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HP Ends Non-hub Transcons  
User currently offlinePadcrasher From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (9 years 2 months 2 weeks 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 5947 times:

Re cap from Av Daily


America West will end on Sept. 7 plans its last two non-hub transcontinental services flights LAX-JFK and LAX BOS. The airline currently offers two daily flights to JFK and one to Boston. After the US Airways merger was announced, America West hinted it would eventually drop the flights.

35 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 32781 posts, RR: 72
Reply 1, posted (9 years 2 months 2 weeks 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 5924 times:

Interesting. I thought they would have kept them, not because of their trans-con stragedy, but because of their small LAX build-up. Too bad, but not surprising. Their trans-cons seemed to be an up and down roller coaster. They were doing well, not doing well, doing well, not doing well...and on and on. Though the San Fran flights never did that well, LAX-IAD was never a strong performer, and LAX-MIA was set to be announced, but never was.


a.
User currently offlineCslusarc From Canada, joined May 2005, 840 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (9 years 2 months 2 weeks 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 5890 times:

SMART MOVE HP!

HP has stated that the non-hub transcontinental flights have not been profitable for HP. When HP originally launched them HP believed that they would become profitable but circumstances have changed. Oil is $60/barrel. Industry RASM remains low. Incumbant and new competitors increased capacity on these routes.



--cslusarc from YWG
User currently offlineDutchjet From Netherlands, joined Oct 2000, 7864 posts, RR: 57
Reply 3, posted (9 years 2 months 2 weeks 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 5879 times:

The transcon routes were a big gamble for America West - I am not surprised that they are being dropped. There is a lot of competion on these routes, and HP was up against everything from United's Premium Service flights to JetBlues frequent departures and reasonable fares. Business travellers seem to be loyal to UA and AA and the lesiure crowd in NYC is very enamoured with JetBlue - add CO out of EWR and Song (replacing DL) with a lot of new capacity, and you have one difficult market. There are sure to be more profitable opportunities out there for HP and the aircraft that were utilized for these flights.

User currently offlineCommavia From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 11628 posts, RR: 61
Reply 4, posted (9 years 2 months 2 weeks 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 5843 times:

With the extreme overcapacity in the markets with B6 on JFK-LGB/OAK and now Song on JFK-LAX/SFO, there just wasn't room for HP, the smallest player in the market. HP also didn't need these routes, as they undercut the new HP-US hubs in PHL and CLT. Besides, nobody needed HP's low fares as B6 and Song were flying these routes. On a somewhat related note, I don't think it will be long before we see DL cut down the Song frequency on JFK-LAX/SFO. There simply is no need for that many 757s a day on these routes -- UA, AA and B6 have these markets covered just fine.

User currently offlinePadcrasher From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 5, posted (9 years 2 months 2 weeks 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 5676 times:

I don't see an advantage here for AA.

Their average fare in the JFK-LAX market in the 3Q 04 was $309 versus $211 for Delta. (I did not have DL's JFK-LAX data so I prorated from the difference in from the Los Angeles/NYC market data. $278 (AA) vs $191 (DL). Their latest load factor for March was 90% versus 80% for Delta. So you see Delta getting about 60% of the RASM that AA obtains. But the Song 757 has a CASM only 60% of AA's number. A 767-200 (20% higher operating costs) and holding 156 seats versus a 199 seats for Song.

Looks like a wash.


User currently offlineCommavia From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 11628 posts, RR: 61
Reply 6, posted (9 years 2 months 2 weeks 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 5579 times:

Quoting Padcrasher (Reply 5):
I don't see an advantage here for AA.

AA has a few advantages. First, they have a much stronger historical presence and stronger ties to the business community in both JFK markets (LAX and SFO) than DL. DL commands virtually no premium traffic on the JFK-LAX/SFO routes, which is why they lost mainline in favor of all-Y song. Secondly, AA's planes are very low-density, insulating them somewhat from the highly volative pricing environment in Y because of the extreme overcapacity on these routes (with AA, UA, HP, DL and B6). AA can match the lower Y fares and command a significant revenue premium in F and C. Finally, AA can use frequency and capacity as a weapon against DL. AA has almost twice as many flights per day on JFK-LAX as DL. AA can spread its premium traffic out over all these flights, and be far more selective in offering cheap fares throughout the day, whereas DL's transition to Song flying in these markets pretty much means that they are only going for the low-yield traffic on all flights, all the time. And, that's fine -- it may work for them. But, I personally don't believe that the market can sustain DL with 7 757s per day JFK-LAX and 5 JFK-SFO when both markets already have reliable service and plenty of capacity from both AA and UA, plus B6 to LGB and OAK. I could be wrong, but I predict that within one year, Song will have reduced JFK-LAX down from 7 to 4-5 daily flights and JFK-SFO down from 5 to 3-4 daily flights.


User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 32781 posts, RR: 72
Reply 7, posted (9 years 2 months 2 weeks 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 5511 times:

Quoting Padcrasher (Reply 5):
I don't see an advantage here for AA.

They have so many business/corporate contracts on their LAX/SFO-JFK flights it is not even funny. Sure, they are losing Mr. and Mrs. Vacation to Delta, but they are not losing money on these routes even with the added compieition. AA's 762s are in a low-density configuration for a reason.



a.
User currently offlineCommavia From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 11628 posts, RR: 61
Reply 8, posted (9 years 2 months 2 weeks 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 5492 times:

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 7):
Sure, they are losing Mr. and Mrs. Vacation to Delta, but they are not losing money on these routes even with the added compieition. AA's 762s are in a low-density configuration for a reason.

Absolutely right. Considering, AA has done fairly well up against UA fighting them on the high end and B6, HP and DL battling them on the low end. AA has seen virtually no impact whatsoever to their sales in these markets from UA's P.S. service.


User currently offlinePadcrasher From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 9, posted (9 years 2 months 2 weeks 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 5425 times:

Sure they have the contracts, but the DOT data should reflect the economics in the market. (Unless AA has back end contracts, which would reduce their yield even further)

User currently offlineCommavia From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 11628 posts, RR: 61
Reply 10, posted (9 years 2 months 2 weeks 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 5354 times:

Quoting Padcrasher (Reply 9):
Sure they have the contracts, but the DOT data should reflect the economics in the market. (Unless AA has back end contracts, which would reduce their yield even further)

I don't know what DOT says, but I know that AA has seen no impact on its performance in the JFK-LAX and JFK-SFO markets from UA's P.S. service introduction. The introduction of B6, HP and Song to the markets has no doubt impacted negatively their Y yields, however.


User currently offlineHPRamper From United States of America, joined May 2005, 4058 posts, RR: 8
Reply 11, posted (9 years 2 months 2 weeks 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 5267 times:

HP will do better with their new Hawaii routes  Wink

User currently offlineCommavia From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 11628 posts, RR: 61
Reply 12, posted (9 years 2 months 2 weeks 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 5241 times:

Quoting HPRamper (Reply 11):
HP will do better with their new Hawaii routes

I think you are 100% correct. On Hawaii routes, HP will face far less comeptition, in a far less volatile market, with much more stable and reliable demand than on the transcon routes. HP is going to do great in Hawaii!


User currently offlineBridogger6 From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 712 posts, RR: 10
Reply 13, posted (9 years 2 months 2 weeks 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 5233 times:

That's funny because I just heard last week we were adding another JFK-LAX transcon flight daily..

User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 32781 posts, RR: 72
Reply 14, posted (9 years 2 months 2 weeks 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 5175 times:

Quoting Commavia (Reply 12):

I think you are 100% correct. On Hawaii routes, HP will face far less comeptition, in a far less volatile market, with much more stable and reliable demand than on the transcon routes. HP is going to do great in Hawaii!

While I agree with your points,Los Angeles-Hawai'i, which US/HP is entering, is served by eight airlines (AA/UA/NW/CO/DL/TZ/HA from LAX and AQ from SNA). It is far from free of compietition.



a.
User currently offlinePhoenixX2 From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 100 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (9 years 2 months 2 weeks 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 5154 times:

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 14):
While I agree with your points,Los Angeles-Hawai'i, which US/HP is entering

US/HP will be flying from their Hubs in PHX and LAS to HNL. They will be up against HA and TZ. Two flights a day from PHX and one from LAS as a starter. LAX will not be in the picture.

Rgds


User currently offlineERJ170 From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 6771 posts, RR: 17
Reply 16, posted (9 years 2 months 2 weeks 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 5138 times:

A350 = CLT/PHL-HNL???? Have PHX-HNL of 330, CTL/PHL-HNL on 350.

Seems like a smart move to me..



Aiming High and going far..
User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 32781 posts, RR: 72
Reply 17, posted (9 years 2 months 2 weeks 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 5073 times:

Quoting PhoenixX2 (Reply 15):
US/HP will be flying from their Hubs in PHX and LAS to HNL. They will be up against HA and TZ. Two flights a day from PHX and one from LAS as a starter. LAX will not be in the picture.

LAX-HNL was clear marked on the route map submitted in the merger proposal to the FEC.

Quoting ERJ170 (Reply 16):
A350 = CLT/PHL-HNL???? Have PHX-HNL of 330, CTL/PHL-HNL on 350.

Seems like a smart move to me..

Putting their low-density A330s on PHX-HNL is just about as dumb as you can get. The Hawai'i routes will use 757s from the west coast. No plans for PHL/CLT-HNL at all, as the widebodies are for the high-yielding Europe routes.

[Edited 2005-07-04 07:01:55]


a.
User currently offlineLegendDC9 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 18, posted (9 years 2 months 2 weeks 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 5057 times:

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 3):
HP was up against everything from United's Premium Service flights to JetBlues frequent departures and reasonable fares. Business travellers seem to be loyal to UA and AA and the lesiure crowd in NYC is very enamoured with JetBlue - add CO out of EWR and Song (replacing DL) with a lot of new capacity, and you have one difficult market.

With all due respect to B6 in LGB, they have noehere near the feed structure that AA/DL/UA have into LAX and that is why HP starting that route was so meaningful to them. You have to remember though that the introduction of Song and UA's P.S. on the LAX/SFO-JFK markets came after HP started these routes. HP was the first new airline on these routes in years created a very significant reaction from the majors who had these routes all to themselves for the longest time. All of a sudden they had some new "punk" on the block trying to take away their customers and they did what they had to do to fight back.


User currently offlineA330323X From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 3039 posts, RR: 43
Reply 19, posted (9 years 2 months 2 weeks 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 5057 times:

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 17):
LAX-HNL was on the route map submitted in the merger proposal.

I think you're confusing it with SAN-HNL.



I'm the expert on here on two things, neither of which I care about much anymore.
User currently offlineFlyboyaz From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 20, posted (9 years 2 months 2 weeks 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 4664 times:

I had also heard that once the merger was approved, the transcon flights would end. The flights are PACKED every day...most of the time overbooked. However as well all know, that doesn't mean anything for yields.

User currently offlineN1120A From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 26493 posts, RR: 75
Reply 21, posted (9 years 2 months 2 weeks 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 4651 times:

Quoting ERJ170 (Reply 16):
Have PHX-HNL of 330, CTL/PHL-HNL on 350.

Besides yield issues, they could have a 762ER on those routes if they want to

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 17):
The Hawai'i routes will use 757s from the west coast.

US needs to ETOPS their rather old 757s to do that. The HP ones, which are apparently destined for ETOPS cert, seem too few for that considering the needs out of PHX and LAS as it is



Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
User currently offlinePVD757 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 3413 posts, RR: 16
Reply 22, posted (9 years 2 months 2 weeks 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 4562 times:

I think it would have made sense for HP to at least wait for the merger approval before canceling the BOS routes. US has a significant presencethere I think they could have filled the planes with Colgan and other connections and survived if not prospered on the route.

User currently offlineB707Stu From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 918 posts, RR: 4
Reply 23, posted (9 years 2 months 2 weeks 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 4227 times:

Quoting Commavia (Reply 4):
With the extreme overcapacity in the markets with B6 on JFK-LGB/OAK and now Song on JFK-LAX/SFO, there just wasn't room for HP, the smallest player in the market. HP also didn't need these routes, as they undercut the new HP-US hubs in PHL and CLT. Besides, nobody needed HP's low fares as B6 and Song were flying these routes. On a somewhat related note, I don't think it will be long before we see DL cut down the Song frequency on JFK-LAX/SFO. There simply is no need for that many 757s a day on these routes -- UA, AA and B6 have these markets covered just fine

I disagree. DL/Song has JFK as its European hub which allows for traffic to LAX/SFO that HP didn't have. They were operating wide bodies a couple times a day to these routes that are now being used for their new Europe routes. With Song as a feeder, Song will definately stay to LAX/SFO and from what I hear, they're beginning to give B6 a run for its money. Don't underestimate Song, it's catching on at JFK like B6 did at the beginning... and with ffqnt flyers who appreciate they can use the Delta miles for intercontinental flights.


User currently offlineDrerx7 From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 5190 posts, RR: 8
Reply 24, posted (9 years 2 months 2 weeks 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 4172 times:

Quoting N1120A (Reply 21):
US needs to ETOPS their rather old 757s to do that. The HP ones, which are apparently destined for ETOPS cert, seem too few for that considering the needs out of PHX and LAS as it is

What will the twice daily and daily run to HNL from PHX and LAS mean for other domestic 757 flying? How many aircraft would be required for those runs? What routes will lose 757s?



Third Coast born, means I'm Texas raised
25 Commavia : B707Stu, please don't misunderstand me -- I don't think that Song is going to completely leave the JFK-LAX and JFK-SFO markets. Both are simply too l
26 N77014 : And worse, they missed opportunities to launch int'l services to Mexico and Canada that might have been higher yielding.
27 A330323X : I don't know why I bother repeating it, but the US 757 fleet is not all that old. There are the 10x ex-EA -225s that are old as dirt, yes. There are
28 Flyboyaz : Someone asked a question concerning the 757's and new Hawaii service in our weekly FAQ section of our employee merger page: Q."With several 757s movin
29 RJpieces : They have so many business/corporate contracts on their LAX/SFO-JFK flights it is not even funny. I've heard that the business traffic on LAX/SFO-JFK
30 Commavia : They are. AA has seen absolutely no impact on its performance in the JFK-LAX/SFO markets from the introduction of UA's P.S. service. In fact, it may
31 Post contains links A330323X : Again, assuming Mark is talking about the route map I think he is, I believe that he's confusing LAX-HNL with SAN-HNL, which does appear on a route m
32 SHUPirate1 : A330323X-What I really want to know is, what airport between Honolulu and Lihue they think they are flying to?
33 PhoenixX2 : Very well put... HP's 752s are most ex-EA, if that gives you any idea how old they are (sister ships to US's first 10). Ten will be ETOPs cert. by th
34 Post contains images A330323X : Who said anything about an airport? It's all about finding destinations that don't have any competition. Yes, though it wasn't voluntarily. They had
35 Midex461 : Um, yes, HP HAS launched some int'l service out of LAX. We fly to YEG and YVR in Canada. In Mexico, we go to MZT, PVR, & ACA. Or are you gonna get ni
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