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Boeing's Randy Baseler On The B747Adv  
User currently onlineSNATH From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 3238 posts, RR: 22
Posted (9 years 1 month 8 hours ago) and read 14505 times:

Randy's latest blog entry is about the B747Adv. No decision yet, but apparently, Boeing feels positive about a launch this year, which will mean 2008 rollout and 2009 EIS.

http://www.boeing.com/randy



I'm keeping my fingers crossed!

Tony

[Edited 2005-06-24 03:13:16]


Nikon: we don't want more pixels, we want better pixels.
160 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineFlyAUA From Austria, joined May 2005, 4604 posts, RR: 56
Reply 1, posted (9 years 1 month 8 hours ago) and read 14492 times:

In a news briefing during the show, Commercial Airplanes President and CEO Alan Mulally told reporters that we'll probably decide later this year whether to launch the 747 Advanced. He confirmed that we've gotten "extremely strong interest" from airlines in the Advanced.

Well then just launch the bloody thing istead of just thinking/feeling/hoping to do so. It does make me wonder. They have thought of a great design for an aircraft, they have interest for it from the airlines. Get on with it then!!!



Not drinking, also isn't a solution!
User currently offlineUnited Airline From Hong Kong, joined Jan 2001, 9160 posts, RR: 15
Reply 2, posted (9 years 1 month 7 hours ago) and read 14460 times:

Quoting FlyAUA (Reply 1):
Well then just launch the bloody thing istead of just thinking/feeling/hoping to do so. It does make me wonder. They have thought of a great design for an aircraft, they have interest for it from the airlines. Get on with it then!!!

Exactly! Get on with it and launch the damn thing! They already said that they have recieved extremely strong interest from different parts of the world!


User currently offlineFlyAUA From Austria, joined May 2005, 4604 posts, RR: 56
Reply 3, posted (9 years 1 month 7 hours ago) and read 14441 times:

On another note, looking at those images, I am guessing they are not changing the size of the upper deck? I was wondering if they decided to add more seats to it or keep it unchanged in that sense.


Not drinking, also isn't a solution!
User currently offlineIkramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 21472 posts, RR: 60
Reply 4, posted (9 years 1 month 7 hours ago) and read 14438 times:

Yeah, the longer they wait, the less sense it makes. Do it now, not six months from now, have it fly by the Olympics in 2008, otherwise just stop talking about it, B!

PS - that 747Adv Freighter looks funny with the short hump on the long plane.



Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
User currently onlineSNATH From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 3238 posts, RR: 22
Reply 5, posted (9 years 1 month 7 hours ago) and read 14380 times:

Quoting FlyAUA (Reply 3):
I am guessing they are not changing the size of the upper deck?

Actually, they are. Slightly. Look at this image (from another of Randy's blogs!!!):

http://www.boeing.com/randy/images/747a01_lg.jpg

The two dark stripes are the extensions that will be added. So, yes, the upper deck is slightly longer, due to the extension in front of the wing.

Tony



Nikon: we don't want more pixels, we want better pixels.
User currently offlineFlyAUA From Austria, joined May 2005, 4604 posts, RR: 56
Reply 6, posted (9 years 1 month 7 hours ago) and read 14367 times:

Quoting SNATH (Reply 5):
The two dark stripes are the extensions that will be added. So, yes, the upper deck is slightly longer, due to the extension in front of the wing.

Cool! That's what I was hoping they would do with a newer version, although they haven't done it to the extent I would have imagined. But thanks for the explanation  Smile



Not drinking, also isn't a solution!
User currently offlineDfwRevolution From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 959 posts, RR: 51
Reply 7, posted (9 years 1 month 7 hours ago) and read 14321 times:

>> Well then just launch the bloody thing istead of just thinking/feeling/hoping to do so.

The same could be said of some of their competitor's products  eyebrow 

Does anyone else think the engines look way disproportional? The GEnx variant on the Adv will be slightly smaller than the 787/A350 variant, but those engines still look massive compared to the current 744 fair...


User currently offlineFlyAUA From Austria, joined May 2005, 4604 posts, RR: 56
Reply 8, posted (9 years 1 month 7 hours ago) and read 14308 times:

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 7):
The same could be said of some of their competitor's products

Are you referring to Airbus? Which aircraft are they talking about which hasn't officially been launched yet? None. Thank you and goodnight  wave 



Not drinking, also isn't a solution!
User currently offlineBoeingBus From United States of America, joined May 2004, 1596 posts, RR: 18
Reply 9, posted (9 years 1 month 6 hours ago) and read 14264 times:

Quoting FlyAUA (Reply 8):
Are you referring to Airbus? Which aircraft are they talking about which hasn't officially been launched yet? None.

Actually DFW is right, the A350, Airbus stated that maybe launched in September. So the 747 Advanced could potentially be launched before the A350...

Cheers!



Airbus or Boeing - it's all good to me!
User currently offlineFlyAUA From Austria, joined May 2005, 4604 posts, RR: 56
Reply 10, posted (9 years 1 month 6 hours ago) and read 14232 times:

Quoting BoeingBus (Reply 9):
Actually DFW is right, the A350, Airbus stated that maybe launched in September. So the 747 Advanced could potentially be launched before the A350...

That was the "full industrial launch". Get your facts straight! How many orders does the A350 have? More than one hundred! How many orders does the B747adv have? None, cus it's not even being offered to the airlines. I rest my case  Smile



Not drinking, also isn't a solution!
User currently offlineCM767 From Panama, joined Dec 2004, 651 posts, RR: 1
Reply 11, posted (9 years 1 month 6 hours ago) and read 14203 times:

"No doubt the 747 Advanced with the new-technology GEnx engines in development for the 787 Dreamliner would be more efficient than the much larger A380"


If Boeing could pull that out, definitely they have a winner on their hands, on the other hand since early figures for the A380 are better than expected, is a little hard for me to believe that they can make it.



But The Best Thing God Has Created Is A New Day
User currently offlineIkramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 21472 posts, RR: 60
Reply 12, posted (9 years 1 month 6 hours ago) and read 14192 times:

Correct. The A350 has an authority to offer, the 747Adv does not, but neither has been launched, and the 747Adv could still be launched before the A350 if the authority to offer comes at the same time.


Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
User currently offlineFlyAUA From Austria, joined May 2005, 4604 posts, RR: 56
Reply 13, posted (9 years 1 month 6 hours ago) and read 14170 times:

Quoting CM767 (Reply 11):
"No doubt the 747 Advanced with the new-technology GEnx engines in development for the 787 Dreamliner would be more efficient than the much larger A380"

Yeah I saw that comment too. This guy talks like the Boeing equivalent of Airbus' Leahy. Truly nauseating   

Anyways, I find it very hard to believe that a B747 with less seats can produce lower costs per seat, than an A380 would. It would have to be in the range of +/- 30% cheaper to operate than the B744 to actually have lower per seat costs than the A380. It's hard (if not impossible) to make a B747-size aircraft produce per seat costs lower than an A380 without the economies of scale created by additional rows.

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 12):
and the 747Adv could still be launched before the A350 if the authority to offer comes at the same time.

Correct! I am not saying it will not be. I am just saying they should get on with it while the airlines are still interested in a 747ADV. And for all I know, I really hope that Boeing does launch it very soon. There has been a lot of lip-service lately. That's all I am saying

[Edited 2005-06-24 04:54:51]


Not drinking, also isn't a solution!
User currently offlineWorldXplorer From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 381 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (9 years 1 month 6 hours ago) and read 14100 times:

Quoting FlyAUA (Reply 1):
They have thought of a great design for an aircraft, they have interest for it from the airlines. Get on with it then!!!

AMEN! I am sure will be launched - but the delay is mystery to me. (Waiting for more commitments?)

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 7):
Does anyone else think the engines look way disproportional?

They certainly take some getting used to. But can you remember the first time you saw a 777 and those massive engines?! I fell in love immediately. You could just see the power. That was when I really noticed how small the A340's engines were. I have no doubt the 747ADV will be the same. We will look back on 747-200's, 300's etc, and say "Look at those dinky engines, that just looks goofy."  Smile

WorldXplorer


User currently offlineNorCal From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 2459 posts, RR: 5
Reply 15, posted (9 years 1 month 6 hours ago) and read 14065 times:

Quoting FlyAUA (Reply 13):
Yeah I saw that comment too. This guy talks like the Boeing equivalent of Airbus' Leahy. Truly nauseating

Randy is in no way like Lehay. He actually had some kind things to say about the A380 and congratulated them in a blog entry after the first flight. Lehay has never said anything positive about Boeing. I think hell will freeze over and pigs will fly before Lehay congratulates Boeing on the 787.

Quoting FlyAUA (Reply 13):
Anyways, I find it very hard to believe that a B747 with less seats can produce lower costs per seat, than an A380 would. It would have to be in the range of +/- 30% cheaper to operate than the B744 to actually have lower per seat costs than the A380.

I agree with you on that

Quoting CM767 (Reply 11):
If Boeing could pull that out, definitely they have a winner on their hands, on the other hand since early figures for the A380 are better than expected, is a little hard for me to believe that they can make it.

Any more info on the flight testing, links or anything?


User currently offlineDfwRevolution From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 959 posts, RR: 51
Reply 16, posted (9 years 1 month 6 hours ago) and read 14067 times:

>> AMEN! I am sure will be launched - but the delay is mystery to me. (Waiting for more commitments?)

The issue of A350 launch was discussed in length at an EADS boardmeeting only a week or two before the Paris Airshow, and the decision was made to wait until September to consider product launch. Why the wait? We could go into that all day, but with the so-called "hundreds" of orders they had to have a clue of, one does wonder why launch sooner than later.

Financing, exact tech specs, supplier issues, etc could all be contributing factors... but I find it supremely ironic that FlyAuA chide Boeing for taking their time as if they were the only ones in the industry to do so  Wink

>> Thank you and goodnight

Always the comedian...

>> I find it very hard to believe that a B747 with less seats can produce lower costs per seat, than an A380 would. It would have to be in the range of +/- 30% cheaper to operate than the B744 to actually have lower per seat costs than the A380.

It remains to be seen if the Adv can beat the A388, but with drastically lower trip cost, it can come mighty close.


User currently offlineIkramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 21472 posts, RR: 60
Reply 17, posted (9 years 1 month 5 hours ago) and read 14025 times:

As to why the delay...

From this blog, it seams to be engines. They need to wait on the engines, and it seemed as if the final build of the 747A couldn't be set until the the 787 was ready to fly to be sure the engines live up to the promises, and the design of the plane would need to also wait for the engines to get further along. At least that's what I got from it.

Might explain the A350 delay too. The only reason these engines exist is because B and the 787 willed them into being, so for either airline to bet the farm on them before being sure they will be as good as is claimed would be silly. If the engines can't deliver as promised, both the A350 and 747A would need to get more weight shaved off of them before being built, no?



Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
User currently offlineGigneil From United States of America, joined Nov 2002, 16347 posts, RR: 85
Reply 18, posted (9 years 1 month 5 hours ago) and read 14019 times:

The fact its, little AUA, that the A350 has not been launched.

N


User currently offlineWorldXplorer From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 381 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (9 years 1 month 5 hours ago) and read 13995 times:

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 16):

My AMEN was purely from an aviation geek POV. As a Boeing fan and a 747 fan in particular I personally am anxious to see Boeing launch the ADV.

As to whether the A350 is considered launched yet seems to be in the eye of the beholder around here. For some, like FlyAUA it is already launched and the "Industrial Launch" is just a technicality. It seems that you interpret it differently. I tend to lean in FlyAUA's court on whether or not the A350 has been launched. For all intents and purposes it has. Have all of the financing aspects and other details been ironed out? Probably not, but a reasonable person will agree there will be an A350. I do not hear many people around here claiming the A350 will be a "no-go".

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 16):
but I find it supremely ironic that FlyAuA chide Boeing for taking their time as if they were the only ones in the industry to do so

But that is just the way he is. (Nothing personal FlyAUA, maybe it's all the Redbulls that make you so punchy sometimes)  wink 


User currently offlineNirvarma From New Zealand, joined May 2005, 109 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (9 years 1 month 5 hours ago) and read 13899 times:

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 16):
but I find it supremely ironic that FlyAuA chide Boeing for taking their time as if they were the only ones in the industry to do so

Not really that surprising really....when you look at his signature... duck 

Cheers
NV


User currently offlineSv11 From United States of America, joined May 1999, 161 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (9 years 1 month 4 hours ago) and read 13826 times:

I think if 747Adv can deliver better/equal seat mile costs than A380, it would do well in the marketplace.

sv11


User currently offlineB2707SST From United States of America, joined Apr 2003, 1369 posts, RR: 59
Reply 22, posted (9 years 1 month 4 hours ago) and read 13793 times:

Quoting FlyAUA (Reply 16):
I find it very hard to believe that a B747 with less seats can produce lower costs per seat, than an A380 would. It would have to be in the range of +/- 30% cheaper to operate than the B744 to actually have lower per seat costs than the A380.

I'm sure Boeing and Airbus each have their own set of figures showing their aircraft on top, but there is some reason to believe the A380 is vulnerable to attack from below.

Aircraft efficiency can be attributed to four factors: aerodynamic efficiency, structural efficiency, propulsive efficiency, and economies of scale (spreading fixed costs over more passengers).

- Aerodynamic efficiency: the A380 holds an advantage, although the modified 747ADV wing will show some improvement over the 744 baseline.

- Structural efficiency: the 747 is in the lead here. Despite its use of composites and other advanced materials, the A380 is still a very heavy aircraft relative to its payload capacity. As Widebodyphotog's charts point out, the 747ADV hauls something like 27,500 pounds less payload than the A388 over 8,000 nm, but does so with about 175,000 lbs. less structural weight (see http://www.airliners.net/discussions...eral_aviation/read.main/2141155/).

- Propulsion: tie to slight 747 lead. The 787 engines should be as good, if not better than, the A380's engines.

- Economies of scale: the A380 wins here, but the 747ADV will narrow the gap over the 747-400 and also show improvement versus the 773ER, A346, etc.

It's hard to say which effects will predominate, but given the gap between the 773ER/A346 and the A380-800, the 747ADV should be able to hold its own.

--B2707SST

[Edited 2005-06-24 07:02:10]


Keynes is dead and we are living in his long run.
User currently offlineWestWing From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 2129 posts, RR: 7
Reply 23, posted (9 years 1 month 4 hours ago) and read 13779 times:

Amusing that Boeing still counts those four Philippine Airlines passenger -400s in their tally of 24 existing orders.

[Edited 2005-06-24 07:10:28]


The best time to plant a tree is 40 years ago. The second best time is today.
User currently offlineSv11 From United States of America, joined May 1999, 161 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (9 years 1 month 4 hours ago) and read 13769 times:

I think the 747Adv engines would be a leap in tech over the A380 engines, which seem to be today's technology. This advantage the A380 won't have.

sv11


25 AC787 : "And right now there are 24 orders for 747-400s, both passenger and freighter versions." Can someone just quickly tell me who the passenger 747's are
26 Katekebo : The 747Adv is actually likely to offer lower cost-per-seat than the current version of A380 in 550 passenger configuration. The A380 was designed with
27 Sv11 : Hmm, well the A380 might have growth potential but I don't think you will see the 800 seater any time soon. sv11
28 Zvezda : To be specific, the upper deck of the B747Adv will be extended 80 inches. The other extension in the passenger model (behind the wing) will be 60 inc
29 Airbus3801 : Yes I do, and IMO, I think it looks ugly, I prefer the 744. I was just getting ready to say that..... True, but not so true. Are the engines realy go
30 PlaneSmart : Unfortunately, not enough firm interest to currently contemplate a launch. Why the wait? B and existing / prospective A38 customers await further inf
31 Ikramerica : Window spacing is 20". 3 new windows behind wing plus 4 in front equals 140" equals 1 row of Y+ as 8 seats and 3 rows of Y at 30 seats. 412+30+8 = 450
32 NorCal : Aren't the 744 engines from the 80s? If that is the case then the new GEnx should make a huge difference over the older generation engines. Not so co
33 Zvezda : An additional 140 inches on the main deck plus 80 inches on the upper deck adds about 28 square meters to the cabin floor area. I find it very easy t
34 Ikramerica : My bad, "416" currently, not 412. Which makes it even more likely that 34 seats plus more luxury and lavs would fit no problem at all.
35 Antiuser : I don't really know what's the story with the PR order, but if you mean they don't want it / can't take delivery, both A and B do this. An order is o
36 NA : If after all the increasingly positive talk at Boeing about the 747 Adv. (its launch just being a formality), they still would step back, the manageme
37 Post contains images DAL767400ER : Amusing that Airbus still counts those five Iraqi Aiways passenger A310s in their tally of 5 existing orders . On the topic at hand, in the first pic
38 N1120A : Imagine what it would look like if the Trent 1000 was on offer? As it is, the existing 747-400 weighs 5% less on a per seat basis than does the A388
39 Jet-lagged : It seems Boeing it stretching the anticipation of a launch. With this and other recent releases and interviews, they apparantly have a need to maintai
40 PM : Persistent rumours suggest that it might yet be. Could that be another reason why the launch hasn't happened yet?
41 Zvezda : The WhaleJet more than makes up for that against the current JumboJet by means of better aerodynamics and more efficient engines. However, once the A
42 MidnightMike : Why the wait? Save the announcement for a big event, Dubai Air Show?
43 PM : In recent years it hasn't been Boeing's practice to save big announcements for shows.
44 NA : All signs show that the interest in the 747 Adv. has risen only very recently. Seems the trust in the efficiency of the 787 engines does something, in
45 WhiteHatter : There are too many issues which prevent a premature announcement. Boeing took a bath on the 764 and 753, and also struggled on cost overruns on the 7
46 PM : Hardly. I wasn't there in person but in all the media reports of Le Bourget the 787 was strangely absent.
47 N1120A : I suppose, though RR would have to resolve the issues with making it Bleed-Air and they would have to use a cantilevered pylon As has been discussed
48 NAV20 : It just could be the other way round - will they wait for A380s? Airbus are now talking about first deliveries being delayed until 'at least April 20
49 WhiteHatter : and a million times it has been shown that position is wrong, as Boeing themselves have stated. Namely stated breakeven numbers and actual deliveries
50 NA : "If Boeing would have launched the 747 Advanced at Paris, it would completely have stolen away attention from the 787 and 777LR. Hardly. I wasn't ther
51 PM : Perhaps but Boeing surely wouldn't have objected to selling more than 55 753s and 38 764s. They certainly talked up the 753 as if it was destined for
52 Aither : If the 747ADV "old fat mummy" keeps the same wings, it will remain far less efficient than the A380. A380 engines are new as well. Also the seat gap c
53 Post contains links and images Widebodyphotog : Seating and general arrangement for 747ADV 747ADV will have several wing modifications that not only increase efficiency, but also allow standard crui
54 Post contains images FlyAUA : What's so ironic about it? The A350 has more than a hundred orders! Do you truly question whether it's going to be built??? Get real... Thanks, I am
55 MidnightMike : Boeing does not save aircraft orders for big events, I do not think Boeing ever said anything about new airplane programs???
56 MidnightMike : I was at the Paris Air on Thurday, Boeing placed plenty of attention on the 777-200LR. There was a 787 booth, but, more attention was placed on the 7
57 USAF336TFS : Well said Mr. FlyAUA! I believe the interest in this aircraft will be surprising, even among airlines that have purchased the A380. Would anyone care
58 Aither : Widebodyphoto, Well if it is as super more efficient, why waiting to launch it ? I'm still skeptical about the wings. There will be issues like reenfo
59 JBirdAV8r : Back this up with facts... ...oh that's right, you can't...
60 Post contains images FlyAUA : Thanks It's simple. Boeing has thought up a design for an aircraft that is not offered by anybody else (similar to how the A380 is not offered by any
61 JBirdAV8r : ...so Boeing has no experience in design... That's rather funny, considering their track record...
62 Windshear : I am sooo thinking this could happen! With airlines speaking to Boeing about this, well it sounds like Boeing has a deal. Think of it, Randy states th
63 NA : Whitebodyphotog: With the improvements seat/mile costs should be reduced by at least 20% over current 747-400's and 2-5% better than A380. If Boeing c
64 FlyAUA : Very funny. How disguisting to see the arrogance of some people! Anyways I will waste 5 mins of my life to explain it to you: (1) Boeing is going to
65 Blackbird1331 : If Boeing goes with the new 747 concepts, should they go one step further and add in a tanker version? I know they have the 767 derivative, but, if it
66 Post contains images FlyAUA : Ahaaa, thanks for the response. I didn't think about that. That might just be one of the reasons why they don't have the authority to offer it yet. I
67 Post contains images Typhaerion : Nothing you said to this point FlyAUA really got me until you said this. How ignorant do you have to act before you look stupid? It is quite a bit mo
68 Jaysit : So what happened to Mr Baseler's earlier assertions on how large aircraft like the A380 were essentially white elephants that were not needed?
69 Post contains images USAF336TFS : Well, yes and no... I doubt any of us know what the final design will be. Plus as you know, the 747Adv was never intended as a direct competitor to t
70 Post contains images FlyAUA : Sorry if you were offended. I obviously exaggerated based on that diagram posted by widebodyphotog which highlights (in blue) the parts that have bee
71 Jet-lagged : Fair enough. But, will they push the button? It would be a great plane to see on the tarmac and taking off into the skies! I hope so, but I'm still d
72 Widebodyphotog : Not with 22% less seats than 747ADV, it won't come under any pressure at all. In fact launching the 747ADV moves the 747 out of competition with its
73 Post contains images JBirdAV8r : FlyAUA, I find it funny how you whine about my arrogance, then go and make statements MUCH more imperious than my own...lol. Your imbecility and imma
74 Post contains images Typhaerion : Apology accepted, and I wasn't really offended . I also meant no offense. I thought that it was common knowledge that they were doing the same sorts
75 Post contains images FlyAUA : True! I stand corrected. But they're getting close to it huh? I was only aware of the wintip changes, the new engines, and the stretches. Maybe I mis
76 Typhaerion : I have got to believe that they have 'decided' to launch the aircraft and are just waiting on engineering to give the sales teams the finals stats an
77 NA : whitebodyphotog, you´re of cause right that the enlarged 747Adv. moves away from the 773ERs size and is no more of a competitor as the A380 is, but,
78 Post contains images FlyAUA : The Sonic Cruiser springs to mind
79 Africawings : All, we have talked about the seat/mile cost savings on the 747 Advanced, and the fuel efficient engine's etc, but how much of a factor is range in ma
80 Typhaerion : As a complete package offering two range/passenger variants... Yes. It would. At least, in my humble opinion. One could be a LR version that has 375-4
81 Zvezda : I think this is part of the reason why the B747Adv is stretched from the current JumboJet. The difference in size between the B777-300ER and the B747
82 DAYflyer : It's called the A-350 and NO it has NOT been officially launched yet. Um, you had better get your facts straight before counseling others my friend.
83 Post contains images FlyAUA : Airlines which do not believe they can fill thier seats are not buying the A380 for exactly that reason! And now in English? Shall I send that time m
84 Widebodyphotog : What you have stated are not facts and you really don't offer anything to us to substantiate your so called facts. Here are some things to think abou
85 FlyAUA : And where have the B747adv OEW/payload/MTOW data been made public please?
86 Widebodyphotog : I have to disagree. The market really does not work that way. The 747ADV is sufficiently far away from both A380 and 777-300ER in terms of capacity n
87 N60659 : First, consider the source of the information. Look back in the archives for all of Widebodyphotog's postings and judge for yourself, the veracity of
88 Post contains images Widebodyphotog : The preliminary data has been public since 2003 and the images and data I posted are from the Boeing development study and other Boeing sources. Whil
89 FlyAUA : The preliminary data has been public since 2003 and the images and data I posted are from the Boeing development study and other Boeing sources. While
90 Ikramerica : Just by those numbers, on max 8000nm range and the stated pax configurations, the A380 uses about 10% more fuel per pax, though it can probably carry
91 Ikramerica : The 777-300 is already nearing the 80m length limit at 74m. 6m would add 45-50 seats, putting it in the 744 pax range. In NG lighter form, the 777 mi
92 SNATH : Do you mean compared to the B744? Tony
93 CM767 : After this discussion, and the data presented I see now that, yes, there is a possibility that the ADV would be as or slightly more efficient than the
94 Post contains images Lightsaber : It amazes me how many people forget that weight is so crucial in airliner design. Add 1% weight, you will add 1%+ to your fuel consumption (unless th
95 Post contains images Widebodyphotog : Airbus did originally intend for the then A3XX, to be a three aircraft family. Here is the data for the larger and smaller A3XX models with the 747AD
96 Zvezda : Please quote my definition of speculation. The fact is: I have never defined speculation.
97 SNATH : Hang on. When CO installed blended winglets on their B757s, they claimed it will save 5%. That's the difference bteween no winglets and winglets. The
98 Zvezda : An ovoid cross section requires a lot more material per given interior volume than does a circular cross section. Again, the WhaleJet's thick fuselag
99 B2707SST : It seems more than likely. The 747-400's triple-slotted flaps, while effective, are complex, heavy, and most of all noisy. Boeing moved the 737 from
100 SNATH : Going from triple- to double-slotted flaps was definitely the plan for the (abandoned) B747X project for the reasons you described. I didn't try to c
101 Freedom4all : why don't you get your facts strait, of course its being offered to airlines, Boeing wouldn't say there is strong interest in an airplane if they hav
102 Areopagus : The A380 is not ovoid, but triple-bubble, with floor beams in tension to keep the fuselage shape
103 Post contains images FlyAUA : Sorry, maybe I should have said that it doesn't have and orders yet. Why be so pedantic??? Well, I think it is airlines interested in having the B747
104 Post contains links B2707SST : I assume they extended the spars and possibly did some reinforcing, although Boeing says the weight reduction on the -400 wing was greater than the a
105 Zvezda : While it would take an all-new single-decker with a larger cross section than the A340 to fill the gap between the A340-600 and the A380-800, that is
106 Thrust : Personally, I think the 747Adv has a chance...they stretched it so it could seat more, they made it more efficient...an airplane like this would be mu
107 Post contains images Widebodyphotog : According to Airbus it's an ovoid, an oval shape made from four circular radii connecting at their tangent points to make a seamless shape. I have th
108 DAYflyer : Ok, you got me on that one! It is: If you ask me! Sorry if I miseread you there.
109 Post contains images Theredbaron : Am I the only A net, guy here who finds all this ironic? If Boeing does build the 747 adv, they are justifying Airbus position on Hub and spoke system
110 SNATH : RedBaron (cool user name BTW!), I don't think Boeing ever claimed that there is no market for large planes (of course, I could be eating these words!)
111 Airbus3801 : Do you expect Boeing to get cracking on it that fast? At this rate, we might not see this plane until 2015! The 747ADV has been talked about since th
112 N60659 : Correct. The question is not whether a market exists - it is how large is it? Boeing's CMO has the projected number of large aircraft (400 seats and
113 Widebodyphotog : Boeing's contention is that the market is much smaller than Airbus believes it is. Airbus has spent more than $12,000,000,000 on their belief. Boeing
114 Areopagus : Read that again slowly: Four circular radii. Of course, the two in the middle (forming the lateral sides of the lower passenger deck) are concentric,
115 Post contains images Glideslope : The Pot calling the Kettle Black. Time to go practice some Dump and Burns.
116 Post contains images FlyAUA : Another expression I am not familiar with... but if it's implying I'm pedantic:
117 Post contains images Jacobin777 : no..your missing the point.. what does that have to do with the fact Boeing believes that that VLA market isn't large enough for two manufactures....
118 Theredbaron : If they had something worthwhile to offer they would have launched since 1998, but those guys at Seattle have been dragging its feet ever since and n
119 Post contains links N79969 : This is the above-mentioned report on the market for the A380. www.speednews.com/A380-CPA.pdf It is thorough.
120 Avek00 : It won't be able to. The fact of the matter is that the Flying Forehead will be carrying well over 100,000 pounds in absolute dead weight relative to
121 N79969 : I think that the probable launch of the 747Adv is entirely consistent with Boeing's stated view of the marketplace. They have been saying for several
122 Post contains links and images Lightsaber : Interesting. Even with the cross section widebodyphotog one can see the "unused space" on the upper deck. And that's quite a bilge... Yes, the 747 ha
123 Post contains images FlyAUA : OK last post before bedtime According to my Flight International A388 poster, that space is used for all the air-conditioning/venting system in the A
124 PlaneSmart : Yes. Logistics. Finding finance at competitive margins, when capital markets already view B commercial as fully committed with one high technology pr
125 Post contains images SNATH : RedBaron, If they had launched it in the late 90s, as you're suggesting, what engines do you think they would have put on it? Launching it now gives t
126 Post contains images SNATH : No need! And apologies for jumping at you about it! Tony
127 Widebodyphotog : You did not read clearly... Four radii joined at their point of tangency. And the radii tangency points are not were the decks meet the fuselage. The
128 Ikramerica : No, I mean there is a table, right there before my post, and with a simple calculator, I figured out those numbers. It's the A388 vs. 747Adv, not 744
129 Aither : Just read the data. It's not convincing. There are lots of issues like the wings, noise restrictions, etc.. We have no clear answers. What about the t
130 Post contains links N79969 : Aither, Wings, noise restrictions? What are you talking about? Actually I would say the estimates for the 747Adv are highly reliable given that is bas
131 Astuteman : Widebody, I have a lot of respect for the data that you post, but find this extraordinarily hard to believe. The Trent 900/GP7200 are very new, very
132 Cahiwa : Me too.. although it ended in a nasty split. I was too Californian for her, a laid back, easy goin surfer dude .... she was too Germanic for me... so
133 Beauing : Boeing is forecasting a market of 590 for planes larger than 400 seats over the next 20 years, Airbus is forecasting 1783. If Boeing could get half o
134 Aither : Boeing have raised their forecast to 900...
135 Aither : This is still under the 747s time so if you stretch the 747...
136 Post contains images FlyAUA : Ahaaa, thanks for that. Good to know Has anybody got diagrams to support this? I would love to see what it will look like!
137 Widebodyphotog : Actually the A380 engines are not so impressive in terms of SFC. The Trent 900 engines especially having an SFC of .565lb/lbt compared with .542lb/lb
138 Post contains links and images Widebodyphotog : Overhead crew rest for 777 Crown space utilization study for 747ADV -widebodyphotog
139 Post contains links Beauing : What's your source for this? Mine is Boeing's June 2005 Market Overview page 26. It says 590. http://www.boeing.com/commercial/cmo/pdf/cmo_parisbook.
140 Post contains links Zvezda : My first explanation was a bit of hand waving and evidently not convincing. I'll go into more detail now in an attempt to better answer this excellen
141 Post contains images FlyAUA : " target=_blank>http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/busine...f=871 Thanks for those guys! Looks neat
142 Astuteman : Many thanks once again for the excellent and informative response to my questions. Very grateful, as always. I'm surprised that Trent 900/GP7200 are
143 Post contains links B2707SST : Randy Baseler's blog also has an entry on the topic. See: http://www.boeing.com/randy/archives/2005/02/going_the_dista_1.html and http://www.boeing.c
144 N60659 : Both of you are simultaneously right and wrong. Read reply 112. -N60659[Edited 2005-06-25 18:40:38]
145 Post contains links and images FlyAUA : " target=_blank>http://www.boeing.com/randy/archives....html Thanks! I already had a look at the links. For the lazy people who want a direct pic: As
146 Post contains images Beauing : I said Boeing is "forecasting a market of 590 for planes larger than 400 seats," since freighters don't have more than 400 seats you wouldn't count t
147 N60659 : Okay I'll give you that. But your subsequent analysis: is flawed. The "half the market share" should include both the passenger and freighter version
148 Ikramerica : Correct, for planes of this size, not for all pax as people have said. But it's also a few years later. There is no doubt that as time progresses, th
149 Beauing : I didn't say "half the market share," I said half of the 590 planes over 400 seats. I deliberately restricted my comments to passenger panes. I think
150 Post contains images Lehpron : You're young and have gotten too used to 744 with its stretched upper deck.   I thought they looked like bigass engines too, but it is probably big
151 Widebodyphotog : The preliminary general arrangement shows the 747ADV with 787 engines, the exact same 112 inch fan diameter engines used on 787. Which by coincidence
152 Post contains images DfwRevolution : >> You're young and have gotten too used to 744 with its stretched upper deck. The 744F has the same (shorter) upper deck as the 742 and other pre-74
153 DarthRandall : You know it does look disproportional but not at all unattractive. It reminds me of a 70' Corvette Stingray with it's shark-like hood and sleek lines.
154 Areopagus : Sure -- it's an ovoid composed of circular arcs, as Widebodyphotog noted. Two distinct circles can be "tangent" in one of two ways: externally, where
155 AvObserver : "How many orders does the A350 have? More than one hundred! How many orders does the B747adv have? None, cus it's not even being offered to the airlin
156 Zvezda : The extreme ovoid design of the WhaleJet is inefficient and heavy. Whether the extreme ovoid design was necessary or unnecessary is another question.
157 Post contains images A350 : This is a good point! Progress in engine technology is currently very fast. However, don't forget that also the A380 engines are very modern, probabl
158 Zvezda : Correct. There are three components of airliner efficiency: structural efficiency (JumboJet beats WhaleJet), aerodynamic efficiency (WhaleJet beats J
159 A350 : How do you want to know that the 747 is structurally more efficient? As said above, the extra weight is partially because of the higher wingspan whic
160 Ikramerica : I'm not too young. I've flown the 742 as a kid, and have a UA 741 model on my shelf for the last 25 years. Plus the current 744F has the small top, a
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