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Will AC Now Take Delivery Of 346s?  
User currently offlineBmacleod From Canada, joined Aug 2001, 2277 posts, RR: 0
Posted (9 years 3 months 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 8728 times:

With the Boeing order now cancelled, is AC still planning to accept the 346s or were they cancelled too?

I'm still betting AC will order the 787 as the 350 is too big to be a 787 replacement. We will definitely see a 787 in AC colors!!!!!


The engine is the heart of an airplane, but the pilot is its soul.
46 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineYYZ757FAN From Canada, joined Feb 2005, 93 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (9 years 3 months 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 8652 times:

If Air Canada picks up the 346s would it have the same issues with its Pilots that caused the 777 cancellation or is the 346 type rated the same as AC's current 345's??. Correct me if I am wrong but was there not a problem with the Pilots union when AC first brought the 345 on line?
It seems that Air Canada's management wants to move to a Boeing widebody fleet, I am hoping that the recent cancellation is just a short delay, saner heads prevail and the 777/787 order is picked up again.


User currently offlineKrisYYZ From Canada, joined Nov 2004, 1593 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (9 years 3 months 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 8619 times:

I don't think so, even though AC is in great need for higher capacity on many of its international routes. Those Firm aircraft orders where cancelled back in April when the Boeing order was placed.

Milton clearly stated that AC does not want 4 engine aircraft and the key to profitability is twin engine, highly efficient aircraft. Although the A345/346 is a great aircraft, it is not a twin or fuel efficient when compared to B773ER/772LR.

So AC will either delay any order of a new type of aircraft, try to find more A345/343/333 or B767 or there is an possibility of some B772ER or other twins.

I think AC shouldn't of made this order without having a its pilots support in the first place. I know only 1/3 of pilots voted, and some of them are going to be very disappointed, I'm sure some of them really wanted to fly the B777's.

Krisyyz


User currently offlineBmacleod From Canada, joined Aug 2001, 2277 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (9 years 3 months 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 8573 times:

Has AC cancelled any big orders before?


The engine is the heart of an airplane, but the pilot is its soul.
User currently offlineKrisYYZ From Canada, joined Nov 2004, 1593 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (9 years 3 months 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 8556 times:

Quoting YYZ757FAN (Reply 1):
Correct me if I am wrong but was there not a problem with the Pilots union when AC first brought the 345 on line?

That's what I thought, but the pilots agreed to fly them at the same pay as the A343's because there is only a slight difference between the A343 and A345.

Like you said the A346 is a different question.

Krisyyz


User currently offlineFlyAUA From Austria, joined May 2005, 4604 posts, RR: 55
Reply 5, posted (9 years 3 months 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 8517 times:

As much as I'd like them to go back to an almost all-airbus fleet, I think the manufacturer didn't play a role in this conflict. Acoording to my understanding of the dispute the order was not cancelled because the aircraft were Boeing (if we believe what the media reports). And besides, Air Canada has stated they want to go all-boeing. So I doubt this will happen for the 2 reasons stated above.


Not drinking, also isn't a solution!
User currently offlineBoeing4ever From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 6, posted (9 years 3 months 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 8430 times:

I believe AC cancelled the A346 orders in anticipation of the 787/777 orders going through. As it stands, they have no pending widebody orders save for any remaining 330s and 343s not yet delivered (anyone wanna indicate yes/no to that?)

 airplane B4e-Forever New Frontiers airplane 


User currently offlineKrisYYZ From Canada, joined Nov 2004, 1593 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (9 years 3 months 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 8395 times:

Quoting Boeing4ever (Reply 6):
I believe AC cancelled the A346 orders in anticipation of the 787/777 orders going through. As it stands, they have no pending widebody orders save for any remaining 330s and 343s not yet delivered (anyone wanna indicate yes/no to that?)

Thats right, AC's last widebody order was for the 2 A345 and 3 A346 back in the late 90's. Since then AC has only acquired leased aircraft, in the last few months 3 B763er's and 1 A343 has joined the fleet.

Krisyyz


User currently offlineRJ111 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 8, posted (9 years 3 months 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 8338 times:

Quoting YYZ757FAN (Reply 1):
is the 346 type rated the same as AC's current 345's??.

All 4 A340's have the same type rating. So no, transition wouldn't be an issue if AC had done the logical thing.  Yeah sure


User currently offlineBoeing4ever From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 9, posted (9 years 3 months 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 8224 times:

Quoting RJ111 (Reply 8):
All 4 A340's have the same type rating. So no, transition wouldn't be an issue if AC had done the logical thing.

What are you implying!? The whole bone the pilots had to pick wasn't with type rating issues. Sorry, but true airline logic does not base a 6 billion dollar deal on just one factor like type rating. The pilots objected that the 777 would be larger than the A340s, yet the pilots who flew them would be paid the same rate as the A340 pilots. To suggest the A346 would have avoided this is utter bullshit, for the A346 is even longer than the 773!

Had management had the balls and the foresight to clear the damn order with the pilots in the first place, the whole mess would have been avoided.

  B4e-Forever New Frontiers  

[Edited 2005-06-20 16:43:02]

User currently offlineBmacleod From Canada, joined Aug 2001, 2277 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (9 years 3 months 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 8212 times:

The news report sated that "AC will look at the used aircraft market to find alternatives to replace its aging fleet of 767s".  Confused

What real current alternative is there to the 767?

AC needs to clarify its statements in the future....



The engine is the heart of an airplane, but the pilot is its soul.
User currently offlineStarrion From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 1126 posts, RR: 2
Reply 11, posted (9 years 3 months 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 8193 times:

I don't believe the question was could the pilots transition from one aircraft type to another, but rather are they willing to transition to the 346 for the same amount of pay? If the pilots had agreed to it, presumably AC would take the new aircraft.

I find the whole thing a real disappointment. I was looking forward to flying the 787 with AC. Looks like I'll have to do Continental or Northwest instead.



Knowledge Replaces Fear
User currently offlineMarcoT From Italy, joined May 2005, 253 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (9 years 3 months 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 8124 times:

Quoting Boeing4ever (Reply 9):

What are you implying!? The whole bone the pilots had to pick wasn't with type rating issues. Sorry, but true airline logic does not base a 6 billion dollar deal on just one factor like type rating.

In the other thread, someone apparently quite knowledgeable about the situation stated that the deal don't went in exactly for type rating related issues. If I remember well it was specifically the request from the management to raise pilots monthly block hours for accomodating training on the new type (777) which was seen as hijacking another ulterior concession on top of what they have already granted.



Too short space for my favorite hopelessly long winded one liner
User currently offlineRJ111 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 13, posted (9 years 3 months 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 8123 times:

Quoting Boeing4ever (Reply 9):
Sorry, but true airline logic does not base a 6 billion dollar deal on just one factor like type rating. The pilots objected that the 777 would be larger than the A340s, yet the pilots who flew them would be paid the same rate as the A340 pilots. To suggest the A346 would have avoided this is utter bullshit, for the A346 is even longer than the 773!

Actually, from what i gather, a high proportion if the pilots objected to working 90 hours up from 75 for a period of 3 years whilst they trained for the new Boeing aircraft.


User currently offlineKrisYYZ From Canada, joined Nov 2004, 1593 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (9 years 3 months 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 8098 times:

Quoting Bmacleod (Reply 10):
The news report sated that "AC will look at the used aircraft market to find alternatives to replace its aging fleet of 767s".

What real current alternative is there to the 767?

AC would need around 40 aircraft to replace its entire B767 fleet, not taking growth into consideration. The plan was to upgrade the B767 with new interior and winglets and keep them flying until the B787's arrive in 2010.

I cannot think of where or what type of used planes AC could acquire. The only possibility would be A332's, but 40 of them? from where? I still think a A350 order is very unlikely.

Lets face it Milton wants the triple 7's, really bad! He and AC will not just give up on Boeing widebody order all together. If they could make there pilots happy (both AC core pilots and ex Canadian) we still could see AC B777/787s.

Krisyyz

[Edited 2005-06-20 17:07:49]

User currently offlineBoeing4ever From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 15, posted (9 years 3 months 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 8046 times:

Quoting RJ111 (Reply 13):
Actually, from what i gather, a high proportion if the pilots objected to working 90 hours up from 75 for a period of 3 years whilst they trained for the new Boeing aircraft.



Quoting MarcoT (Reply 12):
In the other thread, someone apparently quite knowledgeable about the situation stated that the deal don't went in exactly for type rating related issues. If I remember well it was specifically the request from the management to raise pilots monthly block hours for accomodating training on the new type (777) which was seen as hijacking another ulterior concession on top of what they have already granted.

Type rating is nevertheless hardly the only factor that should be looked at, unless you're the AC pilots Union evidently. The fact is, management didn't get all of its ducks in a row before making the order, and the pilots objected over pay issues. To add to it, all those 767 pilots will have to retrain to whatever new aircraft they can find to replace them anyway...unless AC now pulls an NWA and holds those 767s indefinately.

 airplane B4e-Forever New Frontiers airplane 


User currently offlineTinPusher007 From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 977 posts, RR: 1
Reply 16, posted (9 years 3 months 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 8009 times:

Quoting MarcoT (Reply 12):
In the other thread, someone apparently quite knowledgeable about the situation stated that the deal don't went in exactly for type rating related issues. If I remember well it was specifically the request from the management to raise pilots monthly block hours for accomodating training on the new type (777) which was seen as hijacking another ulterior concession on top of what they have already granted.

Yes MarcoT...this was the point of contention that the union had with management...not just dollars and cents. In fact most stalled negotiations between pilots unions and management are rarely just about x amount of dollars per hour but more so about work rules. Of course the company never tells this side of it and prefers to just paint the pilots as greedy and over paid. I wish people on this forum would research the facts to avoid the same ignorance.



"Flying isn't inherently dangerous...but very unforgiving of carelessness, incapacity or neglect."
User currently offlineBmacleod From Canada, joined Aug 2001, 2277 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (9 years 3 months 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 7837 times:

If AC goes for an all airbus fleet, I'm permanently jumping to Westjet for domestic and for US and international flights, I'll fly the airline of the country I'm headed to.  mad 


The engine is the heart of an airplane, but the pilot is its soul.
User currently offlineEnviroTO From Canada, joined Aug 2004, 825 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (9 years 3 months 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 7695 times:

Air Canada isn't going to bring in any new aircraft types until there is agreement on the pay scales to fly them. Air Canada has already decided that 777 and 787 are the right aircraft to buy new, so any other aircraft they add to their fleet before a 777 and 787 agreement can be reached, will be the same types as they already have and will be either leased or old. Perhaps a separate agreement will allow the 787 purchase to continue while the 777 is up in the air. We will just have to wait and see. I seriously doubt we will see an all Airbus fleet because the agreements from the pilots required to fly an A350 would be similar to the 787... actually worse since I think the A350 carries more pax. AC aircraft purchasing is in limbo now. Perhaps the "when will NW replace their DC9s" threads will transition to "when will AC replace their 767s" over the next ten years. If 762s without ER can be affordably converted to 762ERs then I would expect that to happen over the short term.

User currently offlineSjoerd From Belgium, joined Aug 2003, 361 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (9 years 3 months 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 7566 times:

Quoting RJ111 (Reply 13):
Actually, from what i gather, a high proportion if the pilots objected to working 90 hours up from 75 for a period of 3 years whilst they trained for the new Boeing aircraft.

I gather the same. Furthermore, the A346 has been (firmly) ordered before (along with their A345s), the order was approved by the pilots then wasn't it ? There must have been a deal with the pilots for both the A345 and A346 right ? These aircraft are basically the same. For all I know these 3 A346s are still on order, the exact number of aircraft AC wants to introduce next year instead of those B773ERs...

Sjoerd



Flanders + Wallonnia + Brussels = the UNITED STATES of BELGIUM
User currently offlineYUL332LX From Canada, joined Feb 2004, 820 posts, RR: 1
Reply 20, posted (9 years 3 months 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 7543 times:

Quoting Sjoerd (Reply 19):
I gather the same. Furthermore, the A346 has been (firmly) ordered before (along with their A345s), the order was approved by the pilots then wasn't it ?

No it was not, sadly.

AC had to negotiate a last-minute agreement last year for the A345s.



E volavo, volavo felice più in alto del sole, e ancora più su mentre il mondo pian piano spariva lontano laggiù ...
User currently offlineKrisYYZ From Canada, joined Nov 2004, 1593 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (9 years 3 months 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 7497 times:

Quoting Sjoerd (Reply 19):
For all I know these 3 A346s are still on order

AC's 3 firm orders for A346's where cancelled when the Boeing order was placed. AC does not want A346's in there fleet. The only reason AC eventually accepted the A345s was to open the YYZ-HKG route and the fact that the planes where already built and waiting in France.

Krisyyz


User currently offlineRobsawatsky From Canada, joined Dec 2003, 597 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (9 years 3 months 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 7474 times:

Quoting Boeing4ever (Reply 9):
Had management had the balls and the foresight to clear the damn order with the pilots in the first place, the whole mess would have been avoided.

So, then you have the pilots in the position to dictate the selection of aircraft type, tip the competition off to the choice of aircraft, and give all leverage to the union. Not a very logical move. The smart thing was making the order conditional on pilot agreement after the selection was made.


User currently offlineSjoerd From Belgium, joined Aug 2003, 361 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (9 years 3 months 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 7463 times:

Quoting KrisYYZ (Reply 21):
AC's 3 firm orders for A346's where cancelled when the Boeing order was placed

There was no order placed with Boeing and there won't be.

Sjoerd



Flanders + Wallonnia + Brussels = the UNITED STATES of BELGIUM
User currently offlineGlom From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2005, 2818 posts, RR: 10
Reply 24, posted (9 years 3 months 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 7458 times:

Quoting YYZ757FAN (Reply 1):
is the 346 type rated the same as AC's current 345's??.

I stopped reading the thread at this point because I'm betting I already know how it will turn out. You will be flamed as an infidel for daring the imply that it isn't totally obvious that two Airbuses have commonality.


25 AF-A319 : When AC placed its initial BA order a couple of month ago, BA was not in the position it is today: the dreamliner has now been confirmed as the hottes
26 KrisYYZ : There was an "order" placed with Boeing, which was cancelled Saturday. The $200M down payment for the $6B order was due later this week. The A346 ord
27 Post contains images Boeing4ever : You missed my point. Management has no control already...that's my beef. On one hand management can't just steam roll the pilots, but on the other ha
28 Ikramerica : there was no order placed for B aircraft as it never appeared on their orders page.
29 TransatGuy : Boeing4ever.....you could not have said it better in your last post. Why oh why can we not all understand that Boeing IS the better a/c? Now, I not to
30 Post contains links KrisYYZ : Alright, perhaps I should of said "agreement". I just assumed that an agreement for firm orders qualifies to be referred to as an order. I stand corr
31 Post contains images Boeing4ever : Sarcasm aside, you didn't bother to read my post at all clearly. I didn't "bang" any Airbus aircraft...my criticism was against AC's horribly inept m
32 TransatGuy : Im not saying YOU banged them, and I wasent saying I banged them either. Im just stating my point thats what I feel. Airbus does make great a/c, but n
33 Post contains images Udo : That's what I call sarcasm - well done! Regards Udo
34 Post contains images Boeing4ever : Unfortunately for you, it appears he wasn't being sarcastic. B4e-Forever New Frontiers
35 Post contains images Udo : Really? Then I have to laugh even louder and looooonger... Regards Udo
36 TransatGuy : I take it your an Airbus man Udo?
37 Post contains images Udo : Regards Udo
38 Post contains images Mariner : Given that no one is breaking the sound barrier, your chances of being more comfortable are probably greater in a bigger plane. Hmmmm? cheers mariner
39 Scotland1979 : A346s??? Hmmm... why not? I would like to see AC orders either A346s or/and A380s. Since Lufthansa no longer send A346s to YYZ, it would be nice to se
40 Post contains images PM : I think, strictly speaking, that AC announced that they planned to cancel the A346 order as part of the Boeing deal. Hitherto, the three deliveries h
41 WAH64D : If you are a patriotic Canadian, you should fly your flag-carrier and support your national economy regardless of which a/c type they fly. Does your
42 Post contains images FlyAUA : And you still need to ask???
43 Post contains images WINGS : Man have you got some serious problems. Relax it would not be end of the world. Regards, Wings
44 MEA330 : Any Airbus insiders know what is the status of the 3 A40-600's for Air Canada, it looks like they were built but never flew: MSN592/F-WWCU /340-642 /A
45 PM : That's the correct MSNs but, no, they were never built.
46 Post contains images PennPal : Soooooo....flying a Canadian airline with French-made planes means you're a patriotic Canadian, and flying a Canadian airline with American-made plan
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