Sponsor Message:
Civil Aviation Forum
My Starred Topics | Profile | New Topic | Forum Index | Help | Search 
After AC Cancellation, Is Airbus #1 In 2005?  
User currently offlineA380900 From France, joined Dec 2003, 1117 posts, RR: 1
Posted (9 years 5 months 1 week 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 9403 times:

Sorry for being insistent on this but with all the good news for Airbus during the Airshow and this Air Canada problem for Boeing, I find it hard to believe that Airbus has still less firm orders than Boeing since Jan 1st 2005.

Does anybody have a reliable figure for both 2005 order book?

I know that Airbus is going to deliver more airplanes this year, I only care but firm orders since Jan 1st 2005.

[Edited 2005-06-19 22:25:22]

34 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineNewark777 From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 9348 posts, RR: 29
Reply 1, posted (9 years 5 months 1 week 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 9383 times:

I'm sorry, I just have to.



Harry



Why grab a Heine when you can grab a Busch?
User currently offlineYUL332LX From Canada, joined Feb 2004, 820 posts, RR: 1
Reply 2, posted (9 years 5 months 1 week 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 9372 times:

I don't know but it has to be close.

Gonna a tight race until the end of the year methinks.



E volavo, volavo felice più in alto del sole, e ancora più su mentre il mondo pian piano spariva lontano laggiù ...
User currently offlineAtmx2000 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 4576 posts, RR: 37
Reply 3, posted (9 years 5 months 1 week 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 9340 times:

Quoting A380900 (Thread starter):
Sorry for being insistent on this but with all the good news for Airbus during the Airshow and this Air Canada problem for Boeing, I find it hard to believe that Airbus has still less firm orders than Boeing since Jan 1st 2005

Exactly how does the Air Canada cancellation affect firm orders? It was never a firm order. Boeing's firm net orders for 2005 through early last week still stands at 363, with Airbus at net 196 through the end of May. Pending orders for Boeing include 373 after subtracting the AC orders. Airbus has 460 pending orders and 37 pending cancellations.



ConcordeBoy is a twin supremacist!! He supports quadicide!!
User currently offlineLeskova From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 6075 posts, RR: 70
Reply 4, posted (9 years 5 months 1 week 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 9336 times:

I find myself in agreement with Newark777 (which, in itself, is quite a surprise to me): who cares?

The year is only halfway through, a lot can happen.

Lots of times, people, political parties or companies have enjoyed a longtime lead, only to lose at the last moment.

Why don't we wait until the 1st of January 2006 to sum up who has garnerd more orders? Anything before that will be pure speculation at best.

Regards,
Frank



Smile - it confuses people!
User currently offlineNewark777 From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 9348 posts, RR: 29
Reply 5, posted (9 years 5 months 1 week 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 9288 times:

I find myself in agreement with Newark777 (which, in itself, is quite a surprise to me)

Unbelievable, I know. But really, this tit for tat "I have more orders than you" bickering that is going back and forth is ridiculous. We are watching a great time in aviation, with both companies rolling out phenomenal planes, and here we are fighting over whether Airbus or Boeing might have a few more orders, and the Paris Air Show isn't helping either. As Leskova said, let's let the dust settle before we start declaring a winner. The AC fall through is not a win for Airbus, it is a loss for the whole aviation community.

Harry



Why grab a Heine when you can grab a Busch?
User currently offlineBreiz From France, joined Mar 2005, 1917 posts, RR: 2
Reply 6, posted (9 years 5 months 1 week 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 9286 times:

Sorry A380900, I do not see the point with such a question.
Airbus and Boeing, and Embraer, and ATR are all going to have a wealthy year and it is what matters (particularly for their employees and of course their shareholders).
All of them build fine planes giving a good choice of applications to the potential customers.
The "mine is bigger than yours" order sensation is funny but not very interesting.


User currently offline9V-SPF From Germany, joined Sep 2001, 1375 posts, RR: 3
Reply 7, posted (9 years 5 months 1 week 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 9194 times:

Quoting Newark777 (Reply 5):
Unbelievable, I know. But really, this tit for tat "I have more orders than you" bickering that is going back and forth is ridiculous. We are watching a great time in aviation, with both companies rolling out phenomenal planes, and here we are fighting over whether Airbus or Boeing might have a few more orders, and the Paris Air Show isn't helping either. As Leskova said, let's let the dust settle before we start declaring a winner. The AC fall through is not a win for Airbus, it is a loss for the whole aviation community.

Exactly! Big grin
Who the hell cares about the number of orders at this or whatever point as longs as the industry remains healthy. I do think that the somewhat unexpected recent success Airbus has had with the A350 is just as good for the competition as the great wins of Boeing with the 787 were earlier this year. While AC´s cancellation is a punch right into the industry´s face, I think that the general tendency concerning future innovations based on economic achievements by both manufacturers is very promising at the moment.


User currently offlineHamlet69 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 2745 posts, RR: 58
Reply 8, posted (9 years 5 months 1 week 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 9031 times:

Why don't you look at the previous post you started asking basically this same question? The answer's already there. . .

Regards,

Hamlet69



Honor the warriors, not the war.
User currently offlineJacobin777 From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 14968 posts, RR: 59
Reply 9, posted (9 years 5 months 1 week 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 9018 times:

i personally don't care about the numbers...but i think

www.justplanes.com

is keeping a good tally



"Up the Irons!"
User currently offlineN766UA From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 8341 posts, RR: 23
Reply 10, posted (9 years 5 months 1 week 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 8963 times:

It's only June.



This Website Censors Me
User currently offlineSjoerd From Belgium, joined Aug 2003, 361 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (9 years 5 months 1 week 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 8943 times:

Airbus is still the cuurent number one ! It's delivering more aircraft than Boeing is. It has been number one for the last couple of years and will be for the next several years...

Boeing (maybe) scoring more orders this years might be an indication that it can possibly become number one again somewhere in the future. (Reminder : last year Airbus received 200 (firm) orders more than Boeing.)

Sjoerd



Flanders + Wallonnia + Brussels = the UNITED STATES of BELGIUM
User currently offlineIkramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 21562 posts, RR: 59
Reply 12, posted (9 years 5 months 1 week 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 8905 times:

Again, same old story.

One guy forwards the false idea that A is still leading in orders, when it isn't.

Then some other guy says that since they will deliver more planes, they are ahead.

You see, for people with an inferiority complex, they thrive on such things. And they will change the rules from year to year to always be the winner, when there really isn't such thing in situations like this.

This is true of B fans as well, which is why it hurt them so that there was a year that A led in orders AND deliveries (or was it two years?).

When B was delivering more than A but A had more orders, A was the "winner." Now, from the same mouths comes the reverse, that A is still the "winner" because they will deliver more planes though the orders are out of balance.

Get over it. They are both big airframe manufacturers, and will be for a long while. Year to year competitions mean nothing, and to get all obsessed as french, germans, brits or americans just demonstrates that Airbus and Boeing are politically motivated which makes the orders less indicative of economics and more of politics. Whenever I hear A fans try to claim that the EU is independent of Airbus, I laugh. And whenever I hear americans claim the same about B, I laugh too.

[Edited 2005-06-20 01:28:49]


Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
User currently offlineFlyAUA From Austria, joined May 2005, 4604 posts, RR: 56
Reply 13, posted (9 years 5 months 1 week 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 8885 times:

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 12):

Very well said Ikramerica  bigthumbsup 



Not drinking, also isn't a solution!
User currently offlineEMBQA From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 9364 posts, RR: 11
Reply 14, posted (9 years 5 months 1 week 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 8846 times:

Actually according to their respective web sites Boeing is STILL number #1 in 2005...

Airbus....196 (May 31, 2005) w/Paris Air Show...475
Boeing....363 (June15, 2005) w/Paris Air Show...511

I tried to provide links, but the Airbus figures are on an .xle Spreadsheet and would not transfer.

[Edited 2005-06-20 01:54:50]


"It's not the size of the dog in the fight, but the size of the fight in the dog"
User currently offlineIkramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 21562 posts, RR: 59
Reply 15, posted (9 years 5 months 1 week 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 8775 times:

Those numbers are meaningless, there were not 280 real orders for A at Paris and to keep putting that distortion forward helps no one. Many of those announcements at Paris were options and commitments, not orders, especially for the A350, a plane not officially announced.

As for the Boeing website, the orders page I see is the one that says they are counting 385 gross orders for 2005 through wednesday, 363 net. Not 511. And this includes some of the real orders announced at Paris, but doesn't include many "orders" from this year because they aren't official (see Qatar, Continental, etc.)



Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
User currently offlineLeskova From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 6075 posts, RR: 70
Reply 16, posted (9 years 5 months 1 week 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 8539 times:

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 12):
When B was delivering more than A but A had more orders, A was the "winner." Now, from the same mouths comes the reverse, that A is still the "winner" because they will deliver more planes though the orders are out of balance.

What actually makes this whole thing really laughable is that Airbus, and the hardcore fans, laughed out loud each time Boeing went through exactly those steps while Airbus was still catching up with them...

First, Boeing said that Airbus would never sell more than a couple of planes (ok, this was in the 70s).

Then, Boeing said that they were the undisputed number one because they got more orders than Airbus.

Then, when Airbus got more orders, Boeing switched to having more deliveries and therefore being number one.

Then, when Airbus outdelivered them (or was this when they got really close?), Boeing claimed that having the bigger backlog was more important and that orders or deliveries meant practically nothing.

And a lot of people were, rightfully so, laughing quite hard about that.


And now, while Airbus itself at least seems to be keeping out of that specific "adaptive discussion" for now (and I seriously hope that, aside from the Airshow "we got more than you did" comments, that both manufacturers will refrain from making fools of themselves), we now get the same from fans on this website.

And the Boeing supporters are, rightfully so, laughing quite hard about that.

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 12):
Get over it.

Good summation - agree 101%.

Regards,
Frank



Smile - it confuses people!
User currently offlineIwok From Sweden, joined Jan 2005, 1108 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (9 years 5 months 1 week 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 8521 times:

Quoting A380900 (Thread starter):
Sorry for being insistent on this but with all the good news for Airbus during the Airshow and this Air Canada problem for Boeing, I find it hard to believe that Airbus has still less firm orders than Boeing since Jan 1st 2005.

A380900, welcome back from your "vacation." Seeing as you keep asking the same question over and again, I guess it seems pointless to talk about options vs. orders, the amount of calendar time remaining in 2005 etc etc.  Yeah sure

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 12):
Get over it.

Bingo!

iwok


User currently offlinePipoA380 From Switzerland, joined May 2005, 1594 posts, RR: 51
Reply 18, posted (9 years 5 months 1 week 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 7941 times:

Quoting Newark777 (Reply 5):
"I have more orders than you" bickering that is going back and forth is ridiculous.

It's hard, but I have to agree with Newark777 too! Let's wait until the end of 2005 and until then, let's keep watching our skies for flying beauties!

Soon it's gonna be "I posted more on the forum than you" or "my **ck is longer than yours....



It's not about AIRBUS. it's not about BOEING. It's all about the beauty of FLYING.
User currently offlineGlideslope From United States of America, joined May 2004, 1623 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (9 years 5 months 1 week 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 7407 times:

It's only a matter of time until China and Russia become players in commercial aircraft. Then we can have A vs B vs C vs R.

I can hardly wait.  Smile



To know your Enemy, you must become your Enemy.” Sun Tzu
User currently offlineJoni From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 20, posted (9 years 5 months 1 week 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 7401 times:

Quoting EMBQA (Reply 14):
Airbus....196 (May 31, 2005) w/Paris Air Show...475
Boeing....363 (June15, 2005) w/Paris Air Show...511

So summing it up we could conclude that going into le Bourget Boeing was way ahead in 2005 orders, but at the airshow Airbus more or less pulled even with them.

It's very unlikely that any of the annoucements counted as orders in Paris are options, since Boeing and Airbus both have a clear policy of not counting options as orders (The Qatar case nonwithstanding). Many of those orders weren't firmed up yet, but the overwhelming majority of them will be.


User currently offlineToulouse From Switzerland, joined Apr 2005, 2759 posts, RR: 57
Reply 21, posted (9 years 5 months 1 week 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 7301 times:

Quoting Newark777 (Reply 5):
The AC fall through is not a win for Airbus, it is a loss for the whole aviation community.

Well said Newark777!



Long live Aer Lingus!
User currently offlineIntothinair From Germany, joined Mar 2005, 392 posts, RR: 2
Reply 22, posted (9 years 5 months 1 week 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 7055 times:

Quoting EMBQA (Reply 14):
Airbus....196 (May 31, 2005) w/Paris Air Show...475
Boeing....363 (June15, 2005) w/Paris Air Show...511

According to justplanes.com, Boeing would have 591 orders, not 511!!!!
Weird eh, though your source might be correct, maybe some order is missing that might include the Lion Air order for 60 B737's.
MMMM, different websites, different answers Big grin, though some of these orders on justplanes.com MIGHT not go through, or are atleast not confirmed yet.

Cheers, Konstantin G.


User currently offlineBohlman From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 23, posted (9 years 5 months 1 week 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 6196 times:

it's interesting to go through here reading exacty who has read the posts before them and who hasn't. the people who have read the whole post agree that this is a worthless agument/discussion to have, because we won't know the impact of paris until at least a couple weeks, when some of those orders (for A and B) fall through to probably a much more conservative number for both manufacturers. the people who haven't decide to answer the question, either for boeing of for airbus. needless to say, i agree with all the fine people above who say "who gives a f***!" let's wait a couple months, THEN we can have this discussion, if we're still in the mood for it.

User currently offlineSkymileman From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 24, posted (9 years 5 months 1 week 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 5152 times:

Has AC officially cancelled their order? I didn't hear about that. That is sure a shame.

25 Birdbrainz : My apologies if this was mentioned previously, but I don't think we've heard the last of Air Canada buying Boeing widebodies. I remember how United's
26 PM : And why do we even attempt to count orders (or deliveries or whatever) in somewhat articial twelve month bites? Don't longer term trends tell us more
27 YEGspotter : I firmly believe that the AC announcement is merely a negotiating tactic aimed at the pilots. I may be completely wrong, but I feel that AC will event
28 Leskova : Yes, they do - but I doubt that most people have an attention span that will permit them to look at time periods of more than 12 months (with 12 mont
29 Glom : You give them too much credit, Leskova. When Airbus gets an order, they are going to thrash Boeing. A week later when Boeing gets an order, they are
30 Scotland1979 : Maybe AC will try to surprise us... could be A380 that AC wants A good start???? wink!
31 EMBQA : Well Paris is over and the numbers are out: Airbus- 413 ytd Boeing- 592 ytd
32 Post contains images FlyAUA : Am I missing something The Boeing website states 363ytd as of 21st June 2005... Source:http://active.boeing.com/commercial/orders/index.cfm
33 EMBQA : Am I missing something The Boeing website states 363ytd as of 21st June 2005... Well I saw that, but those numbers came from the JustPlanes web site..
34 Post contains images FlyAUA : Aaaah ha, but not anymore
Top Of Page
Forum Index

This topic is archived and can not be replied to any more.

Printer friendly format

Similar topics:More similar topics...
FI: Is Airbus In Danger Of Being A One Trick Pony? posted Tue Nov 28 2006 15:45:28 by Leelaw
Is Airbus In Crisis Mode? posted Mon Apr 25 2005 18:17:47 by Clickhappy
Boeing: We'll Outsell Airbus In 2005 posted Tue Apr 5 2005 14:18:49 by PANAM_DC10
After AA Who Is The Largest Carrier In SJU posted Fri Jan 27 2006 02:25:12 by Jdwfloyd
Report: Airbus Tops Boeing In 2005 Orders posted Wed Jan 18 2006 00:31:14 by AerospaceFan
Airbus Could Have Sold 775 A32X In 2005 posted Mon Jan 9 2006 19:00:35 by Astuteman
Reuters: Boeing Tops Airbus In Orders For 2005 posted Fri Jan 6 2006 17:33:49 by KJFK31L
MEA Is Making Profit In 2005 Despite Everything posted Wed Dec 7 2005 06:42:43 by Aleksandar
Airbus To Match Boeing In 2005 Orders. posted Mon Nov 21 2005 17:08:25 by WINGS
Is Airbus Number One Again For 2005? posted Fri Jun 17 2005 18:29:58 by A380900