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Paris: Chinese Copy Of A Mad Dog?  
User currently offlineBlueSky1976 From Poland, joined Jul 2004, 1875 posts, RR: 4
Posted (9 years 2 months 14 hours ago) and read 7050 times:

Hi,

I've stumbled upon this picture here taken at the Paris Air Show this year. Now don't pay any attention to the MA60 model. LOOK WHAT'S IN THE BACKGROUND!!! Would anybody know anything about these ARJ-21 planes?? They look like Mad Dogs with winglets and diffrent engines! Even the tail looks the same! I'm hitting google right now to find some answers... Figured you guys might be interested  

Cheers

EDIT:

I found specifications page HERE. Now don't tell me they didn't copy MDD... I'm wondering if Boeing granted them some sort of a licensing agreement or is it what's left of the AVIC joint venture established wich McDonnell-Douglas in the nineties??

[Edited 2005-06-24 18:20:08]


STOP TERRORRUSSIA!!!
44 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineB742 From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2005, 3767 posts, RR: 19
Reply 1, posted (9 years 2 months 14 hours ago) and read 7030 times:

Looks more like a 717 lookalike to me!

Thanks for the pic, anyone have any more info on this?

The engine seems to be a CFM.

Rob!


User currently offlineDfwRevolution From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 968 posts, RR: 51
Reply 2, posted (9 years 2 months 14 hours ago) and read 7017 times:

If that's CF34 on the engine nacell, isn't it more likely to be something in the RJ class? That being said, China did build a few MD80/90 under liscense from McDonnel Douglas, and maybe they took a few notes for their own  Wink

User currently offlineDtwclipper From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 3, posted (9 years 2 months 14 hours ago) and read 7004 times:

This is the correct information

http://www.centurychina.com/plaboard/archive/3663011.shtml

China tries to break Boeing, Airbus domination with self-made aircraft
http://fpeng.peopledaily.com.cn/200404/07/eng20040407_139691.shtml
China now pins its hopes on ARJ21, (short for Advanced Regional Jet for the 21st century), a self-designed passenger aircraft of the country's own intellectual property rights, to lead its fight against domination by Boeing and Airbus in the aviation industry.

ARJ21 is designed to be a 70-90 seats turbo fan aircraft for civil use, 32.68 meters in length. Its extended model would have 105 seats, 36.06 meters in length. The aircraft is designed for a distance from 1,200 to 3,700 kilometers.

ARJ21 is not a large mainline plane, but its birth means the opening of a new air route over China's sky along which it will fly side by side with Boeing and Airbus planes.

On December 20, 2003, manufacture of ARJ21 was kicked off simultaneously in four plants in Shanghai, Xi'an, Chengdu and Shenyang.

China capable of producing its own "Boeing" and "Airbus"

Unlike earlier planes jointly developed with foreign countries, such as Brazil, ARJ21 is a completely China designed airplane, experts said.

Although a regional jet, ARJ21 is of a higher grade that lies between feeder and mainline jets. Since it adopts general equipment of mainline jets, such as Boeing 737, its designing work is more difficult because it's harder to put equipment of the same size for large aircraft into a smaller one.

As for whether China is now capable of designing mainline aircraft, aviation expert Zhou Jisheng said in a very affirmative tone, "China is now able to make large mainline aircraft, on top of designing, China can also produce and manage mainline aircraft after cooperation with Mcdonnell Douglas on MD90. This problem has been solved".

"With the ability to produce ARJ21, we can make 150-seats single-passage aircraft like Boeing 737. If China is determined to leap further, plane like Boeing 767 (250-300 seats, narrow-bodied, single passage with seven seats in one row) is also possible. But those like Boeing 747 (broad-bodied, 10 seats in one row) is currently quite difficult for our country".


Not resigned to domination of China's market by foreign brands
The ARJ project receives support from all quarters, said Zhou. "This represents the main trend of conscience and love for the country, because people are not reconciled to domination of the Chinese market all by foreign brands. Besides, ARJ is competitive in terms of price".

"Through our market survey we found that the post-sale service of MD82 and MD90 is very good, but it's too pricey. An overhaul to a large Boeing aircraft needs more than 100 million yuan, so our airlines are also looking forward to home-made planes", another expert Zhao Guoqiang added.

"Production of ARJ is only a start. You cannot depend on the project alone to lift the whole aviation industry out of difficulties. But if ARJ turns out to be of good performance and enjoys brisk markets, we can say the industry has taken a big step forward", said Gao Liang, a noted economist in Beijing.

Civil aviation is a strategic industry of high input, high risk, high tech, long period and slow returns, so we cannot expect immediate benefits, Zhao pointed out.

[Edited 2005-06-24 18:23:51]

User currently offlineTheSonntag From Germany, joined Jun 2005, 3564 posts, RR: 29
Reply 4, posted (9 years 2 months 14 hours ago) and read 6994 times:

According to FlugRevue 03/2005, this is a chinese project for a regional jet. It shall already fly in 2006, seat approximately 95 passengers and should be powered by CF34-10A engines with 80Kn. (see the German magazine FlugRevue 03/2005, page 30-31.

In my opinion, this happens when we all are so stupid that we build everything in China. This jet is clearly based on the MD 80 which was produced in Shanghai (35 airframes built in China).

We can see it in all areas: The chinese are only allowing Joint Ventures in China, so that 50% of the company remains chinese, which allows them to gather know how. I am sorry to get that political, but in my opionion the western states are risking way too much by allowing China to get that much of know-how.

The AR21 might be uncompetitive, but it is the first step for the chinese, just wait what happens in 10 to 20 years. As far as I know, one of the reasons for the failure of the AVIC (Airbus project for a regional jet, replaced by the A318) project was that Airbus wanted to avoid the chinese getting access to the Airbus FBW technology.

Please don't flame me for that post, but thats the way I see it.

Michael


User currently offlineBlueSky1976 From Poland, joined Jul 2004, 1875 posts, RR: 4
Reply 5, posted (9 years 2 months 14 hours ago) and read 6965 times:

Looks like an old MDD fuselage with all-new wing and engines
picture 1
picture 2

looks like Mad Dog is alive after all  Smile



STOP TERRORRUSSIA!!!
User currently offlineAS739X From United States of America, joined Apr 2003, 6124 posts, RR: 23
Reply 6, posted (9 years 2 months 14 hours ago) and read 6945 times:

Does this surprise you that China would have a plane looking so much like someone else's? If Airbus would have built a plane in China , you'd have A320 look alikes as well.

ASSFO



"Some pilots avoid storm cells and some play connect the dots!"
User currently offlineBlueSky1976 From Poland, joined Jul 2004, 1875 posts, RR: 4
Reply 7, posted (9 years 2 months 14 hours ago) and read 6925 times:

...and for the final eyecandy: the three-way drawing  

EDIT: ok, so apparently aerosite.net does not allow for direct links, so instead you guys have the main ARJ-21 page with the drawing on it...

[Edited 2005-06-24 18:39:23]


STOP TERRORRUSSIA!!!
User currently offlineBlueSky1976 From Poland, joined Jul 2004, 1875 posts, RR: 4
Reply 8, posted (9 years 2 months 14 hours ago) and read 6894 times:

Quoting AS739X (Reply 6):
Does this surprise you that China would have a plane looking so much like someone else's? If Airbus would have built a plane in China , you'd have A320 look alikes as well.

Looks like you haven't read my post fully. I asked if this has anything to do with their MDD joint venture and it apparently does. Besides Chinese for ages copied Russian designs. And as far as A320 look alikes, apparently you don't remember the AE316 and AE317 proposed jets....



STOP TERRORRUSSIA!!!
User currently offlineAS739X From United States of America, joined Apr 2003, 6124 posts, RR: 23
Reply 9, posted (9 years 2 months 14 hours ago) and read 6865 times:

I read your post just fine. Sorry, if you know anything about China's practices, it obvious. They are the pirating captial of the world. Of course it lookes like a MD80 cause it practically is. No I don't remember the AE316/7 cause I don't care for their products. Most never go anywhere and no airline I care about would ever buy there planes. I hope not! Now if I have seem bitter towards China, I am. I work for Alaska and we have our reasons!

ASSFO



"Some pilots avoid storm cells and some play connect the dots!"
User currently offlineVivek0072 From India, joined Jun 2005, 284 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (9 years 2 months 13 hours ago) and read 6771 times:

I doubt if any non- Chinese carriers would buy it. If the initial + operating cost is low then it would surely give both A&B owners a run for their money. But I am sure western FAAs would not certify it that easily.


That life's most failures were people who did not realise how close they were to success when they gave up. - Edison.
User currently offlineSrbmod From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 11, posted (9 years 2 months 11 hours ago) and read 6603 times:

Quoting BlueSky1976 (Reply 7):

EDIT: ok, so apparently aerosite.net does not allow for direct links, so instead you guys have the main ARJ-21 page with the drawing on it...

So that's what the 717-100 might have looked like......


User currently offlineAirbazar From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 8287 posts, RR: 10
Reply 12, posted (9 years 2 months 11 hours ago) and read 6517 times:

Quoting Vivek0072 (Reply 10):
I doubt if any non- Chinese carriers would buy it. If the initial + operating cost is low then it would surely give both A&B owners a run for their money. But I am sure western FAAs would not certify it that easily.

That's not the point. The point is that when they [the Chinese] get it right, they will take a huge chunck out of A&B market share, considering China has the potential for being one of A&B's biggest customer in the near future.
And if it passes all certification critiria, there's nothing "western FAA's" can do.


User currently offlineFriendlySkies From United States of America, joined Aug 2004, 4105 posts, RR: 5
Reply 13, posted (9 years 2 months 11 hours ago) and read 6516 times:

Kind of looks like a DC-9-30 with 727 wings and CRJ engines/winglets. Good luck, but I have heavy doubts that China can produce it's own Boeing/Airbus...maybe something to compete with Embraer, but even that is starting to become less and less likely. No offense to any Chinese...but I don't think any upstart in any country could grow fast enough to have a chance against the big two.

User currently offlineBlueSky1976 From Poland, joined Jul 2004, 1875 posts, RR: 4
Reply 14, posted (9 years 2 months 9 hours ago) and read 6382 times:

Quoting Vivek0072 (Reply 10):
I doubt if any non- Chinese carriers would buy it.

There is enough market for it in mainland China. They don't have to sell it anywhere else.

Quoting FriendlySkies (Reply 13):
Good luck, but I have heavy doubts that China can produce it's own Boeing/Airbus...

Ummm... they already did. As stated in the earlier post, they manufactured 32 of MD-87.



STOP TERRORRUSSIA!!!
User currently offlineFlyAUA From Austria, joined May 2005, 4604 posts, RR: 56
Reply 15, posted (9 years 2 months 7 hours ago) and read 6256 times:

Quoting BlueSky1976 (Thread starter):
I'm wondering if Boeing granted them some sort of a licensing agreement or is it what's left of the AVIC joint venture established wich McDonnell-Douglas in the nineties??

Oh come on, so everybody who builds and aircraft that looks like the maddog and has 2 engines at the rear is copying MDD? I don't think so!

Thanks for pointing it out though, I remember seeing it. It was in the same hall as the EADS area wasn't it?



Not drinking, also isn't a solution!
User currently offlineWhiteHatter From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 16, posted (9 years 2 months 7 hours ago) and read 6242 times:

It actually looks more of a hybrid of the Tupolev Tu-334 and 717/DC9


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Andrei Pechenkin



User currently offlineN766UA From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 8230 posts, RR: 23
Reply 17, posted (9 years 2 months 7 hours ago) and read 6203 times:

Those 2 side view drawings look exactly like an MD-87 or 717 with different engines. The tail and the cockpit windows are identical! The only big difference is that it lacks a crease in the fusulage.


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User currently offlineB2443 From United States of America, joined Jul 2004, 703 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (9 years 2 months 7 hours ago) and read 6165 times:

Quoting TheSonntag (Reply 4):
We can see it in all areas: The chinese are only allowing Joint Ventures in China, so that 50% of the company remains chinese, which allows them to gather know how. I am sorry to get that political, but in my opionion the western states are risking way too much by allowing China to get that much of know-how.

hate to break your heart...nobody forces western states to risk whatever your talking about in China. They are motivated by profits and nothing else really matters...would you call this an economics (or capitalist) principle? Stop blaming China for your own faults...such as short sightness, greediness etc. So f*cking tried of hearing these "its someone's fault" crying babies...


User currently offlineJet-lagged From United States of America, joined Mar 2002, 872 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (9 years 2 months 6 hours ago) and read 6130 times:

Quoting Vivek0072 (Reply 10):
I doubt if any non- Chinese carriers would buy it. If the initial + operating cost is low then it would surely give both A&B owners a run for their money. But I am sure western FAAs would not certify it that easily.

The world is a big place. Companies like Huawei (yes, the one Cisco is suing) have some good success in Africa and the Middle East, and I could see some countries buying. Probably China is driven by two motives - profits from a commerical aircraft venture, and development of aerospace industry to better enable it to defend itself or invade Taiwan.

Quoting Dtwclipper (Reply 3):
a self-designed passenger aircraft of the country's own intellectual property rights, to lead its fight against domination by Boeing and Airbus in the aviation industry.

I love this quote. The irony in staightfaced declaration of 'the country's own' IP rights, and positioning it as a moral struggle against the 'domination' of the terrible outsiders.


User currently offlineFriendlySkies From United States of America, joined Aug 2004, 4105 posts, RR: 5
Reply 20, posted (9 years 2 months 4 hours ago) and read 6021 times:

Quoting BlueSky1976:
Ummm... they already did. As stated in the earlier post, they manufactured 32 of MD-87.

I meant the company, not an actual Airbus/Boeing model...I probably could have worded that better.


User currently offlinePacific From Hong Kong, joined Mar 2000, 1051 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (9 years 2 months ago) and read 5670 times:

Let's hope China will get useful knowledge from building this. Technology over there should be much more advanced at the time when they built a plane very similar to that of a 707 in the 80s.

User currently offlineEnviroTO From Canada, joined Aug 2004, 825 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (9 years 2 months ago) and read 5579 times:

Quote:
In my opinion, this happens when we all are so stupid that we build everything in China. This jet is clearly based on the MD 80 which was produced in Shanghai (35 airframes built in China).

We can see it in all areas: The chinese are only allowing Joint Ventures in China, so that 50% of the company remains chinese, which allows them to gather know how. I am sorry to get that political, but in my opionion the western states are risking way too much by allowing China to get that much of know-how.

China and other developing countries need to catch up somehow. We need to find ways to maintain our lives without forcing the rest of the world to be poor and technologically ignorant. Does Germany's auto sector suffer because Britain or the US can make cars? As China's economy grows, so does China's consumption.


User currently offlineKennyk From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2005, 482 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (9 years 1 month 4 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 5358 times:

I would not be surprised to see this project become a moderate commercial success. China can produce copies and licensed builds OK, but its own indigenous designs do not fare too well. I think this aircraft will change that and will sell very well within China and developing countries.

What is of more concern is what might follow this aircraft as the Chinese industry develops further. A joint project with India for a true 737/A320 replacement in a few years time could be a very serious threat to Airbus & Boeing.

Don't write the Chinese or any other developing countries aircraft off. You only have to look at Embraer and their success, worse still, put Brazil, China and India together, local purchases alone would make a 737/A320 sized aircraft a success, your talking many hundreds of aircraft.

Times.... they are a changing.


User currently offlineJeb94 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 598 posts, RR: 5
Reply 24, posted (9 years 1 month 4 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 5260 times:

This aircraft uses the aerodynamics from the MD80/90 but it appears a little narrower. The wing has the same shape as the MD80/90 and the same cockpit window and tail shape but it has considerably smaller engines. This would leave me to believe that this aircraft is structurally very different than the Mad Dog, though probably built using knowledge gained by building MDs. The Mad Dogs are the basis for this design from outward appearance but it isn't an out right copy. Besides, the Chinese do hold a license to build the MD80/90 as someone mentioned and have built 22 90s. If someone wants new build MD80s or 90s they can always try to arrange a deal with China, subject to government approval of course.

25 Bennett123 : Friendlyskies People used to say this about Japan as well.
26 RICARDOAB : A bit of a false statement by the Chinese I would say. We have already seen how these dated designs cannot work in the modern airline environment wit
27 Jeb94 : The 717 and MD90 are only failures of marketing, not of design. They are superb aircraft and there are airlines that would like more MD90s but would h
28 Glideslope : Outstanding point. This is the 800 pound Gorilla that is going to come back and take ALL of your bananas. You see it happening in many other areas as
29 Cha747 : SO WILL NORTHWEST REPLACE THEIR DC-9'S WITH THIS?? (Ducking to avoid the ban/delete gestapo)
30 Bennett123 : Stranger things have happened.
31 F14D4ever : It is indeed the CF34-10A. It's a slightly derated version of the -10E on the Embraer 190/195.
32 Post contains images Jepstein : I agree B742, but it's kind of like the 737 with winglets of the Mad Dog world, so I think it looks very cool.
33 Dtw9 : From Business week -online Nov 13 2002 {A handful of deals inked during the Zhuhai show highlighted China's ambitions to develop a home-grown aviation
34 PSAelectra : My 2-cents: Airbus and Boeing should not be worried about the ARJ family. No doubt China has talented technical capability and will only get better in
35 Tatfsn : Putting aside the valid economic, marketing, and geopolitical issues raised, I for one think the proposed aircraft is great looking (a kind of jazzed-
36 AR1300 : Looks like they are using some of the knowledge(and blueprints)left behind by those chinese built MD-80's. Mike. P.S:the windshield looks ''airbusy''
37 DfwRevolution : >> Given that Boeing has thrown in the towel on the B717 (having made relatively little effort to make it a big player) Oh whatever dude... Remember
38 PPVRA : Look like a hybrid of an F-100 and a Mad Dog with pulled-back ERJ wings!!
39 Mandala499 : Well, those CF34s are now available in the 18klbs thrust range... like the JT8D-17R and CFM56 low ends... So, a DC9-30/717 rebuilt ? With winglets, or
40 Post contains images ME AVN FAN : Why should they NOT do what everybody does ? -
41 SkyexRamper : Boeing is or was helping China with the creation of this airplane. Thats why it kinda looks like a 717.
42 Post contains images HAWK21M : The Chinese are known to have made Chinese copies of many Aircraft.How do they do this. Someone Gets the Blueprints. regds MEL
43 Tatfsn : >> Given that Boeing has thrown in the towel on the B717 (having made relatively little effort to make it a big player) >>Oh whatever dude... Remember
44 Incitatus : Before closing the line, Boeing was offering the 717 at low 20 millions per plane. The marketing failure of Boeing (or MDD) was not in lack of effort
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