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YVR And Flights To Europe...  
User currently offlineAvianca From Venezuela, joined Jan 2005, 5925 posts, RR: 40
Posted (9 years 2 months 3 weeks 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 8889 times:

why has yvr just 3 european mainline-airlines? BA,LH,KL (yvr has some charters too condor, thomas cook, martinair) but also only from the countrys where the first mentioned airlines are from.

why are there no flights with af, sk, os, az for example, ?

regards


Colombia es el Mundo Y el Mundo es Colombia
66 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 32785 posts, RR: 72
Reply 1, posted (9 years 2 months 3 weeks 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 8861 times:

Quoting Avianca (Thread starter):
why has yvr just 3 european mainline-airlines? BA,LH,KL (yvr has some charters too condor, thomas cook, martinair) but also only from the countrys where the first mentioned airlines are from.

why are there no flights with af, sk, os, az for example, ?

It's not that big a market. There is a lot of local traffic to London and Amsterdam, though.

Vancouver's European service (and international service in general) is excellent for a city of it's size. Few cities the size of Vancouver have so much inter-continental service.

[Edited 2005-06-29 00:43:36]


a.
User currently offlineAvianca From Venezuela, joined Jan 2005, 5925 posts, RR: 40
Reply 2, posted (9 years 2 months 3 weeks 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 8833 times:

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 1):
It's not that big a market. There is a lot of local traffic to London and Amsterdam, though.

I understand that YVR is not on the toplist of AZ, but for AF ? CDG is totally underserved from YVR, i think they are getting only some flights on AirTransat...



Colombia es el Mundo Y el Mundo es Colombia
User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 32785 posts, RR: 72
Reply 3, posted (9 years 2 months 3 weeks 4 days ago) and read 8814 times:

Quoting Avianca (Reply 2):
I understand that YVR is not on the toplist of AZ, but for AF ? CDG is totally underserved from YVR, i think they are getting only some flights on AirTransat...

Low-yield. Air Canada has tried YVR-CDG in the past.

And, as I said, Vancouver is very well served for a city of its size to Europe. Very, very well served.



a.
User currently offlineAvianca From Venezuela, joined Jan 2005, 5925 posts, RR: 40
Reply 4, posted (9 years 2 months 3 weeks 4 days ago) and read 8800 times:

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 3):
Low-yield. Air Canada has tried YVR-CDG in the past.

And, as I said, Vancouver is very well served for a city of its size to Europe. Very, very well served.

intresting to hear that, because flights with ba, kl and lh are mostly fully boked, also in premium cabin.



Colombia es el Mundo Y el Mundo es Colombia
User currently offlineBoeing744 From Canada, joined Jun 2005, 1835 posts, RR: 23
Reply 5, posted (9 years 2 months 3 weeks 4 days ago) and read 8770 times:

Wish we had more European airlines, but FRA, LHR, AMS are quite good considering FRA and LHR are served 2+ times a day each.

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 3):
And, as I said, Vancouver is very well served for a city of its size to Europe. Very, very well served.

Vancouver is actually quite large if you consider the size and population of the outlying areas (Surrey, Richmond, Abbotsford, Delta, White Rock etc.), as well as Van. Island and Northern Washington. True we don't need a lot more cities but I think CDG would be nice. Although AC tried it, it may do better with AF good for business travelers connecting in Europe etc.


User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 32785 posts, RR: 72
Reply 6, posted (9 years 2 months 3 weeks 4 days ago) and read 8751 times:

Quoting Boeing744 (Reply 5):
Vancouver is actually quite large if you consider the size and population of the outlying areas (Surrey, Richmond, Abbotsford, Delta, White Rock etc.), as well as Van. Island and Northern Washington.

All of British Colombia has less people than Miami, Dallas, Houston, and Atlanta, among other cities.

Nothing against Vancouver. The fact that it has so much intercontinental service for a city of its size is quite a distinction. The city definitley feels bigger than it is.



a.
User currently offlineBoeing744 From Canada, joined Jun 2005, 1835 posts, RR: 23
Reply 7, posted (9 years 2 months 3 weeks 4 days ago) and read 8736 times:

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 6):
The city definitley feels bigger than it is.

I agree with you there, very spread out.


User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 32785 posts, RR: 72
Reply 8, posted (9 years 2 months 3 weeks 4 days ago) and read 8743 times:

Quoting Boeing744 (Reply 7):
Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 6):
The city definitley feels bigger than it is.

I agree with you there, very spread out.

That's not what I meant. Vancouver is very dense and has a "big city" cosmopolitan feel that you won't get in US cities of similar size, like Cleveland, St. Louis, and Kansas City, and even cities more than double Vancouver's size, like Houston, Dallas, and Detroit.



a.
User currently offlineDYK From Canada, joined Jul 2004, 407 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (9 years 2 months 3 weeks 4 days ago) and read 8742 times:

"why has yvr just 3 European mainline-airlines? BA,LH,KL (YVR has some charters too condor, thomas cook, martinair) but also only from the countrys where the first mentioned airlines are from.

why are there no flights with af, sk, os, az for example, ?"

to answer your question " Canadian Government and the CTA"

Destinations Vancouver needs: CDG/ZRH/DUB maybe MOW.

CDG may have been low yield 8 years ago but I think some things have changed and more biz traffic in and out of YVR into Europe compared to 8 years ago



AC,CP,PW,WD,ND,UA,AA,NW,CO,DL,WA,AS,QX,PR,SQ,AI,TG,MH,JL,9W,IC,UL,PG,BW,NZ,QF,DJ,BA,LH,KL,OA,OS,ME,RJ,HA,AQ
User currently offline2travel2know From Panama, joined Apr 2005, 3580 posts, RR: 4
Reply 10, posted (9 years 2 months 3 weeks 4 days ago) and read 8728 times:

YVR - MAN could be nice to see someday.
Who would venture in such a route, I don't know.



I don't work for COPA Airlines!
User currently offlineHKGKaiTak From Australia, joined Jun 2005, 1050 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (9 years 2 months 3 weeks 4 days ago) and read 8714 times:

As people above have said before YVR is just far too small to sustain longhaul services to Europe - if I were AC I'd get them to fly to YYZ or YUL and then fly onto Europe, and there are no nearby cities to feed off. In reality it is also too close to SEA to capture any of the market south of the border.

YVR is doing well as an Asian hub (big Asian population) and of course us Aussies with the AC services to SYD.



4 Engines 4 LongHaul
User currently offlineENCRJ From Italy, joined Nov 2004, 99 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (9 years 2 months 3 weeks 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 8695 times:

I traveled a lot to YVR when I was a child. I remember
AF operated a flight to Paris at that time (86/87). Am I right?


User currently offlineCpair 4 life From Canada, joined Nov 1999, 209 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (9 years 2 months 3 weeks 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 8706 times:

Just on the LHR route today

3 x AC flights

2 x BA flights

I have seen zoom flying to places like glasgow, manchester and Air transat, my travel to gatwick.

Lots of flights to the U.K.


User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 32785 posts, RR: 72
Reply 14, posted (9 years 2 months 3 weeks 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 8652 times:

Quoting 2travel2know (Reply 10):
YVR - MAN could be nice to see someday.
Who would venture in such a route, I don't know.

Already flown by Air Transat, 2x weekly.

Sundays routed YVR-MAN-GLA-YVR and Thursdays routes YVR-YYC-MAN-YYC-YVR.



a.
User currently offlineRCS763AV From Colombia, joined Jun 2004, 4395 posts, RR: 12
Reply 15, posted (9 years 2 months 3 weeks 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 8571 times:

Vancouver only has like 2.5 milkion people. But there are like 10 daily flights from YVR to europe. Its very well served for a city that size, i mean, it gets more traffic then Cincinnati wihich is a big Delta hub and in terms of flights BOG and LIM (BOG gets about 4 daily and LIM like 3) and the cities have about 8 million inhabitants each...(i know were poorer but just to make an example)


Les escribo desde el frío de mi verde altiplano.
User currently offlineLaxintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 25392 posts, RR: 49
Reply 16, posted (9 years 2 months 3 weeks 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 8566 times:

Besides being a relatively small population base one needs to remember the market is also quite seasonal with a strong summer peak and a lengthy winter valley. As a result of this European yields from British Colombia are marginal at best.
If anything like mentioned by others, YVR is actually overserved, particularly with connections to London which on their own exceed what would be expected from similar sized North American cities.

As a comparison look at Seattle just to the south of Vancouver. With a metro population of 3.5 million people it is only serviced by 3 daily European flights. BA to LHR, SK to CPH and NW to AMS.



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlineBigGSFO From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 2924 posts, RR: 6
Reply 17, posted (9 years 2 months 3 weeks 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 8530 times:

Quoting HKGKaiTak (Reply 11):
In reality it is also too close to SEA to capture any of the market south of the border.

Is there a lot of cross border passengers going to YVR from Seattle and vice versa? Are fares YVR-LHR lower than SEA-LHR as a whole? It seems YVR has more of an intertnational presence even though the Seattle metro area has more people.

Would that be because YVR is Canada's only west coast gateway?


User currently offlineDYK From Canada, joined Jul 2004, 407 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (9 years 2 months 3 weeks 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 8538 times:

"Besides being a relatively small population base one needs to remember the market is also quite seasonal with a strong summer peak and a lengthy winter valley. As a result of this European yields from British Colombia are marginal at best.
If anything like mentioned by others, YVR is actually overserved, particularly with connections to London which on their own exceed what would be expected from similar sized North American cities.

As a comparison look at Seattle just to the south of Vancouver. With a metro population of 3.5 million people it is only serviced by 3 daily European flights. BA to LHR, SK to CPH and NW to AMS"

Very interesting remark but not sure it is the case. The lengthy winter valley is old news as the winter valley has gone from 6 months to a period between Mid November and Mid December. I think one would see this if you flew out of Vancouver even in January or Feb that seat can be hard to find. There are large amount of Europeans which spend there skiing vacation in WEstern Canada and the flights are usually packed with skiers. Also despite its small population base you have many Europeans/Australians/SOuth Africans that commute or live part of the year in Vancouver, Also Vancouver has a very large ethnic population particularly Iranian and Indians which typically vacation in there countries in Jan, Feb, Mar. Not to seem sensitive but I think to many of you out there underestimate Vancouver!



AC,CP,PW,WD,ND,UA,AA,NW,CO,DL,WA,AS,QX,PR,SQ,AI,TG,MH,JL,9W,IC,UL,PG,BW,NZ,QF,DJ,BA,LH,KL,OA,OS,ME,RJ,HA,AQ
User currently offlineSQuared From Canada, joined May 2005, 387 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (9 years 2 months 3 weeks 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 8486 times:

Quoting Laxintl (Reply 16):
If anything like mentioned by others, YVR is actually overserved, particularly with connections to London which on their own exceed what would be expected from similar sized North American cities.

Generally speaking, Canadian cities have more flights to Europe than comparable-sized American Cities. It's not the fact that they are overserved, but rather the links between Canada and Europe are stronger than US-Europe links.

For instance YYC, which has a population of around 1 million, certainly has more flights to Europe (FRA, LHR) than OKC a similarly sized city.

Cities like YYT (pop. 170,000) have non-stop flights to LHR, granted the flight originates in YHZ (pop. 360,000), but still, the point stands.

In general, I believe some are underestimating YVR's potential. But at the same time I think it's unlikely YVR will get a flight to CDG anytime soon.

SQuared


User currently offline2travel2know From Panama, joined Apr 2005, 3580 posts, RR: 4
Reply 20, posted (9 years 2 months 3 weeks 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 8475 times:

One must take into account that for many flying to a Canadian city via a US hub is - to say the least, specially now - a hassle.
There's a demand for flights to Canada that don't go via USA.

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 14):
Already flown by Air Transat, 2x weekly.
Sundays routed YVR-MAN-GLA-YVR and Thursdays routes YVR-YYC-MAN-YYC-YVR.

Yes, MAN is served from YVR, but do Air Transat twice-weekly passengers fit the passenger profile of those flying daily/almost-daily on BA, KL, LH, AF ?

Quoting HKGKaiTak (Reply 11):
YVR is doing well as an Asian hub (big Asian population) and of course us Aussies with the AC services to SYD.

The aussies I saw having to go thru US inmigration and customs @ YVR in order to fly to SYD on AC because the stop @ HNL, weren't that thrilled about AC service to SYD via HNL, regardless if the US doesn't require aussie passport holders US visas.



I don't work for COPA Airlines!
User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 32785 posts, RR: 72
Reply 21, posted (9 years 2 months 3 weeks 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 8440 times:

Quoting 2travel2know (Reply 20):
The aussies I saw having to go thru US inmigration and customs @ YVR in order to fly to SYD on AC because the stop @ HNL, weren't that thrilled about AC service to SYD via HNL, regardless if the US doesn't require aussie passport holders US visas.

Pre-clearing US customs in Canada is a joke, even post-9/11.



a.
User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 32785 posts, RR: 72
Reply 22, posted (9 years 2 months 3 weeks 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 8417 times:

Quoting SQuared (Reply 19):
Generally speaking, Canadian cities have more flights to Europe than comparable-sized American Cities. It's not the fact that they are overserved, but rather the links between Canada and Europe are stronger than US-Europe links.

That's a very small part of the equation, if even true.

It mostly has to do with the fact that Canada has fewer dense population centers and that the US has a lot more.

Calgary, for example, is a small city, though it is the heart of the Middle Proviences and the key transportation hub for the area.

Canada has only two large trans-Atlantic gateways - Montreal and Toronto. Then you have a few daily flights from Vancouver and Calgary, the daily London flights to Toronto and St. John's, and the rest is all holiday flights.

If Calgary were located in the triangle between Dallas, Chicago, and Denver, London passengers would have to connect too*.

*Okay, maybe not the best example. Since Calgary is a huge oil town, they would probably at least have one trans-Atlantic flight on it's own merit, but I think one can get my gist.

[Edited 2005-06-29 05:25:00]


a.
User currently offlineACDC8 From Canada, joined Mar 2005, 7642 posts, RR: 35
Reply 23, posted (9 years 2 months 3 weeks 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 8388 times:

Quoting Boeing744 (Reply 5):
Wish we had more European airlines, but FRA, LHR, AMS are quite good considering FRA and LHR are served 2+ times a day each.

Who flies the second FRA flight? I only recall LH493. Or did you count charters as well (since they're only seasonal)?



A Grumpy German Is A Sauerkraut
User currently offlineETStar From Canada, joined Jan 2004, 2103 posts, RR: 7
Reply 24, posted (9 years 2 months 3 weeks 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 8347 times:

Something to remember is that YVR is already served by airlines that belong to all three alliances, and as you know, they codeshare with eachother and eliminate the need to compete if it's not required. BA does it on its own to LHR (did it with CP), KL is there to AMS, and Air Canada goes to FRA with LH, London on its own metal but also with bmi's code etc. Sometimes if you see the ARR/DEP screens, you will see up to four flights codesharing on a single AC flight, like SAS and bmi and UA and LH. So really, almost no competition, only adequate space, and then rake in the dough.

As for SAS not serving YVR, it already lands at SEA, which is within close proximity, and there is codesharing with AC. AF owns KL, so there. Zurich is served by Balair or whatever outfit took over. JMC and Condor recently upped their services, which is cool. Please don't flame if I don't know JMC's current name, cause European charter airlines change names like underwear.

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 21):
Pre-clearing US customs in Canada is a joke, even post-9/11.

How is it a joke? Care to elaborate? I don't remember 'laughing' at any of the Canada-based US immigration stations, namely YVR, YYC and YYZ.


25 ACB777 : If AC got the 787, would a YVR-CDG route a few times a week in the summer be profitable? I believe that LH should increase seat capacity in the summer
26 DYK : My prediction next 5 years, we will see year round flight to Europe YVR-CDG either AC/TN/AF YVR-DUS with LT YVR-MUC with LH YVR-MOW with SU possbly YV
27 MAH4546 : Already flown. Attempeted in the summer of 2004. Good loads, terrible yields. Did not resume. Will never happen, especially with Aeroflot at Seattle.
28 ACDC8 : I think he meant year round and not just seasonal.
29 FLYYUL : LTU doesnt fly year-round to anywhere in North America safe for South Florida.
30 YULMRS : No, KLM is already flying it from AMS ... AF won't fly from CDG, AC already has flights to CDG from YYZ and YUL, enough for them. May be a service to
31 Post contains images STARalliance24 : I think they might have Emirates come to Vancouver too. Correct me if I'm wrong.
32 Aircanada333 : I think South African Airways is planning to go to YVR via LHR too. If they do, I think they will start in 2006.
33 FLYYUL : Oh cmon now. South African to YVR? Some rumours are just way too silly.
34 GLAGAZ : What about Zoom? YVR to GLA,LGW,MAN Gaz
35 Avianca : what about a 7/7 service with AC 767(200 or 300) ?? to MUC
36 Avianca : I travelled last week on DE flight from YVR to FRA. flight was fully booked also the flight FRA-YVR 2 weeks ago was full. The LH flight is a horror fo
37 STARalliance24 : I think Air Transat goes to one of those destinations, but I'm not sure.
38 Aircanada333 : [quote=Avianca,reply=35]what about a 7/7 service with AC 767(200 or 300) ?? to MUC[ AC is already going to MUC from Toronto I dont think that they are
39 Avianca : yes but yyz is a totally another storry than yvr.
40 Aircanada333 : From YVR Air Transat is going to FRA, LGW, AMS, MAN and GLA.
41 Aircanada333 : Yes this is true.
42 YULWinterSkies : More flights for winter 2010 maybe? Yes, for the Olympic Games... Some flights from MUC, ZRH, OSL and other snowy places might be expectable, although
43 ACDC8 : There's alot of potential traffic between YVR and Europe in the summer months, but in the winter, things completely drop. With the exception of the ma
44 Avianca : I can imagine many many charter flights for 2010, daily extra flights from europe and asia.
45 Sea744 : Some of the traffic from YVR originates and terminates in Seattle as well (there are many flights and bus and rail service between the two cities). BA
46 Post contains images Sea744 : Oh and I forgot that SU has flights from SEA to Moscow as well
47 ACDC8 : What about the border crossing? That alone can take up to 3 hours. Or do buses get priority?
48 DYK : Some very interesting comments but I really do think Vancouver is underestimated and underserved particularly from Europe. There has been some interes
49 Sea744 : I have never spent 3 hours at the border. People go to SEA all the time. There is even direct bus service between the two airports 4-5 times per day.
50 FLYYUL : DYK, Your living a pipe-dream.. come back down. Even if flights are full, Canada remains a relatively low-yield market... especially Vancouver where t
51 AC787 : More airlines should serve YVR so that more ppl can experience how great a city it rlly is. Was just checking the schedual of flights between SEA/PDX-
52 FLYYUL : Alaska and America west have Vancouver-San Diego nonstops.
53 DYK : FLYYUL I dont think so, you out of touch with the YVR market. KLM and Lufthansa biz class is operating on average about 80% full. It if it was such a
54 MAH4546 : If it was such a high yield market, then why does Lufthansa have their FRA-YVR flight operated by Condor twice a week? And why do they often send A34
55 Spyderz : First off Vancouver-Europe flights are do not receive heavy premium traffic as has been argued. One, if not both, of Air Canada's 767-300 flights to L
56 ACDC8 : DE flies to YVR during the summer months on top of the daily LH flight from FRA. The 744 is used during the summer months and the A340 in the winter.
57 ACB777 : On what day of the week is the 1 weekly 340-300? I checked the AC timetable and I don't believe I saw a YVR-LHR flight operated by an A343. What is t
58 Spyderz : It shows up as an A340 for AC830 on July 22nd. Usually this flight is a 767-300, yet I believe this one-of situation is for maintenance since also on
59 Avianca : thats not correct, all 747-200 had 3 classes, first was relativ small I think 8 seats in the upper deck. regards
60 MAH4546 : Not currently, the LH service is temporarily 5x a week. It goes back up to daily in a week, IIRC. In 2002, MP operated the service on KLM's behalf on
61 ACDC8 : According the the LH timetables... effective March 27 Vancouver (YVR) to Frankfurt (FRA) LH493 Daily B744 DE6071 Saturdays B767 (as of May 7) DE2071
62 FLYYUL : DYK, You dont understand that Vancouver is a very long stage length. The yield per mile, is often low in comparison to the eastern seaboard... precise
63 CHI787ORD : I agree. Vancouver feels more like a spread out European version of Chicago or New York. I think the the olympics will put tourism growth really high
64 GuyBetsy1 : Airlines make money on their high yield Business/First Class fares. Hence economy class may be full on their flights but if the front end is not full,
65 Spyderz : Ah, but costs per mile are significantly less for a Vancouver-Amsterdam flight than a Montreal-Amsterdam flight. All the fixed costs in operating a f
66 FLYYUL : Yes.. but the cost of fuel remains the biggest cost incurred. It has now assumed a bigger share of total variable cost. The cost of fuel is rising exp
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