UALPHLCS From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Posted (10 years 7 months 4 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 5405 times:
As you are all well aware the IAM has a new tentative agreement with UA for the Ramp and CS employees. They are very proud of it. They ought to be, becasue they have cleverly manipulated the members into thinking that they are doing something FOR them all the while doing something TO them.
UA was offering the IAM membership a pension replacement that was a 401k with 4% matching funds from UA. OK that's fine everyone knows what a 401k is and matching is done by just about every company out there.
NO NO, say the IAM. Our members don't want your money to manage themselves they want a pension. So give that UNION that money, and we will have the members in a IAM Pension.
Think I'm wrong? This is from the IAM website iam141.org : " This agreement also introduces a new defined benefit pension plan for IAM members, which cannot be unilaterally terminated by United Airlines." Key words are NEW DEFINED PENSION BENEFIT PLAN. The reason Pensions are in so much trouble is becasue they don't work. They are defined benefit plans, Defined CONTRIBUTION plans are cheaper, more flexible and SOLELY OWNED BY THE EMPLOYEE.
The IAM has screwed us out of money that UA was OFFERING US. Randy Canale is stealing our money. VOTE NO to this travesty of a contract. VOTE NO to a strike too. Its no UA fault the UNION did this to us. When the Judge dissolves our contract we are then free to get a new UNION.
Laxintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 28483 posts, RR: 50
Reply 1, posted (10 years 7 months 4 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 5361 times:
The IAM managed to pull the same at US Airways. They are also now contributing to the national IAM plan.
UA does have some protection in this deal as they are only required to pay a certain amount per employee, so to the company the payout would basically have been similar under a 401k program. Like you mentioned one of the key differences is now employees would loose flexibility that the 401k program would have afforded them in making investment decisions for themselves.
The only good thing I could say about the plan, is that being a national plan it bridges many employers. Thus the failure of any single company would likely not parse wipe out the plan and force the PBGC to take over.
This again is another example of the union believing it knows what is best for you.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
UALPHLCS From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 3, posted (10 years 7 months 4 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 5308 times:
Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 2): Quoting UALPHLCS (Thread starter):
The IAM has screwed us out of money that UA was OFFERING US
Should I feign surprise?
No you shouldn't. However, I for one am fed up with this bunch of self serving morons.
Quoting Laxintl (Reply 1): The only good thing I could say about the plan, is that being a national plan it bridges many employers. Thus the failure of any single company would likely not parse wipe out the plan and force the PBGC to take over.
That is one hell of a stretch to find a si9lver lining. Facts are that the IAM can't run a defined benefit Pension any better than UA, US, Ford, GM Bethlehem Steel or any of the thousands of Pensions that have been taken over by the PBGC. Pensions just don't work they are a Ponsy sceme.
UA was offering me and my fellow workers a 4% raise. Granted that money couldn't be touched until retirement, but that money would have been OURS. Not the IAMs. THE IAM TURNED AWAY A 4% RAISE TO ITS MEMBERSHIP. So it could enrich itself and bailout its own Pension fund. Sorry US, but if my vote will keep my money from bailing out your Pension, then I'm voting NO to this contract.
UA CS and Ramp guys come on... if anything could make you mad this should. You're being robbed and the robber is telling you its for your own good.
AirframeAS From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 14150 posts, RR: 23
Reply 4, posted (10 years 7 months 4 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 5286 times:
This is one of the reasons why Im not even a fan of the IAM. When I was at AS as a CSA, the IAM screwed me over and never protected me when I needed them most... Those IAM people are stupid, Im telling ya!
IMO, AMFA is much better union than the IAM.... Im not going to go on explaining why....
A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
Slider From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 7210 posts, RR: 33
Reply 9, posted (10 years 7 months 3 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 5049 times:
P.T. Barnum would be proud!
Seriously, this is exactly why the CO F/A's voted down their deal--because it turned over their pension to the IAM. They voted no more to their union than they did to CO in terms of a concessionary contract.
The IAM is mis-managed and does it's members a horrible disservice. But hey, ole Randy can still fly around on the corporate jet compliments of your dues money, so what's not to love?
Srbmod From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 11, posted (10 years 7 months 3 weeks 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 4928 times:
I bet the guys at AirTran are saying "I sure am glad we didn't vote them guys in here." The IAM has tried and failed on several occassions in the last 6+ years to unionize the rampers and gate agents @ FL, and have failed every time. Perhaps after seeing the way they've caused their members at some airlines to get screwed over, perhaps they'll think twice before trying to get them to represent them.
UALPHLCS From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 12, posted (10 years 7 months 3 weeks 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 4813 times:
Quoting Ordpark (Reply 5): But, frankly, if the IAM wants this to pass, I'm pretty sure that this will pass! And I bet your union dues go up soon also.
We are the memebers. We have until July 22 to get IAM members to vote this contract down.
On the whole I like this contract. It is crappy but it minimizes the finacial pain, all except this Pension fund provision which has me outraged.
I call on every free thinking IAM covered UA employee to urge your co-workers to vote NO.
Midway2AirTran From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 864 posts, RR: 1
Reply 13, posted (10 years 7 months 3 weeks 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 4768 times:
UALPHLCS does have a good point. The IAM could under-fund and hide it just as UAL did over the years. If I were in that position, I would rather take the extra cash with tax deducted before letting someone else handle it all for me, especially all the failures going on. Good luck to both sides in finding a win-win contract!
Avpilot01 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 14, posted (10 years 7 months 3 weeks 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 4757 times:
Which brings me to the current question.....Why do the UA and US unions keep conceeding???? Why don't they fight back and say no to the self serving union heads??? I am scratching my head in disbeleif at these employees decision to accept whatever the IAM brings their way. The TWU is trying to get the CO employees to join in on the fun.... Those guys can take it and shove it up their bums....unions used to be able to do something for you, but now all the airlines are losing money, and unions are making a crap of a difference, in fact they are losing jobs for everyone....i.e.Alaska rampers in SEA. Good luck to all of you!
UALPHLCS From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 15, posted (10 years 7 months 3 weeks 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 4746 times:
Quoting Avpilot01 (Reply 14): Why don't they fight back and say no to the self serving union heads??? I am scratching my head in disbeleif at these employees decision to accept whatever the IAM brings their way.
Because they are fed propaganda from the union that the Union is looking out for them. UA's contract proposal was printed for the memebership to see under the title "United's Demands."
When I went in today to argue about the Defined benefit vs defined contribution plans several employees told me UA didn't offer a 401k with matching. That the Union rep told them so. I pulled down the Union printed sheet and showed them in writing were UA did offer it, and I was told "Those were United demands we don't want any of those." I was speachless.
Ohters are afraid that they can't afford to save in a 401K, but they just don't understand that they will take home more money becasue they arre taxed on a lower gross.
Between the complexity of the issue and the Unions propaganda we have a long fight ahead. But we have until July 22 and alot of people are angered by the pay cuts and lose of holidays and vacation time and the like so adding those NO votes will help the cause.
Jc5280 From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 530 posts, RR: 4
Reply 17, posted (10 years 7 months 3 weeks 6 days ago) and read 4717 times:
Quoting Bicoastal (Reply 16): But they also believe the corrupt IAM will rig the results.
Like the 92% "stike vote" that supposedly occurred? I believe people voted, but everyone I know wonders who those 92% of the members are....certainly not in DEN or SFO, and thats way more than 8% of the members. Its all rigged. What would you do if you were in the IAM's position? What leg would you have to stand on if you did not show an overwhelming member vote for a strike? Do you think UA would listen if the IAM came at them with a 54% strike vote? Think about it folks...
Bicoastal From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 19, posted (10 years 7 months 3 weeks 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 4639 times:
With the IAM pension, members will be stuck with IAM representation. There will be no way to vote them out and bring in a new union or go non-union. This deal is good only for the IAM leadership who want to make sure no one leaves the union and the dues continue to flow in.
RampRat74 From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 1621 posts, RR: 2
Reply 20, posted (10 years 7 months 3 weeks 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 4570 times:
Quoting Bicoastal (Reply 16): My neighbor ramper at United Dulles says his colleagues are unhappy with the agreement. He says they're voting NO. But they also believe the corrupt IAM will rig the results.
I just love hearing what your "United Ramper" neighbor has to say. Maybe he and his colleagues should go get those jobs they had lined up when they were going to strike two months ago. We have around 90 rampers here in PDX. There are only about four guys that said they would vote NO on this contract. This is the same four schmucks that has been spouting their pie holes off for the last two years. The only thing we are upset about is the vacation time lost. It could of been a lot worst.
UALPHLCS From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 21, posted (10 years 7 months 3 weeks 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 4477 times:
Quoting RampRat74 (Reply 20): The only thing we are upset about is the vacation time lost. It could of been a lot worst.
Listen, I'm not a guy who is very militant when it comes to the Union contracts and stiking. But the vacation time lost is the least of the problems with this travesty of a contract. And I agree with you that it could have been worse.
However, nothing is as bad as this IAM Pension. If we vote yes to this Pension deal we are actually settling for something worse than what the Company offered. We will look like a bunch of sheep being let around by the Union and beleiving everything they say rather than the intelligent people Ramp and CS are.
I have faith that enough Ramp and CS people are free thinkers who can read this contract and see what a sh!tty deal this Pension is. More and more people in PHL including the commitee person are really upset over this contract. I can only hope its the case in more stations. We need to pass the word to all that will listen.
320tech From Turks and Caicos Islands, joined May 2004, 491 posts, RR: 5
Reply 24, posted (10 years 7 months 3 weeks 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 4378 times:
Perhaps you'd be interested in the experience Air Canada employees (AME's and baggage handlers) had with IAM.
They are also represented by IAM, and the contract was renegotiated when AC went into bankruptcy protection in 2003. IAM negotiated away shift premiums, a week of vacation, got us to work an extra two and a half hours per week, some small bonus payments, and also took a small pay cut. They were awfully happy about that - only a 1% (or whatever - I can't remember anymore) pay cut. Well, by my calculation, the 1% actually worked out to about 16%.
Why would they do that? Because union dues are calculated on basic pay - the money you earn before shift premiums, longevity pay, and a couple of other things IAM gave away. So whose interests were they representing? Their own, of course.
To make sure the deal went through, IAM provided only the barest details. They didn't provide a copy of the contract before the vote. In case things went bad for them, what did they provide to mark ballots with? You bet, pencils.
IAM knows their own interests, and doesn't much care about their supposed members. No amount of union propaganda will convince me otherwise.
The primary function of the design engineer is to make things difficult for the manufacturer and impossible for the AME.
: We can't trust the IAM either. The local commitee lies to our faces every chance they get. I can't believe how many local polices PDX has. It seems m
: I've been spinning my wheels for the past three years at just above that pay level. Frankly, if you vote in favor of this agreement you have lost in
: Certainly not backing them, but what leverage do they have? What choices are left in this hellhole of a time in our industry? (I'm not being sarcasti
: You know what the irony of all this is? If UA had rejected the agreement and the IAM went on strike over the pension issue, wouldn't most of the membe
: Actually, I'm trying to get members to vote NO to the contract and to strike. It was the IAMs fault that this contract is a mess not the company. If
: UALPHLCS....You're on my respected users list for many good reasons. You mention voting out the IAM. Once they get their hands on United employee's re
: And you won't have a company to work for in that case anyhow, so is this "scorched earth" theory really feasible?
: BiCoastal that's just the point isn't it. The IAM has insidiously made thier deal the only one that members think is good for them meanwhile it cemen
: I have a few questions for all you IAM-haters and those opposed to this contract: 1.) What have you PERSONALLY done to get involved with the leadershi
: Steven I know you mean well and most times we agree about the best direction for UA. But this time I gotta say your way off base. My main beef with th
: Between where the company is at right now vs. the union, I would trust the IAM pension plan any day of the week and twice on Sunday. I'm not especial
: This may make the IAM doubters a bit more upset.... In college I was good friends with one of the IAM management's sons - they used to use the IAM com
: Steven this displays a total lack of understanding between what a Pension IS and what a 401k IS and additionally what the Comapny proposed and what t
: It is amazing to me (as a former IAM member as well) that this union has the nerve to put this kind of offer on the table. Look, we all know that the