YYZ757FAN From Canada, joined Feb 2005, 91 posts, RR: 0 Reply 1, posted (7 years 11 months 1 week 1 hour ago) and read 6858 times:
If Air Canada picks up the 346s would it have the same issues with its Pilots that caused the 777 cancellation or is the 346 type rated the same as AC's current 345's??. Correct me if I am wrong but was there not a problem with the Pilots union when AC first brought the 345 on line?
It seems that Air Canada's management wants to move to a Boeing widebody fleet, I am hoping that the recent cancellation is just a short delay, saner heads prevail and the 777/787 order is picked up again.
KrisYYZ From Canada, joined Nov 2004, 1575 posts, RR: 0 Reply 2, posted (7 years 11 months 1 week ago) and read 6825 times:
I don't think so, even though AC is in great need for higher capacity on many of its international routes. Those Firm aircraft orders where cancelled back in April when the Boeing order was placed.
Milton clearly stated that AC does not want 4 engine aircraft and the key to profitability is twin engine, highly efficient aircraft. Although the A345/346 is a great aircraft, it is not a twin or fuel efficient when compared to B773ER/772LR.
So AC will either delay any order of a new type of aircraft, try to find more A345/343/333 or B767 or there is an possibility of some B772ER or other twins.
I think AC shouldn't of made this order without having a its pilots support in the first place. I know only 1/3 of pilots voted, and some of them are going to be very disappointed, I'm sure some of them really wanted to fly the B777's.
KrisYYZ From Canada, joined Nov 2004, 1575 posts, RR: 0 Reply 4, posted (7 years 11 months 1 week ago) and read 6762 times:
Quoting YYZ757FAN (Reply 1): Correct me if I am wrong but was there not a problem with the Pilots union when AC first brought the 345 on line?
That's what I thought, but the pilots agreed to fly them at the same pay as the A343's because there is only a slight difference between the A343 and A345.
FlyAUA From Austria, joined May 2005, 4604 posts, RR: 57 Reply 5, posted (7 years 11 months 1 week ago) and read 6723 times:
As much as I'd like them to go back to an almost all-airbus fleet, I think the manufacturer didn't play a role in this conflict. Acoording to my understanding of the dispute the order was not cancelled because the aircraft were Boeing (if we believe what the media reports). And besides, Air Canada has stated they want to go all-boeing. So I doubt this will happen for the 2 reasons stated above.
Boeing4ever From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 6, posted (7 years 11 months 1 week ago) and read 6636 times:
I believe AC cancelled the A346 orders in anticipation of the 787/777 orders going through. As it stands, they have no pending widebody orders save for any remaining 330s and 343s not yet delivered (anyone wanna indicate yes/no to that?)
KrisYYZ From Canada, joined Nov 2004, 1575 posts, RR: 0 Reply 7, posted (7 years 11 months 1 week ago) and read 6601 times:
Quoting Boeing4ever (Reply 6): I believe AC cancelled the A346 orders in anticipation of the 787/777 orders going through. As it stands, they have no pending widebody orders save for any remaining 330s and 343s not yet delivered (anyone wanna indicate yes/no to that?)
Thats right, AC's last widebody order was for the 2 A345 and 3 A346 back in the late 90's. Since then AC has only acquired leased aircraft, in the last few months 3 B763er's and 1 A343 has joined the fleet.
Boeing4ever From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 9, posted (7 years 11 months 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 6430 times:
Quoting RJ111 (Reply 8): All 4 A340's have the same type rating. So no, transition wouldn't be an issue if AC had done the logical thing.
What are you implying!? The whole bone the pilots had to pick wasn't with type rating issues. Sorry, but true airline logic does not base a 6 billion dollar deal on just one factor like type rating. The pilots objected that the 777 would be larger than the A340s, yet the pilots who flew them would be paid the same rate as the A340 pilots. To suggest the A346 would have avoided this is utter bullshit, for the A346 is even longer than the 773!
Had management had the balls and the foresight to clear the damn order with the pilots in the first place, the whole mess would have been avoided.
Starrion From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 1081 posts, RR: 2 Reply 11, posted (7 years 11 months 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 6399 times:
I don't believe the question was could the pilots transition from one aircraft type to another, but rather are they willing to transition to the 346 for the same amount of pay? If the pilots had agreed to it, presumably AC would take the new aircraft.
I find the whole thing a real disappointment. I was looking forward to flying the 787 with AC. Looks like I'll have to do Continental or Northwest instead.
MarcoT From Italy, joined May 2005, 226 posts, RR: 0 Reply 12, posted (7 years 11 months 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 6330 times:
Quoting Boeing4ever (Reply 9):
What are you implying!? The whole bone the pilots had to pick wasn't with type rating issues. Sorry, but true airline logic does not base a 6 billion dollar deal on just one factor like type rating.
In the other thread, someone apparently quite knowledgeable about the situation stated that the deal don't went in exactly for type rating related issues. If I remember well it was specifically the request from the management to raise pilots monthly block hours for accomodating training on the new type (777) which was seen as hijacking another ulterior concession on top of what they have already granted.
Too short space for my favorite hopelessly long winded one liner
RJ111 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 13, posted (7 years 11 months 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 6329 times:
Quoting Boeing4ever (Reply 9): Sorry, but true airline logic does not base a 6 billion dollar deal on just one factor like type rating. The pilots objected that the 777 would be larger than the A340s, yet the pilots who flew them would be paid the same rate as the A340 pilots. To suggest the A346 would have avoided this is utter bullshit, for the A346 is even longer than the 773!
Actually, from what i gather, a high proportion if the pilots objected to working 90 hours up from 75 for a period of 3 years whilst they trained for the new Boeing aircraft.
KrisYYZ From Canada, joined Nov 2004, 1575 posts, RR: 0 Reply 14, posted (7 years 11 months 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 6304 times:
Quoting Bmacleod (Reply 10): The news report sated that "AC will look at the used aircraft market to find alternatives to replace its aging fleet of 767s".
What real current alternative is there to the 767?
AC would need around 40 aircraft to replace its entire B767 fleet, not taking growth into consideration. The plan was to upgrade the B767 with new interior and winglets and keep them flying until the B787's arrive in 2010.
I cannot think of where or what type of used planes AC could acquire. The only possibility would be A332's, but 40 of them? from where? I still think a A350 order is very unlikely.
Lets face it Milton wants the triple 7's, really bad! He and AC will not just give up on Boeing widebody order all together. If they could make there pilots happy (both AC core pilots and ex Canadian) we still could see AC B777/787s.
Boeing4ever From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 15, posted (7 years 11 months 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 6252 times:
Quoting RJ111 (Reply 13): Actually, from what i gather, a high proportion if the pilots objected to working 90 hours up from 75 for a period of 3 years whilst they trained for the new Boeing aircraft.
Quoting MarcoT (Reply 12): In the other thread, someone apparently quite knowledgeable about the situation stated that the deal don't went in exactly for type rating related issues. If I remember well it was specifically the request from the management to raise pilots monthly block hours for accomodating training on the new type (777) which was seen as hijacking another ulterior concession on top of what they have already granted.
Type rating is nevertheless hardly the only factor that should be looked at, unless you're the AC pilots Union evidently. The fact is, management didn't get all of its ducks in a row before making the order, and the pilots objected over pay issues. To add to it, all those 767 pilots will have to retrain to whatever new aircraft they can find to replace them anyway...unless AC now pulls an NWA and holds those 767s indefinately.
TinPusher007 From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 963 posts, RR: 2 Reply 16, posted (7 years 11 months 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 6215 times:
Quoting MarcoT (Reply 12): In the other thread, someone apparently quite knowledgeable about the situation stated that the deal don't went in exactly for type rating related issues. If I remember well it was specifically the request from the management to raise pilots monthly block hours for accomodating training on the new type (777) which was seen as hijacking another ulterior concession on top of what they have already granted.
Yes MarcoT...this was the point of contention that the union had with management...not just dollars and cents. In fact most stalled negotiations between pilots unions and management are rarely just about x amount of dollars per hour but more so about work rules. Of course the company never tells this side of it and prefers to just paint the pilots as greedy and over paid. I wish people on this forum would research the facts to avoid the same ignorance.
"Flying isn't inherently dangerous...but very unforgiving of carelessness, incapacity or neglect."
Bmacleod From Canada, joined Aug 2001, 2081 posts, RR: 0 Reply 17, posted (7 years 11 months 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 6043 times:
If AC goes for an all airbus fleet, I'm permanently jumping to Westjet for domestic and for US and international flights, I'll fly the airline of the country I'm headed to.
The engine is the heart of an airplane, but the pilot is its soul.
EnviroTO From Canada, joined Aug 2004, 820 posts, RR: 0 Reply 18, posted (7 years 11 months 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 5901 times:
Air Canada isn't going to bring in any new aircraft types until there is agreement on the pay scales to fly them. Air Canada has already decided that 777 and 787 are the right aircraft to buy new, so any other aircraft they add to their fleet before a 777 and 787 agreement can be reached, will be the same types as they already have and will be either leased or old. Perhaps a separate agreement will allow the 787 purchase to continue while the 777 is up in the air. We will just have to wait and see. I seriously doubt we will see an all Airbus fleet because the agreements from the pilots required to fly an A350 would be similar to the 787... actually worse since I think the A350 carries more pax. AC aircraft purchasing is in limbo now. Perhaps the "when will NW replace their DC9s" threads will transition to "when will AC replace their 767s" over the next ten years. If 762s without ER can be affordably converted to 762ERs then I would expect that to happen over the short term.
Sjoerd From Belgium, joined Aug 2003, 361 posts, RR: 0 Reply 19, posted (7 years 11 months 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 5772 times:
Quoting RJ111 (Reply 13): Actually, from what i gather, a high proportion if the pilots objected to working 90 hours up from 75 for a period of 3 years whilst they trained for the new Boeing aircraft.
I gather the same. Furthermore, the A346 has been (firmly) ordered before (along with their A345s), the order was approved by the pilots then wasn't it ? There must have been a deal with the pilots for both the A345 and A346 right ? These aircraft are basically the same. For all I know these 3 A346s are still on order, the exact number of aircraft AC wants to introduce next year instead of those B773ERs...
Sjoerd
Flanders + Wallonnia + Brussels = the UNITED STATES of BELGIUM
YUL332LX From Canada, joined Feb 2004, 820 posts, RR: 1 Reply 20, posted (7 years 11 months 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 5749 times:
Quoting Sjoerd (Reply 19): I gather the same. Furthermore, the A346 has been (firmly) ordered before (along with their A345s), the order was approved by the pilots then wasn't it ?
No it was not, sadly.
AC had to negotiate a last-minute agreement last year for the A345s.
E volavo, volavo felice più in alto del sole, e ancora più su mentre il mondo pian piano spariva lontano laggiù ...
KrisYYZ From Canada, joined Nov 2004, 1575 posts, RR: 0 Reply 21, posted (7 years 11 months 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 5703 times:
Quoting Sjoerd (Reply 19): For all I know these 3 A346s are still on order
AC's 3 firm orders for A346's where cancelled when the Boeing order was placed. AC does not want A346's in there fleet. The only reason AC eventually accepted the A345s was to open the YYZ-HKG route and the fact that the planes where already built and waiting in France.
Robsawatsky From Canada, joined Dec 2003, 597 posts, RR: 0 Reply 22, posted (7 years 11 months 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 5680 times:
Quoting Boeing4ever (Reply 9): Had management had the balls and the foresight to clear the damn order with the pilots in the first place, the whole mess would have been avoided.
So, then you have the pilots in the position to dictate the selection of aircraft type, tip the competition off to the choice of aircraft, and give all leverage to the union. Not a very logical move. The smart thing was making the order conditional on pilot agreement after the selection was made.
Glom From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2005, 2803 posts, RR: 10 Reply 24, posted (7 years 11 months 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 5664 times:
Quoting YYZ757FAN (Reply 1): is the 346 type rated the same as AC's current 345's??.
I stopped reading the thread at this point because I'm betting I already know how it will turn out. You will be flamed as an infidel for daring the imply that it isn't totally obvious that two Airbuses have commonality.
25 AF-A319: When AC placed its initial BA order a couple of month ago, BA was not in the position it is today: the dreamliner has now been confirmed as the hottes
26 KrisYYZ: There was an "order" placed with Boeing, which was cancelled Saturday. The $200M down payment for the $6B order was due later this week. The A346 ord
27 Boeing4ever: You missed my point. Management has no control already...that's my beef. On one hand management can't just steam roll the pilots, but on the other ha
28 Ikramerica: there was no order placed for B aircraft as it never appeared on their orders page.
29 TransatGuy: Boeing4ever.....you could not have said it better in your last post. Why oh why can we not all understand that Boeing IS the better a/c? Now, I not to
30 KrisYYZ: Alright, perhaps I should of said "agreement". I just assumed that an agreement for firm orders qualifies to be referred to as an order. I stand corr
31 Boeing4ever: Sarcasm aside, you didn't bother to read my post at all clearly. I didn't "bang" any Airbus aircraft...my criticism was against AC's horribly inept m
32 TransatGuy: Im not saying YOU banged them, and I wasent saying I banged them either. Im just stating my point thats what I feel. Airbus does make great a/c, but n
33 Udo: That's what I call sarcasm - well done! Regards Udo
34 Boeing4ever: Unfortunately for you, it appears he wasn't being sarcastic. B4e-Forever New Frontiers
35 Udo: Really? Then I have to laugh even louder and looooonger... Regards Udo
38 Mariner: Given that no one is breaking the sound barrier, your chances of being more comfortable are probably greater in a bigger plane. Hmmmm? cheers mariner
39 Scotland1979: A346s??? Hmmm... why not? I would like to see AC orders either A346s or/and A380s. Since Lufthansa no longer send A346s to YYZ, it would be nice to se
40 PM: I think, strictly speaking, that AC announced that they planned to cancel the A346 order as part of the Boeing deal. Hitherto, the three deliveries h
41 WAH64D: If you are a patriotic Canadian, you should fly your flag-carrier and support your national economy regardless of which a/c type they fly. Does your
43 WINGS: Man have you got some serious problems. Relax it would not be end of the world. Regards, Wings
44 MEA330: Any Airbus insiders know what is the status of the 3 A40-600's for Air Canada, it looks like they were built but never flew: MSN592/F-WWCU /340-642 /A
45 PM: That's the correct MSNs but, no, they were never built.
46 PennPal: Soooooo....flying a Canadian airline with French-made planes means you're a patriotic Canadian, and flying a Canadian airline with American-made plan
Sponsor Message: 
From Canada, joined Aug 2001, 2081 posts, 
From Austria, joined May 2005, 4604 posts, 
From , joined Dec 1969, posts, 
B4e-Forever New Frontiers 
From , joined Dec 1969, posts, 
B4e-Forever New Frontiers 
From Italy, joined May 2005, 226 posts, 
From Belgium, joined Aug 2003, 361 posts, 
Printer friendly format 
