Kkfla737 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 1033 posts, RR: 1 Posted (9 years 11 months 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 4822 times:
For the life of me I still don't understand the TWA/Pan Am route swap of 1975. I have always been under the impression that Pan Am gave up access to southern european points (such as Madrid, Paris and Rome) while TWA gave up access to points such as Frankfurt. Looking at timetables from early 1978 for both airlines PA in fact did serve Rome from New York as did TWA (TWA also flew nonstop to Rome from Boston) , did fly to Madrid albeit from Miami instead of New York and Boston where TWA flew from, and to Paris from London on a connector flight wihich allowed PA passengers bound for Heathrow to connect to Paris. TWA flew from Paris nonstop to New York, Chicago, Boston and Washington. TWA did fly to Frankfurt from Boston, while PA continued to serve the Boston-Heathrow route I though they had given up in the route swap. I did notice that cities such as Istanbul, Ankara, Tehran, Damasucus and Delhi were exclusive Pan Am cities while Cairo, Casbalanca, Athens and Milan were exclusive TWA cities. They both served Bombay and Bahrain, again something I though was not permitted under the 1975 deal.
Also, was their a similar unwritten arragement between Pan Am and Braniff for Latin American routes? PA and Braniff served almost enitrely an different set of cities in Latin America from primary gateways in Miami and New York.
Dutchjet From Netherlands, joined Oct 2000, 7864 posts, RR: 56
Reply 1, posted (9 years 11 months 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 4791 times:
You certainly got the basics of the TWA/PA deal correct - this deal was entered into (with the permission of governmental authorities) in an attempt to deal with the oil embargo of that period (I thought that the deal was a bit earlier than 1975, I could be wrong) and Pan Am dropped service to many southern European cities (such as Paris, Madrid, etc) while TWA dropped service to cities like Frankfurt which was a major Pan Am station. My memory is that LHR routes were not affected. TWA also dropped its round-the world service (with 707s) that operated via Bombay, HongKong, Guam and Honolulu (I think Tapei and Okinawa were served on some flights) as part of the deal. Many routes were also dropped by both airlines to destinations around this period, ie, service on both Pan Am and TWA to cities in the Benelux and Scandic countries was very limited. Over time, Pan Am and TWA did begin to re-instate some service that they traded away - TW wanted to get back in Frankfurt, and Pan Am started the Paris route (which continued to TLV - which until then was an exclusive TW city) and I would say by the early 1980s, both airlines were more or less dropped the agreement.
Concerning South America, remember that the Braniff routes originated with PANAGRA, a seperate airline that was jointly owned by Pan Am and the Grace Shipping line - PANAGRA focused on western South American cities with a major hub in Panama City while Pan Am was stronger in countries like Brazil, Argentina and Venezuala. The route systems did not overlap since, back in those days, there was very restrictive agreements concerning flights and generally only one US carrier could fly on a given route....also, those days were long before lots of long range aircraft were available and flights jumped from city to city. Different times with far less people travelling. The PANAGRA routes went to Braniff, then Eastern, and then American and are the basis for AA's huge operation to Latin America (AA acquired caribbean routes from Tran-Caribbean Airlines in a seperate deal that pre-dated the Eastern deal.)
DETA737 From United States of America, joined Oct 2000, 613 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (9 years 11 months 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 4769 times:
The route swap was a series of deals between the two carriers due to the increase in oil prices at the time that made many of their services unprofitable. TWA gave up it's worldwide services, meaning it stopped service to Honolulu, Guam, Okinawa, Taipei, Hong Kong, Bangkok and Bombay. Also TWA gave up all services to Frankfurt. In addition service to London was suspended from IAD and limited through services from SFO and DTW.
Pan Am for its part gave up all service from Boston and Chicago across the Atlantic. This meant abandoning Pan Am's BOS-PDL-LIS-CMN and BOS-PDL-LIS-BCN and JFK-PDL-LIS-BCN services. As part of the agreement could still serve it's SJU and MIA to Madrid flights, since Pan Am had never served MAD from either JFK or BOS. So Pan Am effectively pulled out of Barcelona, Casablanca, Lisbon, Paris. Rome was never part of the route swap.
There was also another route swap in 1975, between American Airlines and Pan Am. American gave up its Australian and South Pacific routes which had been inaugurated in 1970 and Pan Am gave over many Caribbean flights to AA.
Since the deal was only temporary, TWA resumed service to FRA in 1978 and Pan Am to Paris in 1980 when it took over National's routes from MIA. Throughout the 1980s both carriers began flying to cities in Europe that had originally been in each other's domain. For instance TWA began flying to Scandinavia, the Low Countries, German cities. Pan Am for its part began service to Athens, Madrid (from JFK), Milan, Tel Aviv just to name a few cities.
The situation with Braniff and Pan Am was because Braniff bought Panagra which was originally a Pan Am subsidiary that flew the Andean routes or Western South America in 1967. Most of these agreements weren't unwritten but written in stone. This was a different time before free skies when airlines couldn't just file an application with the DOT for service to a new foreign city. International airline service was highly regulated meaning foreign governments signed bilateral treaties regulating the amount of carriers on a route, the number of frequencies, the size of the aircraft used, the fares etc. Even if Pan Am wanted to start service to Lima in 1980 it probably wouldn't have been allowed to do so.
PanAm747 From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 4242 posts, RR: 8
Reply 5, posted (9 years 11 months 21 hours ago) and read 4479 times:
I would also recommend http://www.airchive.com with its extensive series of route maps. There's a bit of an explanation of the route switch there as well (although it has been outstandingly explained here!).
Pan Am:The World's Most Experienced Airline - P(oor) S(ailor's) A(irline): San Diego's Hometown Airline-Catch Our Smile!
Kkfla737 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 1033 posts, RR: 1
Reply 6, posted (9 years 11 months 20 hours ago) and read 4428 times:
Quoting DETA737 (Reply 2): Even if Pan Am wanted to start service to Lima in 1980 it probably wouldn't have been allowed to do so.
Interesting- that's probably why even though Eastern and Pan Am competteed vigorously on some routes out of Miami on other routes they didn't competet at all. There were Eastern cities and Pan Am cities.