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Cabotage: Where In The World Is It Allowed?  
User currently offlineLuisde8cd From Pitcairn Islands, joined Aug 2004, 2567 posts, RR: 31
Posted (9 years 3 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 15204 times:

Hey all,

I was wondering if there is a country that allows a foreign airline to operate domestic flights inside it... anyone knows?

Thanks,
Luis

56 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineKL911 From Ireland, joined Jul 2003, 5113 posts, RR: 12
Reply 1, posted (9 years 3 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 15195 times:

In all european union countries it's allowed for carriers from other member states. example Ryanair, easyjet etc etc. KLM can fly CDG-MRS if they want.

KL911



Next trip : DUB-AUH-CGK-DPS-KUL-AUH-CDG-ORK :-)
User currently offlineJamman From United Kingdom, joined May 2007, 142 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (9 years 3 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 15189 times:

Here's another in the UK/EU.
VLM (Belgum based) operates Liverpool to London City.

[Edited 2005-06-21 13:44:09]


Phoning it in from a place with no phones.
User currently offlineMonteycarlos From Australia, joined Mar 2005, 2107 posts, RR: 29
Reply 3, posted (9 years 3 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 15174 times:

Australia and New Zealand have an open skies agreement whereby any of the airlines within each country can run domestically in the other... I think thats the case or it might be airline specific but there is certainly QF operating domestically in New Zealand as a result of this...


It's a beautiful night to fly like a phoenix...
User currently offlineFlyAUA From Austria, joined May 2005, 4604 posts, RR: 56
Reply 4, posted (9 years 3 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 15143 times:

Yes cabotage exists in many places... If I remember correctly from university it was the 7th or 8th "freedom of the air". Here are some examples:

-Easyjet from Paris CDG <-> Nice
-Ryanair from Rome <-> Venice
-AirBerlin from Madrid <-> Mallorca



Not drinking, also isn't a solution!
User currently offlineDLPMMM From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 3588 posts, RR: 10
Reply 5, posted (9 years 3 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 15113 times:

I would not call intra EU flights by EU carriers cabotage. The EU is a single market now when it comes to air traffic.

User currently offlineLuisde8cd From Pitcairn Islands, joined Aug 2004, 2567 posts, RR: 31
Reply 6, posted (9 years 3 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 15089 times:

Quoting DLPMMM (Reply 5):
I would not call intra EU flights by EU carriers cabotage. The EU is a single market now when it comes to air traffic.

Exactly I forgot to say in the thread starter that the EU doesn't count  Smile


User currently offlineGeoffm From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2004, 2111 posts, RR: 6
Reply 7, posted (9 years 3 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 15067 times:

Quoting DLPMMM (Reply 5):
I would not call intra EU flights by EU carriers cabotage. The EU is a single market now when it comes to air traffic.

According to your very own DOT, cabotage is defined thus:
" Airline cabotage is the carriage of air traffic that originates and terminates within the boundaries of a given country by an air carrier of another country"

The EU consists of numerous countries, thus cabotage is correct.

Geoff M.


User currently offlineZRH From Switzerland, joined Nov 1999, 5566 posts, RR: 36
Reply 8, posted (9 years 3 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 15025 times:

Quoting Luisde8cd (Reply 6):
Exactly I forgot to say in the thread starter that the EU doesn't count

Why does the EU not count. These are still independent countries. The US for example does not regard the EU as a single market. They still have agreements with each country. If you wanted an other example for cabotage then you could take the EU countries and Switzerland, there the cabotage is allowed.


User currently offlineFlyAUA From Austria, joined May 2005, 4604 posts, RR: 56
Reply 9, posted (9 years 3 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 15015 times:

Quoting DLPMMM (Reply 5):
I would not call intra EU flights by EU carriers cabotage. The EU is a single market now when it comes to air traffic.

It is since Europe is not a COUNTRY, but a UNION. Otherwise these airlines would not have had to get permission for operation flights on a cabotage-basis.



Not drinking, also isn't a solution!
User currently offlineAhlfors From Canada, joined Oct 2000, 1341 posts, RR: 5
Reply 10, posted (9 years 3 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 15006 times:

There are flights operated between Trinidad and Tobago (same country) by LIAT and Caribbean Star, both based overseas.

Pan Am used to fly intra-German flights until they went under.

I believe the HNL-GUM CO Islandhopper has at least two stops in the Federated States of Micronesia, which should qualify as cabotage as Micronesia is independent enough to be a UN member.

And if you really want to get legalistic, I suppose HKG-TPE by a foreign carrier would sort-of qualify as cabotage.

And then there's of course DUB-SNN, with full cabotage rights for US airlines.

[Edited 2005-06-21 14:37:58]

User currently offlineLuisde8cd From Pitcairn Islands, joined Aug 2004, 2567 posts, RR: 31
Reply 11, posted (9 years 3 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 14981 times:

Quoting ZRH (Reply 8):
Why does the EU not count. These are still independent countries. The US for example does not regard the EU as a single market. They still have agreements with each country. If you wanted an other example for cabotage then you could take the EU countries and Switzerland, there the cabotage is allowed.

I know, what I meant was that I already knew that in the EU there's cabotage. Just wanted to know other parts of the world aside from the EU where cabotage takes place


User currently onlineBigGSFO From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 2910 posts, RR: 6
Reply 12, posted (9 years 3 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 14934 times:

If you want to get technical, AA Eagle's SJU-MAZ and STT-STX qualify. Puerto Rico and the USVI are separate countries, not US states...

User currently offlinePanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 9097 posts, RR: 29
Reply 13, posted (9 years 3 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 14965 times:

Quoting Ahlfors (Reply 10):
There are flights operated between Trinidad and Tobago (same country) by LIAT and Caribbean Star, both based overseas.

Pan Am used to fly intra-German flights until they went under.

And then there's of course DUB-SNN, with full cabotage rights for US airlines.

[Edited 2005-06-21 14:37:58]

DUB-SNN applies, OK, but the PanAm, BEA and AF operations in Germany do not qualify as cabotage since the three countries were the sovereign powers in Berlin up until 1990 and traffic rights to and from this city could only be granted with their approval. Besides overflying rights in East Germany. Before LH started in Germany and some years thereafter, KL, SK, SR, SN enjoyed domestic services in Germany.

The question put here is a very good one and especially after the EU common market very difficult to answer, Pre-common market I remember that GVA/ZRH was an "open" route,operated by several airlines like TP, AT and others. AY has a flight STO-OSL which was then cabotage because of the SAS three country treaty.

Not really cabotage, but something close, was the right to carry passengers between (for isntance) OSA-TYO, provided the passengers had tickets beyond TYO to FRA or wherever and stayed just for a stop-over.



E's passed on! That parrot is no more! He has ceased to be! E's expired and gone to meet 'is maker!
User currently offlineDLPMMM From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 3588 posts, RR: 10
Reply 14, posted (9 years 3 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 14882 times:

Quoting ZRH (Reply 8):
Why does the EU not count. These are still independent countries. The US for example does not regard the EU as a single market. They still have agreements with each country. If you wanted an other example for cabotage then you could take the EU countries and Switzerland, there the cabotage is allowed.

The EU does not count since the EU courts promulgated that the individual member bilateral are null and void and the US must negotiate a new comprehensive bi-lateral with the EU. These negotiations have been ongoing for an extended period due to the refusal of the UK to forego the terms of Bermuda II, the insistance of the EU negotiators on cabotage within the US for EU airlines, and the removal of foreign ownership restrictions for US airlines.


User currently offlineJgold47 From Djibouti, joined Mar 2005, 95 posts, RR: 1
Reply 15, posted (9 years 3 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 14867 times:

Mabyee I missed this, but dosent northwest fly intra asian?

User currently offlineDLPMMM From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 3588 posts, RR: 10
Reply 16, posted (9 years 3 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 14858 times:

Quoting Jgold47 (Reply 15):
Mabyee I missed this, but dosent northwest fly intra asian?

Yes, but not intra Japan. These are 5th freedom rights to fly from their NRT hub to other asian countries.


User currently offlineMonteycarlos From Australia, joined Mar 2005, 2107 posts, RR: 29
Reply 17, posted (9 years 3 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 14833 times:

Does SQ have the rights to operate domestically in Australia?

I heard they did but haven't seen the evidence....



It's a beautiful night to fly like a phoenix...
User currently offlinePanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 9097 posts, RR: 29
Reply 18, posted (9 years 3 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 14813 times:

Quoting DLPMMM (Reply 14):
Quoting ZRH (Reply 8):
Why does the EU not count. These are still independent countries. The US for example does not regard the EU as a single market. They still have agreements with each country. If you wanted an other example for cabotage then you could take the EU countries and Switzerland, there the cabotage is allowed.

The EU does not count since the EU courts promulgated that the individual member bilateral are null and void and the US must negotiate a new comprehensive bi-lateral with the EU. These negotiations have been ongoing for an extended period due to the refusal of the UK to forego the terms of Bermuda II, the insistance of the EU negotiators on cabotage within the US for EU airlines, and the removal of foreign ownership restrictions for US airlines.

Technically you are right until the traffic rights with third countries are negotiated by Brussels only and no longer by the member states.

I'd call this a grey area right now, because we have the interesting fact that countries which are associated or have agreements with the EU but are not members, enjoy the same freedom as member countries. These are Switzerland, Iceland and Norway. Leave Norway as member in SAS aside, LX does not operate any cabotage AFAIK right now, that leaves Iceland which operates substantial cabotage throught their several supplemental carriers like Air Atlanta, also under own flight numbers.

I would still bot call the Air Berlin services from their PMI hub to various destinations in Spain cabotage.



E's passed on! That parrot is no more! He has ceased to be! E's expired and gone to meet 'is maker!
User currently offlineCHI787ORD From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 517 posts, RR: 4
Reply 19, posted (9 years 3 weeks 1 day ago) and read 14710 times:

Do the US and Canada have Cabotage rights?

User currently offlineAhlfors From Canada, joined Oct 2000, 1341 posts, RR: 5
Reply 20, posted (9 years 3 weeks 1 day ago) and read 14678 times:

Quoting CHI787ORD (Reply 19):
Do the US and Canada have Cabotage rights?

No, though AC would really love to get in on the action south of the border.


User currently offlineEZEIZA From Argentina, joined Aug 2004, 4963 posts, RR: 25
Reply 21, posted (9 years 3 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 14650 times:

wouldn't LAN (Argentina) count?


Carp aunque ganes o pierdas ...
User currently offlineGigneil From United States of America, joined Nov 2002, 16347 posts, RR: 85
Reply 22, posted (9 years 3 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 14641 times:

Quoting BigGSFO (Reply 12):
Puerto Rico and the USVI are separate countries, not US states...

They are NOT separate countries.

N


User currently offlineAhlfors From Canada, joined Oct 2000, 1341 posts, RR: 5
Reply 23, posted (9 years 3 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 14639 times:

Quoting EZEIZA (Reply 21):
wouldn't LAN (Argentina) count?

LAN (Argentina) would not be covered under cabotage rights. Even though LAN (Argentina) is owned by a foreign entity, it is legally registered as an Argentine carrier, and derives its rights from being a local carrier of sorts. So this case has to do with foreign ownership laws and not cabotage.


User currently offlineSQuared From Canada, joined May 2005, 387 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (9 years 3 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 14623 times:

Quoting Ahlfors (Reply 20):
No, though AC would really love to get in on the action south of the border.

Yes, AC and the Canadian government has pushed heavily for cabotage rights in the USA, with reciprocal rights for US carriers. AC would likely benefit the most of any carrier in the US and Canada, as it has relatively large fleet, (easier to shift compared to WS) and a lower cost base than US legacies. However, given the current market situation in the US, this is unlikely to come into fruition in the near future.

I do think it would interesting to board an Air Canada flight from JFK-LAX, though.  Smile

SQuared


25 EGTESkyGod : Bit extreme as an example but Air WALES flies Plymouth to Liverpool.
26 Ahlfors : Ok, last time I checked, Wales and England were under the same sovereignty, that of the United Kingdom. Almost like saying Texas based American Airli
27 Yeggerman : I think they would to a degree, in the same sense though I think it would hurt the Canadian Airlines more than anything. A US carrier would start in
28 Ahlfors : I thought there was an international treaty that aviation fuel is not to be taxed... or does that apply to international flights only. Besides, what
29 DeltAirlines : US law prohibits a foreign airline carrying passengers between two domestic points. For example, from my place here in BOS, if I wanted to fly to SEA
30 Ahlfors : DeltAirlines... yeah, I know about the two domestic points rule. I was responding to Yeggerman's comment about buying the fuel in the states.
31 Post contains links Geoffm : Oh, so you disagree with the EU Parliament? Interesting. http://www.europarl.eu.int/factsheets/4_5_5_en.htm The eighth freedom, known as 'cabotage',
32 DLPMMM : Since even they call the EU a "single market in air transport", no I would not, but then we are getting into semantics.
33 Yeggerman : From my understanding, the aviation fuel in Canada is taxed just like everything else, someone could correct me if I am wrong. As I stated in the bot
34 MAH4546 : They are not seperate countries, they are part of the US. Any US airline can fly these routes, and a foreigh airline must apply with the US DOT to fl
35 AeroWesty : I've never been able to find that US carriers can or will sell you a ticket between DUB and SNN. What does an airline such as Delta charge for a sing
36 Ahlfors : It's more a question of whether they will sell you a ticket as opposed to whether they're allowed to, which they are.
37 Post contains links AeroWesty : The history of U.S. access to Irish airports is best summarized in the following PDF: http://europa.eu.int/comm/transport/...ontributions/aerrianta-sh
38 Post contains images BigGSFO : I guess I got clocked. I know they aren't states but commonwealth/territories and thought they were technically outside the USA. Thanks for the clari
39 Boeing727flyer : Varig used to operate LHR-CPH using a MD-11 and Thai operated AMS-ZRH also with MD-11. Then Air Seychelles operated B707 FRA-LGW.
40 N1120A : Actually, Lufthansa took over intra-German flights in 1990, a year before PA went under The BRD was the sovereign power in West Berlin before reunifi
41 Sebwhite : Earlier this year I flew LGA-YUL-BOS; it was just $180, cheaper than a nonstop flight. I booked it on Expedia on a multicity ticket, under the same PN
42 Chris777 : If I remember well DL use to flew from FRA to BUD and Pan Am did the same with B727.
43 2travel2know : Any centralamerican here knows if TA or LR (Lacsa) have or had cabotage rights between SAP-TGU-LCE-RTB ?
44 Bearcuban12 : Up until April of this year, Lufthansa used to operate a round the world freighter that operated FRA - ORD - LAX - HNL - AKL - MEL - KUL - SHJ - FRA
45 MAH4546 : TACA is a multi-region airline that is five airlines in one, including SASHA, the national airline of Honduras.
46 FlyHoss : IIRC, about a year ago, legislation was passed in the U.S. allowing cabotage on some cargo flights when operating under a code-share. I don't have the
47 Derek1876 : Oh I remember those crazy freedoms of the air. Long time since I have heard that phrase.
48 PanHAM : again, this is a 5th freedom,not a cabotage. And at the time these route was flown Hungary was not part of the EU No traffic rights on the domestic p
49 COSPN : "I believe the HNL-GUM CO Islandhopper has at least two stops in the Federated States of Micronesia, which should qualify as cabotage as Micronesia is
50 ScottB : SAHSA (not SASHA) no longer exists although TACA may still maintain the Honduran subsidiary they created (Taca de Honduras).
51 Wingedarrow : In 2001 British Airways used to fly domestic routes in Italy, especially to Sicily, like FCO-CTA...
52 Kaneporta1 : I thought cabotage is illegal and is considered an act of terrorism. Oh wait, no, that's sabotage...
53 N1120A : Did you book it on a US carrier? If you did, that is totally legal. Also, if you are not a US citizen, there is a possible loophole there. Cabotage i
54 PanHAM : and before the common market was established LH flew GOA-NAP with full rights.,,, nope, in that particluar case it was always a continuation of a fli
55 10MID : Singapore. Any foreign carrier can land in Changi and pick up passengers to Seletar.
56 COSPN : nope, in that particluar case it was always a continuation of a flight originating in the USA, same flight number with (sometimes) multiple plane chan
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