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STL Parallel Runways Independent?  
User currently offlineIndy From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 4581 posts, RR: 18
Posted (9 years 5 months 1 week 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 2089 times:

I was looking at the image of STL on Google and wondered if the STL parallel runways were independent or dependent in IFR conditions? I can't really tell on the image how far apart they are.

http://maps.google.com/maps?q=stl&spn=0.031543,0.042658&t=k&hl=en

It looks like STL should have really good taxi times. Is that the case?


Indy = Indianapolis and not Independence Air
17 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineTimz From United States of America, joined Sep 1999, 6896 posts, RR: 7
Reply 1, posted (9 years 5 months 1 week 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 2024 times:

You're asking about the two runways that are maybe 1500 feet apart? The IFR-independent criterion used to be 4300 ft, and it may still be.

User currently offlineIAHFLYR From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 4790 posts, RR: 22
Reply 2, posted (9 years 5 months 1 week 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 2010 times:

Timz you are correct with the 4,300' for duals, can go down to 3,400' with a high update RADAR monitor but, KSTL last I knew totally dependent in IFR weather.


Any views shared are strictly my own and do not a represent those of any former employer.
User currently offlineAS739X From United States of America, joined Apr 2003, 6187 posts, RR: 24
Reply 3, posted (9 years 5 months 1 week 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 2007 times:

Its is dependent. Its in the same boat with SFO (thought STL has more space) in regards to IFR operations. Cloads in, planes out!

ASSFO



"Some pilots avoid storm cells and some play connect the dots!"
User currently offlineSlider From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 6912 posts, RR: 34
Reply 4, posted (9 years 5 months 1 week 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 1993 times:

STL does not have the separation for independent IFR ops, hence the hairbrained W-1W plan.

Now they don't really need it, do they?

Irony is rich. But at least the good retired Colonel Griggs can chuckle about it. Had he only waited until yesterday's SCOTUS ruling, he could have razed the entire villaeg of St. Ann to put up a new runway!

[Edited 2005-06-24 18:53:44]

User currently offlineBoeing7E7 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 5, posted (9 years 5 months 1 week 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 1982 times:

Quoting IAHFLYR (Reply 2):
Timz you are correct with the 4,300' for duals, can go down to 3,400' with a high update RADAR monitor but, KSTL last I knew totally dependent in IFR weather.

Simultaneous offset can now go down to 750'. Pretty slick. They can be on an IFR but have VFR separation from the "just ahead" parallel aircraft. As long as the aircraft in trail can see the other aircraft, then both are good to go ILS. The day is coming with new avionics where we'll be down to 760' IFR without the rapid update radar. Boeing already offers the "380' bubble".

http://av-info.faa.gov/terps/Directives_files/8260.49.pdf

[Edited 2005-06-24 18:57:06]

User currently offlineLambertMan From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 2081 posts, RR: 36
Reply 6, posted (9 years 5 months 1 week 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 1969 times:

Quoting Indy (Thread starter):
It looks like STL should have really good taxi times. Is that the case?

The taxi times are pretty short, but when the new runway comes into play look for that to change drastically (especially WN & AX).


User currently offlineIndy From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 4581 posts, RR: 18
Reply 7, posted (9 years 5 months 1 week 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 1966 times:

I'm going by memory but isn't there two setups that can be used in IFR condidtions depending on the distance between the runways? Well two besides full independent use. One being staggered use and the other being just single use. The new runway that they are going to build in STL is it parallel to the other two or is it crossing? Will it be fully independent?


Indy = Indianapolis and not Independence Air
User currently offlineIAHFLYR From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 4790 posts, RR: 22
Reply 8, posted (9 years 5 months 1 week 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 1958 times:

If the weather is IFR the visual chance is pretty slim if controlling factor is low ceiling. The mess that is flight standards criteria effectively reduces all the wonderful RNP ability that airplanes have today that could enhance capacity NOW.


Any views shared are strictly my own and do not a represent those of any former employer.
User currently offlineBHMNONREV From Australia, joined Aug 2003, 1383 posts, RR: 4
Reply 9, posted (9 years 5 months 1 week 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 1957 times:

Quoting Indy (Thread starter):
It looks like STL should have really good taxi times. Is that the case?

Wait until 11/29 comes on line next year, with arrivals on 29 and those WN birds having to taxi for 4-5 miles to get to the East Terminal. And the folks at STL wonder why Southwest is having fits right now...

Quoting Slider (Reply 4):
Irony is rich. But at least the good retired Colonel Griggs can chuckle about it. Had he only waited until yesterday's SCOTUS ruling, he could have razed the entire villaeg of St. Ann to put up a new runway!

I know that was part of the plan which was endorsed by the ALPA way back when. Raze most of St. Ann, Edmundson and Woodson Terrace and build two more parallels south of I-70 with a nice new midfield terminal sitting atop the interstate, and IIRC it would have not cost much more than Leonard's Legacy, W-1W....


User currently offlineBoeing7E7 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 10, posted (9 years 5 months 1 week 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 1953 times:

Quoting Indy (Reply 7):
I'm going by memory but isn't there two setups that can be used in IFR condidtions depending on the distance between the runways? Well two besides full independent use. One being staggered use and the other being just single use. The new runway that they are going to build in STL is it parallel to the other two or is it crossing? Will it be fully independent?

Correct. There's dependent (less than 4,300'), independent (4,300" or greater) and Simultanious Offset (less than 4,300' but greater than 750'). There's also threshold displacement which decreases the separation by 100' for every 500' of displacement (This helps LAX). The North runways thresholds are roughly 4000' feet futher west than the South Runways. It allows them Simulatanious Inboard/Outboard with dependent parallels.


User currently offlineCat3ils From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 22 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (9 years 5 months 1 week 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 1881 times:

12r and 30L are an ils approach. 12L and 30r are lda dme approach and are used simultaneously during busy periods. However with the death of TWA, I cant believe that they would need to use the parallels as heavy. Typical set up was one runway for departures and the other for arrivals unless it was very heavy traffic.

User currently offlineAtrude777 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 5700 posts, RR: 52
Reply 12, posted (9 years 5 months 1 week 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 1847 times:

Today, I just flew RSW-STL, R30R were being used for Arrivals, and R 30L for take offs.

Alex



Good things come to those who wait, better things come to those who go AFTER it!
User currently offlinePilotpip From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 3152 posts, RR: 11
Reply 13, posted (9 years 5 months 1 week 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 1789 times:

Quoting BHMNONREV (Reply 9):
Wait until 11/29 comes on line next year, with arrivals on 29 and those WN birds having to taxi for 4-5 miles to get to the East Terminal. And the folks at STL wonder why Southwest is having fits right now...

I wouldn't be surprised to see 11 used for landings only and 29 for takeoffs only. WN and the rest from the East Terminal and D would likely stay with the 30s all the time and they would likely send much of the traffic on the west side of the field to the new runway. The taxi time from the end of A to 30R probably isn't any longer than it would be down to 11. It may be even faster because you wouldn't have to deal with crossing a parallell.

Oh, and DEN has some horrible taxi times too. Last time I was there it took us nearly 15 minutes from block out to takeoff and we were rolling the whole time.



DMI
User currently offlinePHLapproach From Philippines, joined Mar 2004, 1246 posts, RR: 18
Reply 14, posted (9 years 5 months 1 week 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 1774 times:

STL is next on the list along with ATL for PRM this year, so they'll be able to run some nice simultaneous close parallel approaches.

[Edited 2005-06-25 08:52:13]

User currently offlineBHMNONREV From Australia, joined Aug 2003, 1383 posts, RR: 4
Reply 15, posted (9 years 5 months 1 week 16 hours ago) and read 1723 times:

Quoting Pilotpip (Reply 13):
I wouldn't be surprised to see 11 used for landings only and 29 for takeoffs only.

I had thought about that as well, but what happens when traffic starts to increase, and during inclement weather ATC wants to do simultaneous IFR approaches. 29 will eventually have to be used for landings, and my guess is they will do all they can to ensure WN has all westerly arrivals on 30R...


User currently offlineFlyf15 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 16, posted (9 years 5 months 1 week 16 hours ago) and read 1717 times:

From the remarks on STL:

WAIVER TO CONDUCT SIMULTANEOUS APCHS TO PARALLEL RYS SEPARATED BY 1,300 FT IN EFFECT.


User currently offlineSTLGph From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 9501 posts, RR: 26
Reply 17, posted (9 years 5 months 1 week 13 hours ago) and read 1693 times:

Quoting BHMNONREV (Reply 9):
Wait until 11/29 comes on line next year, with arrivals on 29 and those WN birds having to taxi for 4-5 miles to get to the East Terminal. And the folks at STL wonder why Southwest is having fits right now...

but haven't we heard that AA and WN have both said they will not send their flights out to the new runway?



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