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Boeing Decides In Principle To Build 747 ADV  
User currently offlineKeesje From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (9 years 1 month 3 weeks 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 14938 times:

Boeing decides in principle to build 747 Advanced aircraft
- report 07.01.2005, 03:30 AM

FRANKFURT (AFX) - Boeing Corp's executive board on Monday decided in principle to go ahead with the construction of its 747 Advanced jumbojet as a rival to Airbus Industrie's A380 superjumbo, German daily Financial Times Deutschland reported, citing no sources.

The newspaper said Boeing will start building the planes as soon as two renowned clients have signed up for the aircraft.

According to the newspaper, Boeing CEO James McNerney said during a telephone conference yesterday that Airbus will go ahead with its 747 Advanced plans if there is sufficient customer demand, although he did not provide any details.



http://www.forbes.com/home/feeds/afx/2005/07/01/afx2120084.html

[Edited 2005-07-01 09:51:40]

139 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinePlaneSmart From New Zealand, joined Dec 2004, 896 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (9 years 1 month 3 weeks 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 14868 times:

More PR spin. If prospective customers, who show no inclination at present to commit, stop dragging their feet, we might launch.

Lets see how long this saga can be drawn out.


User currently offlineMAS747 From Malaysia, joined Mar 2004, 88 posts, RR: 2
Reply 2, posted (9 years 1 month 3 weeks 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 14836 times:

Whats that 11.7 feet going to add to the plane though? if it is supposed to be a direct competitor to the A380, how can they fit enough pax in that extra 11.7 feet?

User currently offlinePM From Germany, joined Feb 2005, 6887 posts, RR: 63
Reply 3, posted (9 years 1 month 3 weeks 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 14795 times:

Quoting MAS747 (Reply 2):
if it is supposed to be a direct competitor to the A380

But it's not! It's looking to fill a perceived gap between the 773ER and A380.


User currently offlineWhiteHatter From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 4, posted (9 years 1 month 3 weeks 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 14770 times:

Quoting MAS747 (Reply 2):
Whats that 11.7 feet going to add to the plane though? if it is supposed to be a direct competitor to the A380, how can they fit enough pax in that extra 11.7 feet?

It is not an exact competitor.

Boeing has done their research and they feel that an aircraft positioned just below the A380 in capacity is a good market entry point for their 747X.

Having to duplicate the other manufacturer's product line seat-for-seat is something which only seems to have its fans on this board. The two manufacturers have done their research and are marketing products which are only broadly similar, hence having their own selling points on capacity and engineering. There is little point having two identical airframes duking it out for the same limited market.

Airbus has the numbers on capacity, Boeing has the advantage on freight and compatability with existing 747 and proposed 787 operators.


User currently offlineDCrawley From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 371 posts, RR: 1
Reply 5, posted (9 years 1 month 3 weeks 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 14762 times:

Quoting Keesje (Thread starter):
According to the newspaper, Boeing CEO James McNerney said during a telephone conference yesterday that Airbus will go ahead with its 747 Advanced plans if there is sufficient customer demand, although he did not provide any details.

Shouldn't it be "...Boeing will go ahead with its 747 Advanced plans.." instead of Airbus?  Wink An Airbus 747 Advanced.. now THERE'S a concept! lol

Just a quick bit,

-D.K. Crawley



"Weather at our destination is 50 degrees with some broken clouds, but they'll try to have them fixed before we arrive."
User currently offlineHa763 From United States of America, joined Jan 2003, 3655 posts, RR: 5
Reply 6, posted (9 years 1 month 3 weeks 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 14746 times:
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The 747ADV, 450 pax, will seat 100 less pax than the A380-800, 555 pax. According to information from each manufacturer.

[Edited 2005-07-01 10:18:22]

User currently offlineFlyAUA From Austria, joined May 2005, 4604 posts, RR: 56
Reply 7, posted (9 years 1 month 3 weeks 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 14743 times:

Quoting Keesje (Thread starter):
as a rival to Airbus Industrie's A380 superjumbo

Whatever, they will have to do more than that to create a "rival" to the superjumbo! All they've got now is a great design for a successor to the 747-400. Definately no rival!

Thanks for the article Keesje. I am just curious as to why this was stated by the papers before Boeing itself goes public with it. For Boeings sake, I hope they find those 2 customers (I am sure they will find them as well), but still can't help the fact that this *is* PR crap. Very similar to when Leahy goes boasting and showing off numbers.

Quoting PlaneSmart (Reply 1):
If prospective customers, who show no inclination at present to commit, stop dragging their feet, we might launch.

Before I read your post, that thought also crossed my mind.

Quoting DCrawley (Reply 5):
houldn't it be "...Boeing will go ahead with its 747 Advanced plans.." instead of Airbus? An Airbus 747 Advanced.. now THERE'S a concept! lol

LOL, well spotted  bigthumbsup 

[Edited 2005-07-01 10:20:36]


Not drinking, also isn't a solution!
User currently offline777ER From New Zealand, joined Dec 2003, 12092 posts, RR: 18
Reply 8, posted (9 years 1 month 3 weeks 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 14725 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
FORUM MODERATOR

Wouldn't it have been more wise to just keep the B744Adv as the same size as the current B747s and just extend the upper deck. 11.7 feet more more will give the B744Adv the same problems that the A346 had when it entered service

User currently offlineDutchjet From Netherlands, joined Oct 2000, 7864 posts, RR: 57
Reply 9, posted (9 years 1 month 3 weeks 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 14594 times:

Of course, the key question is which two airlines will be the launch customers for the 747Advanced? It could be just about any two major airlines that now fly the 744 (including those that have already ordered the A380 as the 744Advanced has less capacity than the A380).

BA, CX, SQ, LH and QF are all candidates to launch the type, in my opinion.....each are very big 744 operators, all will continue to grow and expand in the future, and all fly lots of routes with the 744 that are not yet ready to be upgraded to an A380 nor are suitable for a downgrade to a 773/A346. I realize that some of these airlines have issued public relations type press releases claiming little interest in the 747Advanced (ie SQ), but I am not convinced.....especially with SQ, if SQ can get the right airplane, with the right operating economics, at the right price, it will find a place for the 744Advanced in its fleet.

The "two-band" strech is very practical, adding space to both the premium class cabins (on two levels) where more and more space is needed for improved F and J class products and a second band in the Y class area of the aircraft - and of course more freight capacity. It will be interesting to see the final peformance numbers of the 744Advanced, especially as they compare to the 744 and A380.

But, as many of us has said before, time is becoming critical....if Boeing does not launch the 747Advanced soon, the project will die, Boeing needs enough time to develop the aircraft while keeping the existing 744 prouction line open, plus airlines (especially leading carriers such as the ones mentioned as potential launch customers) need to make fleet planning decisions concerning what will types will replace their 744 fleets - the oldest of which is already 15+ years old.


User currently offlineKeesje From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 10, posted (9 years 1 month 3 weeks 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 14503 times:

Quoting Ha763 (Reply 6):
The 747ADV, 450 pax, will seat 100 less pax than the A380-800, 555 pax. According to information from each manufacturer.

Carriers like BA, UA and CX fit 280-350 passenger in their 747-400's.

- 4-5 extra M rows,
- significant lower fuel costs,
- a cabin optimized for new IFE & increased handluggage,
- lower maintenance cost
- large commonality with existing fleet & infrastructure

sounds like a viable offering to Boeing 747 operators

Like the B777/A332 came out as winning long haul couple for many operators, so can the 744/A380 IMO.

Will a combi version come out?


User currently offlineDutchjet From Netherlands, joined Oct 2000, 7864 posts, RR: 57
Reply 11, posted (9 years 1 month 3 weeks 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 14456 times:

Quoting Keesje (Reply 10):

sounds like a viable offering to Boeing 747 operators

Like the B777/A332 came out as winning long haul couple for many operators, so can the 744/A380 IMO.

Will a combi version come out?

1. I agree.

2. A 744Advanced/A380 combo could work for some carriers, those that are very oriented to longhaul, high capacity flying. The problem is the number of fleet types, only the biggest airlines can justify having an aircraft in the 773/A346 class, plus the 744Advanced, and the A380. This is an interesting issue.

3. As for the combi - I guess it all depends on KLM!


User currently offlineNA From Germany, joined Dec 1999, 10679 posts, RR: 9
Reply 12, posted (9 years 1 month 3 weeks 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 14377 times:

Ok, the chef has done the cooking, now where are the paying guests?

Good news. Every step towards a new 747 is welcome. And this was a major one. Still its odd not a single airline has raised its finger clearly to be seen.


User currently offlineF4N From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 13, posted (9 years 1 month 3 weeks 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 14340 times:

To all:

The CEO of Cargolux has stated in the past that he will order the 747A only IF
Boeing will formally offer it. My suspicion is that Boeing's tentative approach will nontheless move forward; I doubt they would allow their new CEO to make this statement and put his credibility on the line w/o something already in the bag.

regards,

F4N


User currently offlineColumba From Germany, joined Dec 2004, 7062 posts, RR: 4
Reply 14, posted (9 years 1 month 3 weeks 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 14305 times:

German news magazine "Der Spiegel" wrote that the main candidates in Europe for the new 747 would be LH and Cargolux.

http://www.spiegel.de/wirtschaft/0,1518,363101,00.html



It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
User currently offlinePM From Germany, joined Feb 2005, 6887 posts, RR: 63
Reply 15, posted (9 years 1 month 3 weeks 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 14290 times:

Quoting Keesje (Reply 10):
Will a combi version come out?

I understood that the FAA no longer looked kindly on combis.


User currently offlineRichardw From United Kingdom, joined May 2001, 3749 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (9 years 1 month 3 weeks 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 14252 times:

How many would they order?

User currently offlineFlyAUA From Austria, joined May 2005, 4604 posts, RR: 56
Reply 17, posted (9 years 1 month 3 weeks 3 days ago) and read 13978 times:

Quoting Richardw (Reply 16):
How many would they order?

Cargolux ordered one from Boeing, and will buy the other one off Singapore Airlines.



Not drinking, also isn't a solution!
User currently offlineHalls120 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 18, posted (9 years 1 month 3 weeks 3 days ago) and read 13922 times:

Quoting 777ER (Reply 8):
Wouldn't it have been more wise to just keep the B744Adv as the same size as the current B747s and just extend the upper deck. 11.7 feet more more will give the B744Adv the same problems that the A346 had when it entered service

Extending only the upper deck won't give the aircraft increased cargo capacity.


User currently offlineNA From Germany, joined Dec 1999, 10679 posts, RR: 9
Reply 19, posted (9 years 1 month 3 weeks 3 days ago) and read 13899 times:

Cargolux ordered a 747 Adv. freighter, or is it rather another 744F?

User currently offlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 12425 posts, RR: 25
Reply 20, posted (9 years 1 month 3 weeks 3 days ago) and read 13898 times:

Quoting Keesje (Thread starter):
According to the newspaper, Boeing CEO James McNerney said during a telephone conference yesterday that Airbus will go ahead with its 747 Advanced plans if there is sufficient customer demand, although he did not provide any details.

I know Boeing's been doing a lot of outsourcing, so it's good to see Airbus do the smart thing and get on board for the 747 Advanced. So, does this mean Boeing is subsidized too?  Smile



Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently offlineN328KF From United States of America, joined May 2004, 6484 posts, RR: 3
Reply 21, posted (9 years 1 month 3 weeks 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 13552 times:

Quoting Richardw (Reply 16):
Cargolux ordered one from Boeing, and will buy the other one off Singapore Airlines.



Quoting FlyAUA (Reply 17):
Cargolux ordered one from Boeing, and will buy the other one off Singapore Airlines.



Quoting NA (Reply 19):
Cargolux ordered a 747 Adv. freighter, or is it rather another 744F?

NA: I believe FlyAUA is being facetious.



When they call the roll in the Senate, the Senators do not know whether to answer 'Present' or 'Not guilty.' T.Roosevelt
User currently offlineDfwRevolution From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 968 posts, RR: 51
Reply 22, posted (9 years 1 month 3 weeks 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 13513 times:

>> Will a combi version come out?

You know the answer to that... the probabilty of a new combi being certified is virtually zero.

>> Wouldn't it have been more wise to just keep the B744Adv as the same size as the current B747s and just extend the upper deck.

No, in fact, studies from previous 747 derrivitives show that the airplane is most structurally efficent with a ~11 ft stretch. Extending the upper deck alone would disrupt balance; the current stretch is both ahead and behind the wing.

>> For Boeings sake, I hope they find those 2 customers (I am sure they will find them as well), but still can't help the fact that this *is* PR crap. Very similar to when Leahy goes boasting and showing off numbers.

You're being more short-sighted than usual if you can't see that this is another step closer to an Adv launch. It is at a high probability for a go at this point...

>> If prospective customers, who show no inclination at present to commit, stop dragging their feet, we might launch

And what on Earth gave you that idea? Virtually all potential launch customers have said their decisions would be made toward the end of -05 and Boeing said their decision to formally offer the airplane wouldn't be made until mid-year. A subtle hint to this reality is confirmed by:

"Right now we have a window of opportunity. Our customer airlines want us to make a decision this year. And some airlines have told us that they also need to make a decision this year. So, the window requires we both come together at the same time.

But I think it's safe to say we're feeling positive about it. We've definitely had strong interest. The key thing now is timing.
- Randy Bassler, June 23, 2005

Perhaps you need to be more patient, because I don't think Boeing (nor customers) have ever planned to launch the Adv in the first half of 2005.

>> Before I read your post, that thought also crossed my mind.

Oh, shut up.  Yeah sure


User currently offlineZvezda From Lithuania, joined Aug 2004, 10511 posts, RR: 64
Reply 23, posted (9 years 1 month 3 weeks 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 12969 times:

This is one small but important step toward launch. The public announcement is not PR spin but rather gives assurance to airlines that if two of them sign up for the B747Adv then they can count on a launch. Nothing more, nothing less. Airlines don't want to spend money assembling an order unless they are confident it will be filled, hence the need for assurance -- especially given Boeing's history of not launching proposed B747-400 follow-ons.

There will be no new combis because the FAA have decided that the bulkheads used to separate the passenger and cargo areas are inadequate. Bulkheads that could be certified would be too heavy.


User currently offlineDAYflyer From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 3807 posts, RR: 3
Reply 24, posted (9 years 1 month 3 weeks 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 12800 times:

If the 747 Adv had such great prospects, why the waiting game? Enough is enough, launch it already.


One Nation Under God
25 Post contains images DfwRevolution : >> If the 747 Adv had such great prospects, why the waiting game? Because it's that straightforward and everything? Heck Airbus has "orders" for the
26 Boeing7E7 : Have a couple billion you want to spend without proper evaluation. He expects tomorrow.
27 MidnightMike : You don't understand business very well? This is called creating a buzz, unofficially getting word to potential customers to look at the airplane, ma
28 FlyAUA : I never said we're not getting closer to a launch. You put those words in my mouth. I said that it's the same "announcement" we've been getting the w
29 Alphafloor : Basically I really don't undertand Boeing's vision for the future of aviation. They said that "point to point" was the future with the B787 and not "
30 FlyAUA : Them stating the future is in point-to-point travel was only a publicity stunt. The future will see both point-to-point and hub-and-spoke models grow
31 SE210Caravelle : Sounds perfect really. This appeals much more to me then 555 seats and seems a little more operable for the airlines. But there is a need for more ca
32 N60659 : It is not a contradiction as you state - Boeing's position has always been that a market exists for hub-to-hub, albeit a small one. Here is something
33 Post contains images DfwRevolution : >> Second of all: Rule #1... Please respect each other and choose your words wisely. Each user has their own point of view, and these views must be r
34 MidnightMike : Not really, Boeing has always said that there is a market for the VLJ (Very Large Jet) market, just not a big one. Such flights such as JFK-LHR, or L
36 N79969 : "Them stating the future is in point-to-point travel was only a publicity stunt." Actually there is a better chance of the A380 being the most elabora
37 Boeing7E7 : While point-to-point is the future, there is still demand for VLA's. Beoing never denied it, they disagreed on the size of the market. It's not the "
38 Freedom4all : Blah....Blah...Blah....how many times do we need to hear...they "might" launch it...."want to" launch it...."are close" to launching it. No more posts
39 N60659 : You do have the option of ignoring these so-called "BLAH BLAH BLAH" 747Adv posts don't you? -N60659
40 DfwRevolution : >> Blah....Blah...Blah....how many times do we need to hear...they "might" launch it...."want to" launch it...."are close" to launching it Did you re
41 Art : Precisely. For myself, I would welcome any aircraft that allows 400 to 550 pax to be moved from A to B more efficiently than would be the case in the
42 Post contains images Glideslope : Thank you. It's nice to see reality based comments in here from time to time.
43 Tockeyhockey : the hump is extended as far as it can go. one of the reasons that the 747 is the fastest pax jet in the skies is because of the shape of the hump and
44 Post contains images Theredbaron : yawnnn... wake me when they announce it...so much for PR ...
45 Aseem : don't know how many of you noticed, that B747ADV seems to have "raked wingtips" like B773/2LR. rgds VT-ASJ
46 Ken777 : This is just another step towards getting the 747ADV off the ground. I have no doubts that it will fly and believe that there is a lot of work going o
47 DfwRevolution : >> wake me when they announce it...so much for PR ... Suit yourself... >> don't know how many of you noticed, that B747ADV seems to have "raked wingt
48 Thunderbird1 : Seems like it would be better if there wasn't a full 100 pass gap between the Adv and the A380. For example, a 480 seater sounds better than a 450, in
49 PPVRA : So, will the 747ADV only be offered in the "stretch" version or also the current size version? PPVRA
50 BoeingBus : I would imagine the 744 will always be offered until the orders dry up. But airliners are more likely to go for the 747 Advanced. The 744 production
51 PPVRA : I meant as with the upgrades, a 747ADV in the current size without the stretch. I don't know if it would cost too much to also offer the 47ADV withou
52 NW727251ADV : I CONCUR! I think you are missing the root to the frustration of some who have posted on here. Speaking for myself I dont give a rat-a$$ how many peo
53 AeroPiggot : tockeyhockey, has it almost correct, but he meant cross-section area and not surface area. The cross sectional area projected to the incoming airflow
54 PPVRA : Because it would weight a lot less. 1. It would, theoreticaly, fly further. 2. Fly further for a lot less. 3. Have the benefits (new wings, new inter
55 707lvr : I wonder if more than a few majors are looking not so much at how many revenue seats they can potentially put up every day on very long routes but how
56 Post contains images CXYYZ : Good news. Too many 747 variants have died, it sounds more and more like this one won't. Someone call the CEOs of CX and LH and tell them to hurry up
57 Aither : Well this is actually new from Boeing. They just have figured out Airbus and many airlines were right. LR Routes = hub to hub or hub to point. In fac
58 CHI787ORD : Is it just me or is the 747A one beautiful plane? I think it's more asthetically pleasing compared to the "WhaleJet".
59 CHI787ORD : Will the 747Advanced be called the 797? Or will it just stay as a 747 model?
60 Dutchjet : My guess, and its only a guess, I think it will be the 747-800. Why? 1. The -800/-900 variants names are currently in style (A380, A350, 787). 2. The
61 Post contains images FlyAUA : You are allowed to be pompous when you can back up your arguments which I do. At least I respect other people's opinions and do not impose mine upon
62 Blackbird1331 : I'll call my pals at Boeing tomorrow and tell them to go ahead with the 747 ADV. Get your orders in now, it will be in demand.
63 Post contains images Theredbaron : Thanks for the post FlyAUA (thats why you are on my RR list).. DFW can I wait seated?...man its going to be a looooooooooongggg, time!
64 Aloha717200 : I think it will simply remain the "747 Advanced". I don't think there will be a -number anything. Just the 747A. And yes it is a very beautiful plane.
65 Post contains links and images Jacobin777 : bit arrogant....innit? I don't find DfwRevolution's imosing his opinion towards others (well not me at least), and I find many of his comments to be
66 FriendlySkies : Not really. Otherwise they wouldn't be predicting 3000 787-size aircraft and only 500 747A and 500 A380-sized aircraft for the next 20 years. They se
67 Jet-lagged : I'm still a bit doubtful on Boeing actually launching the 747Adv, although now I think their situation is changing and the chances are looking better.
68 N79969 : For the sake of clarity, I will repeat it again: the 747Adv is consistent with Boeing's long-held view of fragmentation and does nothing to vindicate
69 Mariner : In that is so, how will this happen: mariner[Edited 2005-07-02 04:15:47]
70 Dalecary : Are you serious??? I remember a post vividly about a week ago where your errors were pointed out by at least 4 others and you received no support. Di
71 N79969 : Mariner, Fair enough question. Boeing and Airbus use their views of the market to justify how they will allocate their limited resources. In other wor
72 Atmx2000 : 5. The 747Adv is an 8000nm aircraft.
73 Scotron11 : This is what McNerney said in an interview with the Seattle Times yesterday: On the next version of the 747, the 747 Advanced: "This is a plane that,
74 Post contains links and images DfwRevolution : >> I remember a post vividly about a week ago where your errors were pointed out by at least 4 others and you received no support. Well if it was onl
75 ZKSUJ : I hope the 747 Advanced come with the winglets the 744 curently has. Woulkd be a shame to see the winglets go.
76 N79969 : I agree with Scotron11 above and F4N in reply 13. I think given the circumstances and choice of words, the 747Adv is a few formalities away from being
77 Mariner : Okay. But that suggests that there is a market for a VLA, be it the 747 ADV or the A380. And I'm sure you not pretending that the 747 ADV isn't a VLA
78 Sonic67 : What is the reason the B just doesn't extend the upper deck to or almost to the tail?
79 N79969 : Mariner, I do not think the 747Adv would qualify as VLA. There is a sizeable payload gap between the the largest 747 (747Adv) and the baseline A380 wh
80 FlyAUA : An argument with 1 rational person and 4 Boeing cheerleaders is a lose-lose situation. You are one of the latter by the way from an argument I recall
81 Dalecary : So, you are the rational person and the others who proved you wrong are all cheerleaders??? Sounds like someone has tickets on themselves to me. BTW
82 JAM747 : Over the history of aviation there have always been conflicting philosophies of predicting the market for the demand and types of aircrafts. Many peop
83 N79969 : I would wager that when the VLA market is actually ready to take off (around 2015 or so according to some analysts), Boeing will show up to the VLA ma
84 Post contains images FlyAUA : I've admitted defeat on here several times when it is justified. A person claiming they are an "insider" knowing everything and neglecting sources I
85 N60659 : Does anyone have copies of the Airbus and Boeing CMO from 1982-1985? It would be interesting to see how accurately each of these companies predicted m
86 Post contains images Nirvarma : Hahaha...whatever....
87 Mariner : Then I think you should state your defintion of VLA. Domestic Japanese variants of the 747 have been carrying 500 pax for many years, and several air
88 Dutchjet : This is certainly part of the story, the A380/747Advanced/787/A350 story is a rather long and complicated one. Way back when, Boeing made the determi
89 PlaneSmart : The lyrics, slip sliding away, come to mind. The longer it takes to launch a hybrid 747, the less likely it is to happen, and the more likely a full
90 Mariner : As I said, I have no problem with it. As equally, I have no problem with Airbus hurtling to the A350. (a) It is competition. (b) Clearly, the dynamic
91 Dalecary : Source me where I claim to be an insider??? Your sourcing is always selective and is what you always attack others on. Your argument about 330/350 co
92 Post contains images FlyAUA : Not you, just the people who claimed they had "better" sources than the ones I quoted in the arguments where you feel I horribly lost or whatever you
93 Jacobin777 : care to substantiate your comments? How do you know Boeing have no customers? Whats the large risk? It not an "all new" aircraft, but a derivative. H
94 Post contains images Sllevin : Well, Airbus' case is pretty much in place, since they've been building them. That said, yes, I think there's very much a market for a 747 to replace
95 Jet-lagged : In my view, almost every 747Adv sold would represent a lost sale for the A380. Air carriers have finite ability to fund and deploy aircraft in total
96 Post contains images FlyAUA : Any B747ADV purchases would definately mean less A380 sales. But not to the extent you have highlighted (in my opinion). It's not as simple as 100 mo
97 N79969 : Mariner, The very term "Very Large Airplane-VLA" did not really come into existence or at least into its current, widely understood usage until it cam
98 Mariner : Please do not put me in "the Airbus camp". I have defended Airbus in this forum against some of the more outrageous - even gleeful - claims of "the B
99 N79969 : Mariner, We have debated many times before and I carefully read your posts, your choice of words, the points that you omit, and arguments made-- both
100 F4N : To all: I'm not at all certain where the notion that the 747A is a 380 competitor came from. As far as I can recall, Boeing's only attempt to tailor t
101 NA : F4N, you´re certainly right. A 747 Advanced is a stopgap to stay in the race at the market´s top end for some more years. When the A380 has settled
102 Post contains images F4N : NA: Interesting point; I guess it never occurred to me that a Boeing VLA would be anything but a 4-holer, but if we look at the technology difference
103 Zvezda : How big Y3 will be is open, but not completely open. Boeing will not leave a large gap between the largest B787 and the smallest Y3 (as Airbus did be
104 NA : Hmmm, So you think it will be a twin? Chances maybe more than 50%, yes, but somehow I think Boeings all-new Jumbo to debut probably towards the end of
105 Zvezda : There are a couple of arguments in favour of the hump. One is that it gets the cockpit above the maindeck, freeing up space for passengers. Second is
106 Sllevin : Actually, at some point, wasn't there commentary that the actual operating costs of the A380 would be identical to the 747-400? (I'm talking block cos
107 Sinlock : I can't believe I'm saying this, but I'm with the nay-sayers on this one. I don't see it as a big deal that "Boeing Decides In Principle To Build 747
108 Zvezda : Mariner, I've never considered you biased for or against Airbus or Boeing. The only label I associate with you is Marxist. Admittedly, I have a bit m
109 Mariner : Of course you don't. To any believer, belief is critical mass. I do suggest that anyone who has stated in a post on this forum - particularly in a th
110 Aither : Dfw, well i'm well aware of what Boeing means by "point". Still they make people believe "point" as a "small" city/market ("where people want to go"
111 Lehpron : For the sake of arguement, what if only those two clients sign up for the plane? Airbus is being ambitious with A380 yes, and if Boeing insists the m
112 Post contains images Keesje : Statements like this do tempt respected members like Mariner (who actually do have some new balanced content to add) to responds on it & soon after m
113 N79969 : In regards to remarks made by NA and F4N, I also wonder what Boeing will do if and when it enters the VLA market. I am particularly curious as to how
114 Mariner : Gosh - sorry. You said you are not a neutral, dispassionate commentator. I took that to mean you are partisan, a believer in Boeing's cause. If you a
115 Post contains images Patroni : Moien FlyAua! With all due respect, but if this CV pilot told you that the two aircraft you are taking about are 747Adv, he would be dreaming Both are
116 Boeing7E7 : Look at Boeing and Airbus' projected sales for VLA's vs. 787/A350 sized aircraft. That ought to convince you on which market is more viable. The 787/
117 Post contains images FlyAUA : No I never said 747ADV... as far as I am concerned they are not even being built now My initial post mentioned 744, and well, of course they are frei
118 DAYflyer : Airbus has not been talking about an A-350 or varients thereof for 3 years now, have they? And since the plane is already 99% designed, it is a lot m
119 FlyAUA : As an outsider watching this discussion between you two I am curious what you mean. Are you saying the 787 technology in a new 747ADV, like airbus is
120 Zvezda : That doesn't seem quite fair. By all accounts, the WhaleJet will be seating about 500 passengers, not 450.
121 FlyAUA : Thanks for pointing this out. And actually it's even higher than that, but you already know, I'm sure. Just he doesn't! Boeing7E7, please have a look
122 Boeing7E7 : And as with any configuration over 450, it will burn more fuel. I was showing the burn rate of a configuration twice the size of a 787. It's to burn
123 FlyAUA : I was merely pointing out that the A380 configuration is not 450 as you mentioned in that fuel comparison post.
124 Boeing7E7 : The 450 pax was the fuel burn qualifier for 2-226 seat flights(787-8) vs. 1-450 seat flight (A-380). An unfair comparison would be 2-226 seaters (787
125 Zvezda : And with an all Economy 9 abreast configuration, the B787 would probably seat close to 400. Let's compare apples to apples and oranges to oranges.
126 Boeing7E7 : So much for leg room.
127 Ikramerica : Yeah, I don't think I'd want to fly a 400 seat 789 or an 800 seat A380. Ouch!
128 Post contains images Zvezda : They seem equally bad to me.
129 NoUFO : Ok, what exactly is new here? Boeing is going to formally launch the 747ADV if there are plenty of customers. How does this differ from the informatio
130 Zvezda : It's a small step. It's the first time Boeing have specified the number of customers needed to launch. Not earth-shaking, but news-worthy in an aviat
131 Post contains images FlyAUA : Oh whatever, don't skew the results to make them look in favour of your argument. You state you are an analyst so you should know better I will belie
132 DAYflyer : I apologize for creating any confusion. What I was saying is that Boeing needs to design an all new aircraft to replace the 747; one that incorporate
133 Zvezda : Someday Boeing will replace the B747 (and probably the B777-300) with an all new aircraft family. However, that is probably something like 10 years a
134 DAYflyer : Thats highly understandable for the 777 family, but a 35 year old airframe? It is perhaps now time for the 747.
135 Zvezda : If Boeing can sell the B747Adv now, then it would be insane for them to spend $10 billion or so developing an all-new aircraft. Better to spend $1 bil
136 N60659 : Well said! Besides, incorporating 787 level technologies on such a venture could be risky given that they are not mature enough for widespread applic
137 Shenzhen : I don't think that there will be any earth shattering orders for a 747Adv. Boeing has shown that if they feel there is a market, may not even be today
138 Boeing7E7 : Which is why I qualified the statement in the first place. Either way my argument is favored until you get to about 600 pax on a 380... and no thanks
139 DAYflyer : A very good point.
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