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A380 Entry Into Service (EIS) Reliability - 99%  
User currently offlineAstuteman From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2005, 10111 posts, RR: 97
Posted (9 years 3 months 4 weeks 1 day ago) and read 10157 times:
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Last week's flight International had a superb supplement on the development of the A380 - probably about 20 threads worth.

I thought this one was interesting.

Airbus publicly accepts that the EIS of the A340-600 was not good, and the aircraft is STILL not delivering satisfactory performance.

It is a "stated corporate strategy for the A380 to be mature at EIS"

Airbus has set a despatch reliability target of 99%, which it intends to achieve right from EIS

The aircraft will have an unprecedented level of redundancy to allow "minimum equipmet release" of the aircraft to be much better (won't help the weight, I guess...)

There will be an unprecedented level of additional testing (such as the additional tests which identified the tail strength problem)

Airbus will rather delay the EIS and hit the reliability than have EIS problems (which I guess in part explains the current delays...)

There was lots more detailed stuff, but I thought these headlines would be interesting topics of conversation.

Looks like they're serious.......

110 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineDAYflyer From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 3807 posts, RR: 3
Reply 1, posted (9 years 3 months 4 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 9792 times:

Very smart to get everything right before EIS. I know another company that has the same philosophy......for 60 + years; this almost made it sound as if this were a new concept for Airbus.


One Nation Under God
User currently offlineN79969 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (9 years 3 months 4 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 9758 times:

If they achieve 99% at EIS, that would be a very impressive achievement.

User currently offlineAstuteman From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2005, 10111 posts, RR: 97
Reply 3, posted (9 years 3 months 4 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 9564 times:
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Quoting DAYflyer (Reply 1):
I know another company that has the same philosophy......for 60 + years; .

Boeing, I assume?

Quoting DAYflyer (Reply 1):
this almost made it sound as if this were a new concept for Airbus.

If the A346 is anything to go by, it is...............
Nevertheless, they're taking the right approach.
A


User currently offlineDynkrisolo From United States of America, joined Feb 2001, 1866 posts, RR: 7
Reply 4, posted (9 years 3 months 4 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 9503 times:

Quoting Astuteman (Reply 3):
Quoting DAYflyer (Reply 1):
this almost made it sound as if this were a new concept for Airbus.

If the A346 is anything to go by, it is...............
Nevertheless, they're taking the right approach.

New concept for Airbus? Hardly. They had promised the same EIS reliability for the 346. If they have had so much problems with a derivative based aircraft, why would I believe that they can achieve 99% at EIS with the all-new 380? 98% would be commendable.


User currently offlineCwapilot From United States of America, joined May 2000, 1166 posts, RR: 17
Reply 5, posted (9 years 3 months 4 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 9454 times:

" If they have had so much problems with a derivative based aircraft, why would I believe that they can achieve 99% at EIS with the all-new 380? 98% would be commendable."

Well, it seems that they seem willing to keep pushing the EIS date back until they get it right...kinda like their very "fluid" break-even and profitability points...

"Airbus will rather delay the EIS and hit the reliability than have EIS problems (which I guess in part explains the current delays...)"



Southside Irish...our two teams are the White Sox and whoever plays the Cubs!
User currently offlineFlyAUA From Austria, joined May 2005, 4604 posts, RR: 56
Reply 6, posted (9 years 3 months 4 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 9393 times:

Quoting Astuteman (Thread starter):

Yes I read that as well. Indeed a great supplement. Have 2 or 3 pages left until I can put it on my shelf and claim I've read it all Big grin

Regarding the topic... I am glad they have decided to do it this way. The dispatch reliability for the A346 was not what their target was. It explains why they have had to delay the deliveries as well I guess. Better delay it slightly (and have the media say they want to get it right) than deliver it on time and have the media slag them off (as was the case with the A346). Media attention in both cases is not desirable, but it's better to deliver a "mature" aircraft than an aircraft that still needs updates etc...  thumbsup 

P.S. Watch how this thread will turn into an AvB thread... just my 2 cents  sarcastic 



Not drinking, also isn't a solution!
User currently offlineCwapilot From United States of America, joined May 2000, 1166 posts, RR: 17
Reply 7, posted (9 years 3 months 4 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 9278 times:

"P.S. Watch how this thread will turn into an AvB thread... just my 2 cents"

Why does this quote always pop up whenever a thread has anything other than praises for the infinite wisdom and perfection of Airbus and its sacred cow (or whale)? The only way it will become an AvsB war is if the A cheerleaders with their thin skins cannot accept anything short of A worship. Try discussing it without throwing a hissy fit, and it won't turn into an A vs B war.



Southside Irish...our two teams are the White Sox and whoever plays the Cubs!
User currently offlineIkramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 21544 posts, RR: 59
Reply 8, posted (9 years 3 months 4 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 9251 times:

I wish them luck, but it's going to be very difficult.

Any new airframe with new engines has gremlins, especially since the two test craft will not be identical to the "mass produced" later airframes.



Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
User currently offlineWINGS From Portugal, joined May 2005, 2831 posts, RR: 68
Reply 9, posted (9 years 3 months 4 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 9199 times:

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 8):
I wish them luck, but it's going to be very difficult.

Any new airframe with new engines has gremlins, especially since the two test craft will not be identical to the "mass produced" later airframes.

I totally agree with you on that one. Its going to be very difficult to achieve 99%. But nothing is impossible.

Regards,
Wings



Aviation Is A Passion.
User currently offlineAtmx2000 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 4576 posts, RR: 37
Reply 10, posted (9 years 3 months 4 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 9077 times:

Being a 4 holer using engines derived from 777 engine tech, this would seem to be a challenging goal.


ConcordeBoy is a twin supremacist!! He supports quadicide!!
User currently offlineMariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25424 posts, RR: 86
Reply 11, posted (9 years 3 months 4 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 9042 times:
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Quoting Cwapilot (Reply 7):
The only way it will become an AvsB war is if the A cheerleaders with their thin skins cannot accept anything short of A worship.

Oh, I dunno.

Since the very first reply is in praise of Boeing and thus giving a comparative middle finger to Airbus, I don't think your thesis is valid.

cheers



aeternum nauta
User currently offlineFlyAUA From Austria, joined May 2005, 4604 posts, RR: 56
Reply 12, posted (9 years 3 months 4 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 8999 times:

Quoting Cwapilot (Reply 7):
Why does this quote always pop up whenever a thread has anything other than praises for the infinite wisdom and perfection of Airbus and its sacred cow (or whale)? The only way it will become an AvsB war is if the A cheerleaders with their thin skins cannot accept anything short of A worship. Try discussing it without throwing a hissy fit, and it won't turn into an A vs B war.



Quoting Mariner (Reply 11):
Oh, I dunno.

Since the very first reply is in praise of Boeing and thus giving a comparative middle finger to Airbus, I don't think your thesis is valid.

Mariner, thanks for beating me to it. You stole the words out of my mouth  Wink



Not drinking, also isn't a solution!
User currently offlineBrons2 From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 3015 posts, RR: 4
Reply 13, posted (9 years 3 months 4 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 8956 times:

Apparently Airbus is following the 12 step program.

The first step to recovery (380), is admitting you have a problem (346).

However, I agree with the other poster than even 98% would be a great achievement for a brand new airframe/engine combination. I think mid-90s is more likely for the first year or two.

For those that want to sing B's praises, the original 777 was FUBAR at service entry. The 741's Pratts flat out didn't work. I'm sure there are other examples.



Firings, if well done, are good for employee morale.
User currently offlineGlideslope From United States of America, joined May 2004, 1621 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (9 years 3 months 4 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 8104 times:

The PUBLIC admission of the 346 problems is a HUGE step for Airbus. They obviously have gotten the message that airlines question their peformance claims these days (lack of 380 orders.)

Let's hope they get it right with the 380. The tail strength problems do however make me question some of the engineering. This problem really should not have shown up in flight testing. I for one am glad to see the Pre EIS testing going to such unusual lengths.



To know your Enemy, you must become your Enemy.” Sun Tzu
User currently offlineDeltaMD11 From United States of America, joined Dec 2002, 1701 posts, RR: 34
Reply 15, posted (9 years 3 months 4 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 8015 times:

Glideslope,
Nonetheless the problem is better to have shown up in flight testing then after the aircraft was put into passenger service and something goes wrong, no?



Too often we ... enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought. - John Fitzgerald Kennedy
User currently offlineSWISSER From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 16, posted (9 years 3 months 4 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 7969 times:

At least one company admits that there product is not meeting it's initial goal.
But this is certainly measured to several factors when it is in service on certain airlines demands.


User currently offlineBoeingBus From United States of America, joined May 2004, 1597 posts, RR: 18
Reply 17, posted (9 years 3 months 4 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 7900 times:

Quoting Glideslope (Reply 14):
The PUBLIC admission of the 346 problems is a HUGE step for Airbus.

well, wait a minute here... this admission wasn't first made by Airbus.... you had most A346 orperators admit to these teething issues... Afterwards, we had the media such as Flight International basically do an expose on this A346 issues. Airbus had no choice but to admit this quality issues.

The A380 is using many new systems and technologies and naturally there are going to be issues popping up here and there... happens all the time with new and derivatives... but if it's properly tested as they say they will you most definitly see a better product than the A346.

Airbus is getting better at building aircraft so any under estimation of this company is being very naive. They are no longer an infant at churning out planes.

I'm just tired of posts that basically say Airbus can't build planes and the Boeing is going out of business.

anyhow, just my 2 cents.

Ric



Airbus or Boeing - it's all good to me!
User currently offlineAtmx2000 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 4576 posts, RR: 37
Reply 18, posted (9 years 3 months 4 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 7520 times:

Quoting BoeingBus (Reply 17):
I'm just tired of posts that basically say Airbus can't build planes and the Boeing is going out of business.

I challenge you to find a post that says Airbus can't build planes and Boeing is going out of business.  devil 



ConcordeBoy is a twin supremacist!! He supports quadicide!!
User currently offlineAstuteman From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2005, 10111 posts, RR: 97
Reply 19, posted (9 years 3 months 4 weeks ago) and read 6976 times:
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Quoting Glideslope (Reply 14):
The tail strength problems do however make me question some of the engineering. This problem really should not have shown up in flight testing.

Be careful.
The Flight International article says that the tail strength "problem" was SPECIFICALLY identified as a result of ADDITIONAL ground tests undertaken which imposed "unrepresentative" loads on the structure, prior to first flight (if you look through threads on this site, you'll see this showed up long before A380 flew).

Airbus spent several weeks debating whether to take ANY ACTION AT ALL, as there was strictly no requirement to do so.
The point within the article is that Airbus did take remedial action, because they are focussing on through-life longevity and reliability.

The remedial action, by the way?
To fit 2 kg (yes, a whole 2 Kg) additional reinforcement to the Trimmable Horizontal Stabiliser Actuator (THSA) brackets.

I personally think Airbus should be congratulated for extending the pre-flight testing and proving boundary, in the way that identified the so-called problem in the first place.

If you ever get bored, by the way, go back and look at the vicious anti A380 rhetoric that showed up in the threads of the time on this subject.
Then compare it to the reality described above, from the Flight article.
Enjoy.


User currently offlineUdo From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 20, posted (9 years 3 months 4 weeks ago) and read 6885 times:

Quoting Glideslope (Reply 14):
The PUBLIC admission of the 346 problems is a HUGE step for Airbus. They obviously have gotten the message that airlines question their peformance claims these days (lack of 380 orders.)

Lack of orders? Last time I checked they had 159 firm orders from some of the most respected and profitable airlines - but probably you know more than we all?  Confused

Quoting Glideslope (Reply 14):
The tail strength problems do however make me question some of the engineering. This problem really should not have shown up in flight testing.

What exactly do we all know about that "problem"? You must be in a very comfortable insider position to be able to judge their engineering...  Yeah sure


Regards
Udo


User currently offlineFlyAUA From Austria, joined May 2005, 4604 posts, RR: 56
Reply 21, posted (9 years 3 months 3 weeks 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 6793 times:

Quoting Glideslope (Reply 14):
(lack of 380 orders.)

Well I don't know what you call "lack of orders", but exceeding the breakeven point by more than half, before the aircraft has even been certified, sounds like a nice order book to me!

Quoting Glideslope (Reply 14):
The tail strength problems do however make me question some of the engineering.

You can question all you like. Those ground tests were to demonstrate what would happen beyond normal operational loading/stress. The fact that this happened is irrelevant. Still Airbus decided to take remedial action. The only thing I can do is praise them, not bitch...



Not drinking, also isn't a solution!
User currently offlineN79969 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 22, posted (9 years 3 months 3 weeks 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 6722 times:

I read a second article today that the design would allow an A380 to dispatch with multiple systems broken. (I would assume that in-flight entertainment and meals could be among the systems that can be inoperable--which would make for a long and hellish flight) I am no engineer but I deduce that in order to achieve this goal, certain systems would have to exceed 99% reliability by a statistically signficant margin while other systems could slide.

I read in the same article that the A380 will have two electrically controlled actuator systems thus allowing controllability after a loss of full hydraulics. Is this possible? I wonder if the author captured the idea correctly or not.

[Edited 2005-06-30 13:46:44]

User currently offlineMarBergi From Ireland, joined Aug 2004, 182 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (9 years 3 months 3 weeks 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 6642 times:

Quoting FlyAUA (Reply 21):
Quoting Glideslope (Reply 14):
(lack of 380 orders.)

Well I don't know what you call "lack of orders", but exceeding the breakeven point by more than half, before the aircraft has even been certified, sounds like a nice order book to me!

Did I miss something here   
The last time I checked orders for the A380 were at @ 160 JustPlanes.comand the break even point was edging up past 300. Now my maths may not be the best but I somehow think that you are slightly incorrect. As it stand they are 50% towards reaching breakeven point if that is what you meant. If so I digress, if not you really need a new calculator

[Edited 2005-06-30 14:03:59]

User currently offlineFlyAUA From Austria, joined May 2005, 4604 posts, RR: 56
Reply 24, posted (9 years 3 months 3 weeks 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 6615 times:

Quoting MarBergi (Reply 23):
Did I miss something here
The last time I checked orders for the A380 were at @ 160 JustPlanes.comand the break even point was edging up past 300. Now my maths may not be the best but I somehow think that you are slightly incorrect. As it stand they are 50% towards reaching breakeven point if that is what you meant. If so I digress, if not you really need a new calculator

Excuse me... wrong wording. This is what my brain wanted to say as opposed to what my fingers said:

Well I don't know what you call "lack of orders", but exceeding half of the orders needed to breakeven, before the aircraft has even been certified, sounds like a nice order book to me!

Thanks for spotting that  bigthumbsup 



Not drinking, also isn't a solution!
25 Beauing : Could someone please post a link to the Flight International article?
26 Post contains links Astuteman : If you hit www.flightinternational.com their homepage has a link to the article, including a download request. I subscribe to the hardcopy magazine, a
27 Astuteman : Sorry, should also have said:- or E-mail flight@esco.co.uk (telephone +44 (0) 1371 810433) The article costs £5 UK in hard copy Regards
28 Mham001 : I think you need to consider how many other airliners are apt to order more 380s. Not many more want or need them any time soon. That could of course
29 Post contains images FlyAUA : There are enough airlines out there that are operating their largest aircraft in the fleet and still need more seats for a few routes. I am not sayin
30 Ikramerica : It's a 20 year plan and a 20 year plane, not a 5 year investment. Airbus wanted to be number 1 in size and first to market with the VLA, and so they w
31 Mham001 : Actually, while I can't speak for all analysts, like you have attempted, I can say that several have indeed questioned that 300 number(including one
32 BoeingBus : But its certaintly hasn't been easy for Airbus... Airbus has sold a whopping 5 units for China and 10 for UPS(cancelled 37 A300 - not a great trade-o
33 Post contains images Udo : Expect more to follow. Why can you be so sure? Nothing wrong about that, EK is one very stabile customer Airbus can count on. Totally ridiculous. You
34 RedFlyer : Impressive order backlog before EIS, indeed. However, considering that in 2000 when the program was launched Airbus was claiming a market of ~1400 a/
35 Post contains images FlyAUA : Airbus has built this in response to airline demand. Why would they build something nobody wants to have. Clearly airlines want it otherwise they wou
36 Udo : We shouldn't forget what happened in 2001 and the years after. The airline business has just come back to pre-9/11 levels so I wouldn't draw fast con
37 RedFlyer : I can't argue with that analysis; however, since we are now back to pre-9/11 levels, I would expect the orders to pick up considerably from here on o
38 Udo : 9/11 destroyed many plannings within a very short period of time so airlines have become more careful in placing large orders. Though we are at pre-9
39 RedFlyer : Even though we're back to pre-9/11 levels "it may take some more time"?? Sounds to me like you're trying to cover your bases on the 380, in case it d
40 BlueSky1976 : About time someone admitted to it. They are no longer at A330/A340 level, when they had ZERO experience at building medium sized long haul planes. P.
41 Post contains images Lightsaber : Actually, the engines are less related to the GE-90 than "the Alliance" would have you believe. RR was aggressive with their Trent 900 so during the
42 Zvezda : A dispatch reliability rate of 99% for a quad is impressive at any time. I'll be delighted if Airbus can pull that off within a year of EIS.
43 Astuteman : If by some chance they do hit this, would it have been worthwhile delaying the programme 2-6 months in order to achieve it? By the way, when you look
44 Udo : No. But we have seen several airlines jumping in and ordering the A380 after 9/11. You cannot compare an A380 to most other models due to its massive
45 Post contains links Beauing : There are several big unknowns when discussing the "break even" point for the A380. One is the dollar: "If we fix the euro/dollar rate at EUR 1.30, a
46 RedFlyer : I didn't realize there were so many caveats to Airbus' business model for the 380 to be successful. Based on what you have just said, it seems a lot
47 SE210Caravelle : EIS? Sorry but I'm not nearly as informed as most of you. Thanks in advnace!
48 FlyAUA : Why would any airline purchase aircraft if economic conditions don't allow!? You are not making sense dude! I would be surprised if they sell 1400 un
49 Udo : Don't take "guarantee" too literally. Certain airlines simply wait until they feel there's a constant need for the capacity upgrade. After 9/11 we kn
50 Post contains images FlyAUA : As the title says, Entry Into Service (EIS) Airbus has stated that it will achieve 99% service reliability when the A380 enters service as it is now
51 RedFlyer : You just proved my point, "Dude". Economic conditions are not ripe nor does it look like they will be anytime soon for the 380 to sell anywhere near
52 FlyAUA : Having an opinion is one thing, but telling the future is another. Don't make "nor will they ever be" statements regarding the A380 cus people will j
53 RedFlyer : I never made such a statement. Read my words carefully and quote them exactly as they appear before trying to assign comments to me that I never made
54 Ikramerica : As am I, depending on how success is defined. To a certain degree, the plane was a success the first flight. If it breaks even, it will be seen as "w
55 Zvezda : In terms of dispatch reliability, a quad has twice as many single points of engine failure as a twin and infintessimally less than twice the probabil
56 Post contains images FlyAUA : Et voila: are not ripe nor does it look like they will be Your words quoted exactly as they appear. I rest my case
57 Beauing : I have a very simple definition of success. A truly great airplane must sell at least 1000 copies. Every Boeing commercial jetliner, beginning with t
58 Gigneil : The A330 and A340 are practically the same plane, and will certainly surpass 1000 sales. N
59 DL021 : The A330 and A340 are practically the same plane, and will certainly surpass 1000 sales. Is that not a bit like saying the 757 and 767 are the same ai
60 FlyAUA : According to your definition of a "great airplane", the B717, B767, and B777 do not qualify as great aircraft. Well, I disagree, they're all great! B
61 FlyAUA : The A330/A340 have the same fuselage, the same cockpit, the same cabin layout, and (correct me if I'm wrong) even the same wing. The only things that
62 Beauing : The 767 has already surpassed the 1000 mark. The 717 is not really a Boeing plane, it's a leftover from the MD merger. And as I said, the 777 will br
63 Astuteman : You're right. In the flight article back in April on the A346 EIS, the operators clearly stated that the vast majority of failure were due to fuel, g
64 Post contains images FlyAUA : According to Boeing's Orders & Deliveries part of the website which I just checked, not. Oh ok so the 717 didn't sell well because it wasn't a Boeing
65 LTBEWR : Clearly Airbus wants a very high profile a/c that the A380 is to be extremely reliable from EIS as would be in their best long-term interest for the c
66 Post contains images Udo : Excuse me, but who in the aviation business do you think really cares about what you define as success? Says who? I guess you haven't yet analysed hi
67 N79969 : Actually I think neither Airbus nor A380 customers can afford another 6 month or other significant delay to meet this target. If they can get a dispat
68 Post contains images FlyAUA : His definition of "great airlplane" was of course making the notorious assumption that Boeing was not created many years before Airbus. He can tell t
69 Zvezda : It seems likely that the thousandth B777 will someday be produced, but let us remember that the A350, B787, and B747Adv will all cut into B777 sales
70 Leskova : Current orders, according to Boeing, are 949 - now I don't know how you interpret numbers, but my gut feeling tells me that's less than 1000... Will
71 N79969 : "And that's exactly what they are doing! They have created a system where flight crews can beam down errors via sattelite, while Airbus teams all over
72 Post contains links FlyAUA : This system goes beyond "squawks" PLUS and the logistics behind it are completely different from what has even been used before. Have a look yourself
73 Post contains links Beauing : Here's a clue: You lump the A330 and A340 into one "family" so you can pump up the sales numbers in an attempt to meet my definition of a great airpl
74 Ikramerica : With "only" 929 delivered, it will be very difficult for the 767 to reach 1000 pax models. You might see military/freighter orders pushing it over 10
75 FlyAUA : The A300/310 family has gained 852 orders and did not sell like hotcakes as you imply. Still a good family though seeing that it was Airbus' first. I
76 Beauing : But Douglas was around to offer the DC-8, so the 707 had competition.
77 BlueSky1976 : Funny, 'cuz I'll give it a 80% chance it will sell about 1100 -800 and -900 combined over next 20 years - and this comes based on Boeing market outlo
78 FlyAUA : If I am not mistaken, the B707 started services in 1954 where as the DC-8 started services in 1966. That's a 12 years head-start for Boeing compared
79 Post contains images Zvezda : To say that the B707 was a "great" airplane because it sold 1010 while the B767 is not a "great" airplane because it has sold 949 (929 delivered plus
80 Post contains images Leskova : And you're right, it is not a useful distinction - and as far as I can see, no-one, except Beauing, seems to think it is. There are far more factors
81 Post contains links Beauing : You are mistaken: It's right here on a.net, only a few clicks away. http://www.airliners.net/info/stats.main?id=192
82 Post contains images Udo : First of all it is Airbus which created and has been marketing the aircraft as one family. Second, I couldn't care less about what you call a "defini
83 Beauing : It has nothing to do with reliability at EIS. At post 46 we got off on a discussion of how many A380s they would have to sell to call it a success. A
84 Beauing : Then why do you keep commenting on it? Then why do you keep commenting on it? The great Udo is now telling us what we are free to do and believe. Mar
85 Mariner : So - with the best will in the world - I don't understand your insecurity about Boeing, which is the supreme aircraft manufacturer, and has been for
86 Post contains images Udo : I just keep commenting when I see someone's apparent lack of knowledge, e.g. when people deny A330 and A340 belong to one family... Fine. Good you do
87 Beauing : Could you elaborate as to why you think this is so?
88 Mariner : It is not, perhaps, fair of me to say that the Sonic Cruiser was ONLY possible because of the Concorde - it might have come about eventually, anyway,
89 RedFlyer : Udo, I respect (though not necessarily agree) with a lot of what you write here. But you have to admit that a lot of media attention (as well as A.Ne
90 Post contains images FlyAUA : That's true, it's just the example he used so I responded. They not only targeted different markets, they were even built miles apart so they incorpo
91 Beauing : The Sonic Cruiser was NOT, period. It never made it off the drawing board. You keep talking as though it were a real plane.
92 Post contains images Mariner : Um - you asked me for an opinion on this - - and I don't know how to do that without mentioning the (intended) Sonic Cruiser. I do know that it was o
93 Zvezda : Nonsense. My posts #42 and #55 were exactly on topic. My post #69 was off topic but no more so than the post to which I replied. I was not in any way
94 Beauing : Would you say that the Concorde was only possible - in large part - because of the Wright flyer? Of course not, someone else would have done it. Unle
95 RedFlyer : Beauing: Your refreshingly forthright and to-the-point postings earn a you spot on my respected user list!
96 Beauing : Considering one was built in the US and one was built in Europe--that's miles apart, alright. You won't get any argument out of me on that one. No si
97 Post contains images Mariner : Have it your way, I'm just blowing smoke. But I don't know what I'm blowing smoke about. Is the fact that I said Boeing is the supreme aircraft manuf
98 Udo : Beauing alluded to Airbus being into "just breaking even or niche planes". That's what I wanted to oppose with my remark, without talking about a par
99 Astuteman : Good replies, Mariner. I don't see why anyone has a need to feel insecure about Boeing. How can anyone question that it's been the most successful co
100 SparkingWave : It's great the Airbus is working to make the A380 more reliable and I think it's within a bulls-eye chance of being a respectable success. But what ab
101 Post contains images FlyAUA : If you used your brain, you would have realised that I was talking about time and obviously not where they were built, rather than mocking me
102 Post contains images Beauing : How do you know I wasn't talking about McDonnell Douglas or Lockheed? I mention "breaking even" or "niche" planes and you immediately think of Airbus
103 Post contains images Udo : That wasn't a hard guess regarding what you permanently say about Airbus and what you mentioned in that thread alone. And your remark came after a lo
104 Post contains images Beauing : You apparently think "break even" and "niche" airplanes. Sorry bud, you've been hoisted by your own pétard...
105 Post contains images Udo : Another proof you are neither able to read nor to understand rational and logic arguments (see reply 103), so not worth any longer to respond to your
106 Post contains images Astuteman : FWIW, this is my first 100 post thread - and at least 50 posts were on topic............... Thanks, guys.
107 Shenzhen : Airbus truly needs to have a high dispatch reliability, simply due to the cost of a delay on an airplane this size. They've set a high mark, lets hope
108 Udo : They are not the same, but very similar, share most parts and components and come from the same production line - in contrast to B707, B727 or B737.
109 Post contains images Mariner : To some extent, for sure. Planning work on the B70 began in 54/55, while the British started serious work on a supersonic transport in 1955. Perhaps
110 Post contains images FlyAUA : Ok I was wrong about the 12 years, so I take that back and offer my apologies. I just had a look at the link you gave me though, and it shows the DC
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