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How Man Legacy Carriers Will JetBlue Take Down?  
User currently offlineB707Stu From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 918 posts, RR: 4
Posted (9 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 6350 times:

I just came back from my first JetBlue flights. A simple roundtrip JFK-SYR-JFK. When's the last time you saw f/a's eager to help people with their carry on luggage to the point they greeted people, brought them to their seats and placed their luggage above? When's the last time you actually experienced genuinely friendly crews and watched Judy Judy at 22,000 feet? I'm over 30 years a commercial enthusiast and air traveller, including 18 yrs working for airlines and other travel related industry.

I came away from this experience wondering how many "full service" legacy carriers will JetBlue or a similar type, eg SOuthwest, AirTrain, bring down? To be honest, I hope it's all of them but want to hear others opinions please.

64 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineB707Stu From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 918 posts, RR: 4
Reply 1, posted (9 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 6337 times:

Note to the moderator: this is not a poll, it's a discussion of the impact of discounted carriers against the legacies and what's happening in the industry.

User currently offlineNewkai From United States of America, joined Jul 2004, 330 posts, RR: 1
Reply 2, posted (9 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 6322 times:

Not many carriers have been able to take down B6 on routes. The only example I can think of is that DL drove B6 out of ATL.

User currently offlineSrbmod From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 3, posted (9 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 6294 times:

Quoting Newkai (Reply 2):
The only example I can think of is that DL drove B6 out of ATL.

You can't give DL all of the credit on that, as FL played a role in it as well, even though they weren't flying their own metal on the routes. One of the problems that B6 had in ATL is that all of the cities they connected to @ LGB already had non-stop service out of ATL on DL, so their feed was primarily O & D, and with DL offering service to LAX, ONT, and SNA out of ATL. B6 really got put in a corner when FL added LAX and later SFO to compete with the last ditch move by B6 to add OAK, as it was the most popular connection of the customers on the ATL-LGB flights. The failure of B6 @ ATL was due to poor planning. I still think B6 made a mistake by not starting JFK-ATL flights, as other than FL's flights into EWR and LGA, there was no other true LCC on the routes between ATL and the NYC area airports (DL putting Song on the ATL-JFK was partially to keep B6 off of the route). If they would have offered ATL-JFK flights that were timed to coordinate with the LGB-ATL flights, they could have possibly made ATL work.


User currently offlineDtwclipper From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 4, posted (9 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 6259 times:

B707Stu:

Read this thread, and then rethink this post!

http://www.airliners.net/discussions...eral_aviation/read.main/2095745/4/

dtwclipper


User currently offlineFA4B6 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 5, posted (9 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 6248 times:

Quoting Srbmod (Reply 3):
You can't give DL all of the credit on that, as FL played a role in it as well, even though they weren't flying their own metal on the routes. One of the problems that B6 had in ATL is that all of the cities they connected to @ LGB already had non-stop service out of ATL on DL, so their feed was primarily O & D, and with DL offering service to LAX, ONT, and SNA out of ATL. B6 really got put in a corner when FL added LAX and later SFO to compete with the last ditch move by B6 to add OAK, as it was the most popular connection of the customers on the ATL-LGB flights. The failure of B6 @ ATL was due to poor planning. I still think B6 made a mistake by not starting JFK-ATL flights, as other than FL's flights into EWR and LGA, there was no other true LCC on the routes between ATL and the NYC area airports (DL putting Song on the ATL-JFK was partially to keep B6 off of the route). If they would have offered ATL-JFK flights that were timed to coordinate with the LGB-ATL flights, they could have possibly made ATL work.

What's sad is that towards the end, the LGB/OAK-ATL flights were full [I know I know blah blah blah]. I think that sometimes JetBlue has the same syndrome my last company [non-airline] has where if it doesn't turn to gold the moment they touch it, it's deemed a failure. I think JetBlue should've nurtured ATL more, kept the LGB/OAK-ATL 1x daily redeye service, and grown ATL from there. I'm not sure though that JFK-ATL would've been successful, it seems pretty saturated. B6 did drive the airfares down on ATL-LA significantly, though [am I correct in saying that?]


User currently offlineB747-437B From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 6, posted (9 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 6230 times:

Quoting FA4B6 (Reply 5):
I think JetBlue should've nurtured ATL more, kept the LGB/OAK-ATL 1x daily redeye service, and grown ATL from there

With Delta having access to essentially infinite incremental capacity both through their larger fleet as well as their infrastructure available at destination airports (remember LGB is severely slot constrained), jetBlue realized that the only way they could grow market share in Atlanta would be by selling at a further deflated yield and higher load factor which would become unsustainable beyond the next year with projected cost increases. It was a long term view that drove B6 out of Atlanta because there was no doubt that they were doing fine in the short and mid-term, but the resources were better deployed elsewhere.


User currently offlineBurnsie28 From United States of America, joined Aug 2004, 7564 posts, RR: 8
Reply 7, posted (9 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 6150 times:

I think you fail to realize one thing, its simple.

Here are my thoughts.
Many of the legacy carriers have older FA's, thus, with all the hiring freezes and layoffs new more energetic FA's and other employees will come on board making them much like B6 in attitude, which all the LCC's have because they are in fact much younger.

Secondly, if say all the legacy carriers went down, how are you going to get anywhere, sure the LCC's can currently get you domestically and maybe a few international (mexico and caribbean) but what about Europe and Asia, the LCC's offer little if any benefits or services other then a seat. Also, those cheap fares and "great" attitude you seem to enjoy would be gone, and they would become just like legacy carriers today.

Im flying WN this summer, but thats only because I could not afford a legacy out of SFO, otherwise i would have happily given my money to them instead of supporting airlines that under pay their employees and dont have the programs and worldwide reach that Legacy carriers do.



"Some People Just Know How To Fly"- Best slogan ever, RIP NW 1926-2009
User currently offlineAa757first From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 3350 posts, RR: 7
Reply 8, posted (9 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 6108 times:

Quoting B707Stu (Thread starter):

I came away from this experience wondering how many "full service" legacy carriers will JetBlue or a similar type, eg SOuthwest, AirTrain, bring down? To be honest, I hope it's all of them but want to hear others opinions please.

You hope jetBlue destroys all other carriers? Ok, enjoy your $426 non-refundable ticket between JFK and SYR.

Sorry, jetBlue isn't going to kill anyone. As they bring on the new EMB-190, costs will go up. Next, employees will start "Hey, we are one of the most profitable airlines and my pay maxes out at $xx!" and will start a union campaign. I hear flight attendants are already making some galley talk about getting a union in. I'm not saying jetBlue is going to die, but they are certainly going to be made weaker as their costs increase.

AAndrew


User currently offlineNewkai From United States of America, joined Jul 2004, 330 posts, RR: 1
Reply 9, posted (9 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 6091 times:

Quoting Burnsie28 (Reply 7):
i would have happily given my money to them instead of supporting airlines that under pay their employees and dont have the programs and worldwide reach that Legacy carriers do.

The legacies don't underpay, they just fire!  Smile


User currently offlineLuv2fly From United States of America, joined May 2003, 12150 posts, RR: 49
Reply 10, posted (9 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 6078 times:

Quoting Aa757first (Reply 8):
Sorry, jetBlue isn't going to kill anyone. As they bring on the new EMB-190, costs will go up. Next, employees will start "Hey, we are one of the most profitable airlines and my pay maxes out at $xx!" and will start a union campaign. I hear flight attendants are already making some galley talk about getting a union in. I'm not saying jetBlue is going to die, but they are certainly going to be made weaker as their costs increase.

Oh the tired arguments about the 190's going to be the down fall of B6!



You can cut the irony with a knife
User currently offlineLuvfa From United States of America, joined May 2005, 447 posts, RR: 4
Reply 11, posted (9 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 6065 times:

Quoting Burnsie28 (Reply 7):
Im flying WN this summer, but thats only because I could not afford a legacy out of SFO, otherwise i would have happily given my money to them instead of supporting airlines that under pay their employees and dont have the programs and worldwide reach that Legacy carriers do.

With our new contract WN's F/A pay is competitive with all the legacy carriers. Our pilots got a good raise in their last contract extension. While we are concerned with our rising costs; Gary Kelly has found a way to drive down our non-labor costs. Fuel hedging has really helped us as well.

Sadly, all of our competitors are going after labor where management needs to shoulder the blame!


User currently offlineNewkai From United States of America, joined Jul 2004, 330 posts, RR: 1
Reply 12, posted (9 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 6048 times:

I guess I read the topic wrong, due to the typo... I see now that the question is "How many Legacy Carriers Will JetBlue Take Down?"

Hmmmm... Well, there aren't that many left to take down, so I'll say none.


User currently offlineMidway2airtran From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 864 posts, RR: 2
Reply 13, posted (9 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 5963 times:

Quoting B707Stu (Thread starter):
how many "full service" legacy carriers will JetBlue or a similar type, eg SOuthwest, AirTrain, bring down?

IMO, the Legacy carriers are the ones that shot themselves in the foot relying on their own dinosaur aged business practices and lack of innovation. This is now the Information Age and those type of businesses are dying left and right in all industries. In these times information flows so fast and available to all that product/business cycles are shorter than ever and businesses must be built to react and constantly adapt, or die. For example, Southwest has done this well, look at all the things they've done in recent years that we would have never thought to have been done by the way we knew them in the past.

To sum it up, many Legacy carriers were ignorant of change and provided the opportunity for competition to form and better serve the public, that's how the capitalistic system works. The funny thing is that many Legacy carriers still haven't diverted from their past perspectives, even while they are losing big time.

Quoting Burnsie28 (Reply 7):
Many of the legacy carriers have older FA's, thus, with all the hiring freezes and layoffs new more energetic FA's and other employees will come on board making them much like B6 in attitude, which all the LCC's have because they are in fact much younger.

Look at Southwest, most crews have that same energy and spirit and have been working there for decades. It's more than newness, its Corporate culture! Same as my saying above...



"Life is short, but your delay in ATL is not."
User currently offlineApodino From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 4317 posts, RR: 6
Reply 14, posted (9 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 5934 times:

Quoting Burnsie28 (Reply 7):
Im flying WN this summer, but thats only because I could not afford a legacy out of SFO, otherwise i would have happily given my money to them instead of supporting airlines that under pay their employees and dont have the programs and worldwide reach that Legacy carriers do.

Aren't WN pilots now among the best paid in the industry? How can you say you are supporting an airline that underpays its employees when they pay many of their employees as well or not better than legacy carriers?


User currently offlineCommavia From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 11966 posts, RR: 62
Reply 15, posted (9 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 5923 times:

Quoting Midway2airtran (Reply 13):
Look at Southwest, most crews have that same energy and spirit and have been working there for decades.

I don't think so. I am almost positive that if you compared the average age of a WN FA with an AA or DL FA, WN's would be significantly lower. The reason? In this seniority-based, unionized industry, layoffs mean juniority goes first. As AA, DL, UA, and just about every other legacy has laid people off since 9/11, their junior people are all gone, leaving many senior FAs. At WN, by contrast, and at B6, FL, and all the other low-fare airlines, they have been hiring like crazy to keep up with their (IMO unsustainable) growth. The result -- their FAs are young and energetic, if lower paid in some cases, while the FAs at the legacies are old and, in many cases, bitter and rude.

Quoting Midway2airtran (Reply 13):
It's more than newness, its Corporate culture! Same as my saying above...

The corporate culture has a huge part to do with it, no doubt -- and WN has been enormously successful in that way -- but youth certainly has a role to play as well.


User currently offlineLuv2fly From United States of America, joined May 2003, 12150 posts, RR: 49
Reply 16, posted (9 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 5906 times:

Quoting Commavia (Reply 15):
I don't think so. I am almost positive that if you compared the average age of a WN FA with an AA or DL FA, WN's would be significantly lower.

I would have to disagree with that as WN has not laid off any FA's after 9-11



You can cut the irony with a knife
User currently offlineCommavia From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 11966 posts, RR: 62
Reply 17, posted (9 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 5893 times:

Quoting Luv2fly (Reply 16):
I would have to disagree with that as WN has not laid off any FA's after 9-11

Nobody said they did. I was saying that the average age of the WN FA roster is significantly lower than at the legacies -- not because they haven't been laying people off, but because they have been hiring new FAs while all the legacies have been laying people off. They, and all the other LCCs, have been injecting new, young blood into the FA ranks while some fairly senior FAs have pretty much retained the majority at most of the legacies because all the junior people have been furloughed.


User currently offlineLuv2fly From United States of America, joined May 2003, 12150 posts, RR: 49
Reply 18, posted (9 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 5873 times:

Quoting Commavia (Reply 17):
Nobody said they did. I was saying that the average age of the WN FA roster is significantly lower than at the legacies -- not because they haven't been laying people off, but because they have been hiring new FAs while all the legacies have been laying people off. They, and all the other LCCs, have been injecting new, young blood into the FA ranks while some fairly senior FAs have pretty much retained the majority at most of the legacies because all the junior people have been furloughed.

Just because they are hirring not all the FA's are going to be new hires, they do have seniot FA's as well.



You can cut the irony with a knife
User currently offlineLawnDart From United States of America, joined May 2005, 975 posts, RR: 3
Reply 19, posted (9 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 5850 times:

Quoting Midway2airtran (Reply 13):
IMO, the Legacy carriers are the ones that shot themselves in the foot relying on their own dinosaur aged business practices and lack of innovation.

What "dinosaur aged business practices" or "lack of innovation" are you talking about? The hub and spoke model, the electronic reservation system, a multi-type fleet, different fare levels? Or are you talking about an older work force, which comes with the length of time a company is in business (even WN has some sky hags...), frequent flier programs, etc. "Business practices" leaves a lot of room to maneuver, and I would dare say that the US airline industry is one of the most innovative due in large part to the legacy carriers (Innovation is not always effective, however).

The low-cost carriers are not all the same. AirTran is nothing more than a hub-and-spoke carrier with 2 types of aircraft in a relatively small fleet. JetBlue operates out of some of the most expensive and congested airports in the country (BOS / JFK / FLL), and will soon have two aircraft types themselves. Southwest is one of the most heavily unionized airlines in the business and they, too, are starting service out of expensive, congested airports (or have for years, in the case of LAX). How much money would they be making if they didn't have fuel hedges?

Some of the low-cost carriers will continue being successful (WN), others may flourish - too soon to tell with B6. ATA may end up disappearing (WN wants the MDW facilities, I doubt anything more), and HP is taking a HUGE risk with the US merger.

The legacy carriers have made mistakes, and have had a tough time adjusting to changing market realities. Some of them will catch on, however, and survive as stronger carriers than before. They provide invaluable service to places the LCCs will not be able to go to for many years to come, or have no interest in going to in the first place. They have market reach, through depth of their own service or through alliances. Once they've figured out some issues, I truly believe there will be possibly fewer, but much stronger, legacy carriers.


User currently offlineCommavia From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 11966 posts, RR: 62
Reply 20, posted (9 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 5801 times:

Quoting Luv2fly (Reply 18):
Just because they are hirring not all the FA's are going to be new hires, they do have seniot FA's as well.

Again, nobody said they were all new FAs at WN. Of course there are still many FAs at WN who have stuck around for decades because it's such a great place to work. But, the proportion of FAs at WN who are junior is -- almost certainly -- much higher than at AA or UA because those airlines have laid off all the junior people in the last few years while WN has been hiring all new, junior FAs. Thus, as I said earlier, the average seniority of a WN FA is lower than that of AA or UA.

Generally speaking on this whole topic, though:

I, personally, feel that the next 5-10 years (out to about 2015) is going to be the most difficult and challenging period in history for the LCCs. This is for a couple of reasons.

First, the "high cost" airlines are not quite as high cost anymore. Their cost structures are still well above most LCCs, and always will be. But, it used to be that AA, UA, US, etc. had unit operating costs almost twice as high as the LCCs. Now, they are all within 1-2 cents of most LLCs. In addition, they can still generate a revenue premium in a large (although shrinking) number of domestic markets, and still garner very high revenue premiums on international -- and particularly intercontinental -- routings because they face very little low fare competition. As a result, the biggest single problem the legacies had five years ago, their extremely high costs, is beginning to become less and less of an issue.

The second reason I think that LCCs are going to have an enormous challenging difficult time in the next 5-10 years is because fo the gross overcapacity they are introducing into the market today and will in the future. They are ordering airplanes in batches of 50 or 60 at a time, and all of these planes are going to have to go somewhere. LCCs for years have tried, generally, to not bump into the legacy carries so as not to piss them off. Now, that's changed, they have the power and are running completely over the legacies. But, pretty soon, they are going to start running into each other. We are already seeing it with B6 and WN at BWI and PHL, and with DH along the east coast. This is going to be a new challenge for all of them, especially considering that some of these airlines are anticipating receiving over 100 new airplanes in the next few years. IMO, that is just way too many planes and they are never going to be able to find places to fly them fast enough, if for no other reason, than because of ATC problems. Either way, I think that in a few years, most LCCs are going to be drowning in the own overcapacity and will face serious financial challenges when they have to pay for the planes they ordered during a period of rapid growth but won't be able to finance then because their growth rates will have inevitably slowed (20-40% ASM growth YOY is just simply unsustainable, IMO).

Bottom line: I think that anyone writing the eulogy of legacy carriers -- in general -- is being way too premature. Will some legacy carriers go away? Almost certainly. Over time, the market will naturally rightsize the number of legacy carriers that it needs. IMO, the U.S. can probably support 4, and maybe 5, legacy carriers, but not 6. But, by the same token, I also think that while the LCCs are all riding high now, the time will come when their will be a natural weeding out process of them, too. Right now, they are all growing at astronomical rates (the notable exception being WN, who very smartly and conservatively restricts itself to generally less than 10% YOY ASM growth) and this growth is what is sustaining their finances and helping fund aircraft orders, etc. Once this growth slows, they are going to have to become much more nimble and conservative with capacity. In the end, a more conservatively growing group of LCC airlines and a group of more innovative, lower-cost legacy carriers will learn to coexist in an atmosphere less volatile than at the present.

I apologize for the length; just my $.02.


User currently offlineAa757first From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 3350 posts, RR: 7
Reply 21, posted (9 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 5731 times:

Quoting Luv2fly (Reply 10):
Oh the tired arguments about the 190's going to be the down fall of B6!

I said I don't think jetBlue will die because of it. But, are you telling me operating two types of aircraft isn't going to raise costs.

Quoting Apodino (Reply 14):

Aren't WN pilots now among the best paid in the industry? How can you say you are supporting an airline that underpays its employees when they pay many of their employees as well or not better than legacy carriers?

I think they are the best paid 737 pilots in the industry.

1st Year Captain American: $26,880
1st Year Captain AirTran: $85,680
1st Year Captain Delta: $111,540
1st Year Captain US Airways: $21,600
1st Year Captain Miami Air: $53,760
1st Year Captain Southwest: $149,760

5th Year Captain American: $115,200
5th Year Captain AirTran: $100,800
5th Year Captain Delta: $115,440
5th Year Captain US Airways: $100,224
5th Year Captain Miami Air: $73,080
5th Year Captain Southwest: $157,248

Top Year Captain American: $121,344
Top Year Captain AirTran: $128,520
Top Year Captain Delta: $121,680
Top Year Captain US Airways: $108,000
Top Year Captain Miami Air: $98,280
Top Year Captain Southwest: $170,352

AAndrew


User currently offlineDtwclipper From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 22, posted (9 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 5670 times:

I find it very interesting that B707Stu starts this flame bait thread and disappears!

Do a little search on some of his other comments....the guy has a thing for the legacy carriers.




"And maybe it'll force NW to get some real customer service then."

"It's not a surprise really. Delta hired, about 1 year ago the PEterson group to help them prepare for bankruptcy. It looks like we're one step closer. Very sad news"


User currently offlineCasInterest From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 4786 posts, RR: 3
Reply 23, posted (9 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 5645 times:

DTWClipper,
Not to fan the flames, but I'll be honest, and you can probably find it in an AA thread, the legacies have gone to H E L L. I flew American to Hawaii on my honeymoon, and to be honest if Southwest flew to Hawaii, it couldn't have been much if any worse. No frills, buy on board, And I didn't pay cheaply for those tickets. Nope in my opinion the big guys that are struggling are doing so for a multitude of reasons. However customer service is taking the biggest hit on AA , DL, US AIR and, from what I have seen lately, NW as well. I actually look upon the service I have gotten on FLYI as steller compared to these companies.
The legacies may have been around for awhile, but thier recent behavior has not only sunk them to the levels of the LCC's. but below it.



Older than I just was ,and younger than I will soo be.
User currently offlineBurnsie28 From United States of America, joined Aug 2004, 7564 posts, RR: 8
Reply 24, posted (9 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 5627 times:

Quoting Aa757first (Reply 21):
I think they are the best paid 737 pilots in the industry.

1st Year Captain American: $26,880
1st Year Captain AirTran: $85,680
1st Year Captain Delta: $111,540
1st Year Captain US Airways: $21,600
1st Year Captain Miami Air: $53,760
1st Year Captain Southwest: $149,760

5th Year Captain American: $115,200
5th Year Captain AirTran: $100,800
5th Year Captain Delta: $115,440
5th Year Captain US Airways: $100,224
5th Year Captain Miami Air: $73,080
5th Year Captain Southwest: $157,248

Top Year Captain American: $121,344
Top Year Captain AirTran: $128,520
Top Year Captain Delta: $121,680
Top Year Captain US Airways: $108,000
Top Year Captain Miami Air: $98,280
Top Year Captain Southwest: $170,352

AAndrew

Your numbers are not accurate, why, because nobody can be a first year captain, nobody just comes to the airline and becomes a captain, that essentually is what those numbers are.



"Some People Just Know How To Fly"- Best slogan ever, RIP NW 1926-2009
25 AirTran737 : I believe those numbers are based on what a cpatain would make in his first year as a captain.
26 Gilligan : When I can board a WN a/c and fly direct to europe, latin america, or the far east, I will feel that the airline I presently work for is in trouble.
27 Burnsie28 : Nope its the year in which they are at the company, not their first year as a captain. My dad is a captain, and I can tell you that the above numbers
28 Coa764 : It just goes on and on, LLC vs. Legacy the age old argument of the arm chair airline enthusiast on A-net. Threads entitled "Why I think Jetblue is ju
29 Luv2fly : HELLO! And this concept is wrong why??????????????????????
30 Aa757first : I'm pretty sure it depends on the airline. Some airlines have "company seniority which is for vacation accrual and reduction of force, and some have
31 Coa764 : HELLO! I never eluded to the fact that the concept is flawed but merely expressing that Jetblue makes a profit because they choose to do so. I was als
32 Dtwclipper : Let me quote myselfe from a thread I started, linked to this but no one decided to read: I don't want to start a flame war here, but there is a point
33 B707Stu : First of all, I didn't disappear. I was sleeping all day after a long weekend away at a staff person's wedding. Secondly, my history is very very pro
34 B707Stu : Thank you for your thoughtful post.
35 Notbluejet : There is no point to continue on. This must be the 100th argument of this nature. Personally I think Jetblue is a big thorn in the side of legacy carr
36 B707Stu : I wrote this thread purely from a marketing/business innovative perspective. The airline industry market, since deregulation, has shifted and wained.
37 BOS2LAF : I forsee jetblue finding itself in a tricky situation (...for lack of better words) in the future. From what I've heard, B6 had been VERY seriously lo
38 Beno : Anywhere outside of the USA.
39 FA4B6 : This is absolutly silly. What would the clause be? "In case you ever start an airline you cannot fly to PHL PIT or CLT if Southwest has already start
40 Ejmmsu : Well, there are some things you have to keep in mind about the E190's and JetBlue's use of them. They will be operating what is arguably the most eff
41 B707Stu : Very true. But of course the JetBlue thread is about domestic US service. I'm not sure if you've visited lately but that type of service has long bee
42 WDBRR : Here is something to note.....Delta is dropping JFK-RSW on 09/06/05, the only other airline that flies this route is Jetblue !!!!
43 Mrocktor : And the legacy airlines are charities? That is one of the most nonsensical arguments ever! It has been years since deregulation, any airline that is
44 Douglas7Seas : I cannot see a great deal of difference in service between the "legacy carriers" and Southwest. I have no experience with Jet Blue so... Back in the d
45 Luv2fly : This was in effect only after he left WN and before he started up B6, this is no longer in effect.
46 Luv2fly : B6 has said numerous times that until they can fly into ORD they have no interest in MDW at this time.
47 Post contains images Elagabal : Whoever said you had to fly a US carrier when travelling internationally? International carriers certainly compete with one another - and this will i
48 JetBluefan1 : From what I've heard, B6 had been VERY seriously looking into PIT, PHL, and CLT. So far WN has beat them to the punch in PIT and PHL, and theres some
49 Post contains links Bicoastal : B707Stu...your assumption that none of the legacies offer the service or friendly/helpful crews that you experienced on JetBlue is just wrong. For exa
50 Lightsaber : But my most energetic/enthusiastic employee is over 70! There is a hell of a lot more to motivation and happiness than age. So your saying that which
51 BOS2LAF : There is some sort of indirect non-compete clause that is still in effect. This is just what I was told by someone I consider to be a very knowledgea
52 Tango-Bravo : Jet Blue, Southwest and Air Tran will not take down any of the legacy carriers. They don't need to nor do they have any such agenda nor could any LCC
53 Luv2fly : Simple answer, YES!
54 Luv2fly : That is so off the wall I am not sure I would even repeat that. "If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, it is a duck!". Yes when WN let him go
55 Richierich : PErsonally I think this is silly. JetBlue has not "taken down" any legacy majors and I don't think it is fair to say that the woes of Delta, American
56 FA4B6 : He's also said that unless ATA goes out of business completely, ORD is the Chicago airport we want to fly to. And A LOT of it! No there is isn't. It'
57 Boeing7E7 : What kind of innovation are you hoping for? Elimination of regional routes and service only to the major city centers? Costs have been cut as far as
58 N737AF : None. They will not take down any legacy carriers. They have a nice niche, but as long as others price is the same, they'll have company. N737AF
59 Post contains images PlanesNTrains : Well, what's good for the goose is good for the gander. If it's okay for you to fly within your budget, then it's okay for me, or anyone else. Or are
60 Aa757first : As others have said, that was immediately after the Morris Air merger with Southwest. For five years he could not serve in an offical capacity at a c
61 Midway2AirTran : Technology is important, but has done nothing to help carriers such as Delta who have some of the best technology available to the passenger and empl
62 Padcrasher : Who took down Southeast and ATA and Midway and Vanguard?
63 Luvfa : That is totally not true! The only non-compete clause that Neeleman signed was for the 5 year period after he left Southwest. That is why JB started
64 Boeing7E7 : The technology is an FAA problem. Improve Airspace efficiency and the game changes. Not Amtrak, nor will it be. You'd be surprised how vital those sm
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