
However, DL does not normally refuel in SBN so they load 'em up in CVG, where the runways are plenty long, and they can arrive in SBN with "too much fuel" for the return trip.

That is true about not taking fuel in SBN at least for the CVG turns (I'd imagine ATL turns take some fuel though). They also have some nice quick turn around times there! I saw 20 minutes chocks down to chocks up on a CRJ-700 running full both directions after the inbound was running a few minutes late. The CRJ-700 seems to leap off the runway despite a full pax load heading back to CVG. My first ever CRJ-700 flight was SBN-CVG and I was shocked how much more powerful it was on the roll, and the climb performance, vs the -200's

Are those CRJ's really that big of a dog though that still somewhat far under MTOW they're going to use the majority of an 8400 ft runway? Yikes. Would hate to be on the ERI CRJ flights with their 6500 foot runway in that case. I've noticed CRJ's using a good bit of the runway at ABE on hot days, but never anything extreme, and we're about 1000 shorter than SBN, and about 300mi further from CVG. I'm assuming the day you speak of with wx was a calm wind, hot, humid day??


User currently offlineAdipasqu From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 238 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (9 years 2 months 1 week 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 1978 times:

Quoting Tornado82 (Reply 9):
Are those CRJ's really that big of a dog though that still somewhat far under MTOW they're going to use the majority of an 8400 ft runway?

I guess so. I remember the captain specifically saying the CRJ-200 we were on takes up a lot of runway. And yes, wind was calm, 95 degrees and close to 100% humidity. Miserable!!! One of the (many) things I'll never miss about South Bend, Indiana. I have only been on a CRJ-700 twice, and it too seemed like a rocketship compared to the CRJ-200 dog.



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User currently offlineSyncmaster From United States of America, joined Jul 2002, 2027 posts, RR: 10
Reply 11, posted (9 years 2 months 1 week 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 1966 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

I go spotting at SBN all the time, I've never NOT seen a DL CRJ get refueled, including CVG flights. And DL is normally the only one's I really watch.


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Charles Juszczak
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Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Charles Juszczak



Personally, I didn't see the need for the runway expansion right away, but in the future I can see it, but maybe now with the Allegiant flights to LAS and possibly SFB (or MCO?), they might need it. Personally, I think the terminal needs an update first, especially concourse A.

-Charlie


User currently offlineSyncmaster From United States of America, joined Jul 2002, 2027 posts, RR: 10
Reply 12, posted (9 years 2 months 1 week 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 1961 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Also, for the record, the AZO Terminal Project has also been stalled over fears of losing government funding.

-Charlie


User currently offlineTjwgrr From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 2434 posts, RR: 3
Reply 13, posted (9 years 2 months 1 week 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 1938 times:

Quoting Adipasqu (Reply 3):
AF-1 used 9R with plenty of room to spare when W spoke at my graduation at ND (ICK!!!).



Quoting Misbeehavin (Reply 5):
Ha ha! Ick indeed. At least you had someone known.

Thanks for sharing your political views. I'm glad we have a couple of enlightened individuals sharing their views in this thread about SBN.....  sarcastic 



Direct KNOBS, maintain 2700' until established on the localizer, cleared ILS runway 26 left approach.
User currently offlineTornado82 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 14, posted (9 years 2 months 1 week 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 1926 times:

Quoting Adipasqu (Reply 10):
95 degrees and close to 100% humidity

To meteorologists like myself, and pilots (in terms of denisty altitude) Dew Point is what matters, not relative humidity. IF you had 95 degree temps and 100% humidity your Td would have been 95 degrees as well. The highest I've ever seen this far north is an 83 degree dew point, and that was VERY rare... typically it would be a 70 degree dew point to make one of those oppressively hot humid days. Don't worry, it's not your fault, it's the fault of weather channel and TV media who brag up relative humidity instead of dew points, when dew points are what pretty much matters. A 100% relative humidity on a 70 degree day is the exact same amount of moisture as a 44% humidity on a 95 degree day... and trust me that 44% would seem unbearable. Just trying to meteorologically enlighten the world one post at a time.. not trying to be an ass here.  Smile

Quoting Syncmaster (Reply 11):
I go spotting at SBN all the time, I've never NOT seen a DL CRJ get refueled, including CVG flights. And DL is normally the only one's I really watch.

The previously mentioned flight I talked about with the quick turn, the captain even said "Thanks to our ground crew we'll be on our way on time despite our late arrival, I guess it's a good thing we didn't need any fuel to help us make up that time" (as the fuel trucks were on the neighboring CRJ-200 to ATL, and across the apron on a Chautauqua ERJ 145 flying for UA-X going to ORD). I can remember SOME taking fuel (usually on IFR days) but on this particular Sunday afternoon with just a few SCT clouds up high and light winds... no fuel.

Quoting Syncmaster (Reply 11):

Personally, I didn't see the need for the runway expansion right away, but in the future I can see it, but maybe now with the Allegiant flights to LAS and possibly SFB (or MCO?), they might need it. Personally, I think the terminal needs an update first, especially concourse A.

We've got those Allegiant flights to Orlando too here at ABE, on about 1000 ft less runway, it's not an issue. If SBN expanded the main runway much more they'd be longer than CLE's runways, and CLE is a hub and has international flights... and their crosswind runway is already longer than CLE's. No airport the size of SBN needs more than 8000 feet unless they'd have extensive freight operations, beyond that is just an unnecessary waste of taxpayer money. How about putting it towards that mythical Rt 2 bypass in LaPorte instead, which will bring alot more Porter Countians into SBN instead of the Chicago airports... and there's alot of mobile people and money floating around in Porter County. If SBN adds more to those runways they'll be like FWA... all the runway in the world and nothing flying on them.


User currently offlineAdipasqu From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 238 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (9 years 2 months 1 week 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 1908 times:

Quoting Tjwgrr (Reply 13):
Thanks for sharing your political views. I'm glad we have a couple of enlightened individuals sharing their views in this thread about SBN.....

Why don't you read the first half of the sentence you quote before you decide to flame me. AF-1 taking off of 9R at SBN after my graduation is more than appropriate for a thread about SBN expansion. It's not my fault that W's speech was the worst of the four I saw while I was there. Were you there? Of course you weren't. Talk about being enlightened...  banghead 



Quoting Tornado82 (Reply 14):
We've got those Allegiant flights to Orlando too here at ABE, on about 1000 ft less runway, it's not an issue.

Again, I believe many of the issues that have been discussed here are limited to the CRJ-200. The MD-80 is the "hot-rod" (IMO) of the 100-150 seat market and is probably only surpassed in "high and hot" performance by the 752 (which, of course, is a bit larger). So, it wouldn't surprise me at all if under the same wx conditions at MTOW the MD-80 actually use less runway than a CRJ-200.  twocents 

Quoting Tornado82 (Reply 14):
If SBN adds more to those runways they'll be like FWA... all the runway in the world and nothing flying on them.

Agreed, with the exception of the occasional WB charter for ND football. Given its proximity to ORD, MDW, DTW, IND, CVG, CMH, and CLE, SBN will never be more than a regional airport that is convenient for those of us flying back for a football game or other business in the area.

Quoting Tornado82 (Reply 14):
Just trying to meteorologically enlighten the world one post at a time.. not trying to be an ass here.

I understand, but a thunderstorm hit earlier in the day and it was exceptionally steamy! Absolutely disgusting!!! The wx came from the captain, so I trusted the information he was getting was fairly accurate.



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User currently offlineFATFlyer From United States of America, joined May 2001, 5801 posts, RR: 15
Reply 16, posted (9 years 2 months 1 week 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 1856 times:

Quoting Tornado82 (Reply 14):
We've got those Allegiant flights to Orlando too here at ABE, on about 1000 ft less runway, it's not an issue.

Allegiant at ABE? No. You must be confusing Allegiant and TransMeridian, 2 different companies. ABE isn't on this route map.  Wink
http://www.allegiantair.com/route_map.htm



"Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness." - Mark Twain
User currently offlineTornado82 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 17, posted (9 years 2 months 1 week 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 1836 times:

Eh... FAR 121 carrier.. goes to Orlando-SFB.. MD-80s... close enough.  embarrassed  <-- that's the embarassed face for those of you who haven't figured it out.

Sorry about that one, my bad. Yes, it's definitely TM in ABE. Same plane types though so I made my point there about takeoffs and runways. We don't need anymore 121's in ABE we've got more than enough already between TMA and Hooters... we need real airline service like Co-Ex to IAH, or a US or Delta RJ to Florida... stuff like that. No offense to those of you who work for the charters though.


User currently offlineFATFlyer From United States of America, joined May 2001, 5801 posts, RR: 15
Reply 18, posted (9 years 2 months 1 week 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 1804 times:

Quoting Tornado82 (Reply 17):
FAR 121 carrier.. goes to Orlando-SFB.. MD-80s

Uhmmmmm, I hate to do this again but if you mean Allegiant is operating scheduled charters to SFB you might want to do a little checking.

Allegiant doesn't do their SFB and LAS flights as public charters. They stopped that for their regularly scheduled services about 4 or 5 years ago when their certificate was reissued. They are now simply a passenger carrier like the "real airlines".



"Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness." - Mark Twain
User currently offlineTornado82 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 19, posted (9 years 2 months 1 week 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 1778 times:

Says on one little part of their website under "About us" FAR 121, and I just flew from that... but upon further review (I admittedly didn't read it closely enough at first) I'll rescind all comments and respect Allegiant as being a scheduled carrier. Anyone got a slice of that crow pie for me??

Regardless... I was still just making the analogy that no matter who they are and what FAR they operate under... they still get an MD-80 series up on a hot day on a shorter runway than SBN's, so it must only be the RJ's causing the problems. And I think that was agreed upon above here. After all, an MD-80 is like an NWA DC-9, and they're the greatest planes of all times. *Puts on flame retardant suit*

Even at that though, I dont think any RJ is gonna need even more runway length than SBN has now... if it can't get up in over 8000 ft it doesn't need to get up.


User currently offlineCrjonbeez From United States of America, joined Nov 2004, 317 posts, RR: 3
Reply 20, posted (9 years 2 months 1 week 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 1738 times:

Quoting Adipasqu (Reply 15):
Agreed, with the exception of the occasional WB charter for ND football.

for future reference, most charters operated for football games are not wide guys...typically it's a 752 or a 738/9...we had one 763 last year, only widebody aside from AF1 and typical military aircraft tagging along-C17's, C5's, etc...

Quoting Tornado82 (Reply 9):
That is true about not taking fuel in SBN at least for the CVG turns (I'd imagine ATL turns take some fuel though).

i can tell you first hand right now, the 2:30 and 5:30 comair flights both took fuel today, along with 1,100 gallons for atlantic southeast...i'm the one who did it

comair tries to fuel through SBN to save money, but unless it's a perfect day out, the 50 seaters will take fuel 4 out of 5 times...atlantic southeast to ATL has never been able to fuel through sbn...

common loads on a day like today for comair are 5000 lbs or so, coming in with about 3500 on board for the 50 seaters, where the 70 seater is about 6500 or so, but squeeks out FOB fairly frequently


User currently offlineTornado82 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 21, posted (9 years 2 months 1 week 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 1736 times:

The most frequent flight I took through SBN, and the one I referred to with the Captain making the specific statement, was a -700, and it was going to CVG, on a damn near perfect, relatively cool, and definitely VFR day.

User currently offlineCRJonBeez From United States of America, joined Nov 2004, 317 posts, RR: 3
Reply 22, posted (9 years 2 months 1 week 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 1694 times:

those situations are understandable....the CRJ7 typically leaves CVG with roughly 10,000 lbs or so, certainly enough to get to SBN and back w/o approaching MGTOW, but like i said, the CRJ1/2 is a different story

User currently offlineMisbeehavin From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 914 posts, RR: 3
Reply 23, posted (9 years 2 months 1 week 20 hours ago) and read 1669 times:

Quoting Tjwgrr (Reply 13):
Thanks for sharing your political views. I'm glad we have a couple of enlightened individuals sharing their views in this thread about SBN.....

And your contribution to this thread was...


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