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A380 Not An Option For KLM  
User currently offlineGlareskin From Netherlands, joined Jun 2005, 1307 posts, RR: 1
Posted (9 years 3 months 3 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 11249 times:

Dutch newspaper De Volkskrant reports this morning about the Lufthansa plans to empasize the First Class travellers. Lufthansa says that 16% of their passengers is business class or first class while these passengers make about 35% of the turnover. Lufthansa aimes for a bigger market-share in the upper-class travellers in order to improve the profits.

Other A380 customers, like SIA, EK and VK think of upgrade the luxury and comfort of business and first class.

Chief of the KLM purchasing dept. Jan Witsenboer says the A380 is not an option for KLM. He says the A380 is cheaper if it's full. KLM wouldn't be able to fill it completely and therefore Boeings 747 is the better option for KLM. KLM doubts if all the A380 customer's plans to install the luxuy will be successful. Witsenboer says that the first 747's also had a bar in the upperdeck, but this option has dissapeared in the years.


There's still a long way to go before all the alliances deserve a star...
60 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineRossbaku From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2005, 673 posts, RR: 1
Reply 1, posted (9 years 3 months 3 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 11128 times:

Quoting Glareskin (Thread starter):
Jan Witsenboer says the A380 is not an option for KLM

That's a real shame. It would have been nice to see an A380 in KLM livery. Anyone got any modified photos of this btw?

Regards,

RossBaku  beady 


User currently offlineJoost From Netherlands, joined Apr 2005, 3171 posts, RR: 4
Reply 2, posted (9 years 3 months 3 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 11119 times:

Quoting Glareskin (Thread starter):
Lufthansa says that 16% of their passengers is business class or first class while these passengers make about 35% of the turnover.

That means that the average fare for business and first is only 2.18 times the average economy fare. Seems like cheap.


User currently offlineLeskova From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 6075 posts, RR: 70
Reply 3, posted (9 years 3 months 3 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 11105 times:

Quoting Joost (Reply 2):
That means that the average fare for business and first is only 2.18 times the average economy fare. Seems like cheap.

Nah... it just shows how expensive LH's Economy Class is... 

As for KLM and the A380 - did anyone here seriously see KLM as a prime contender for the A380? I didn't - I would have been extremely surprised if KLM actually had said that they're interested in it... just doesn't seem like a plane they'd operate to me.

Regards,
Frank

[Edited 2005-07-05 09:32:20]


Smile - it confuses people!
User currently offlineUdo From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 4, posted (9 years 3 months 3 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 11030 times:

Quoting Glareskin (Thread starter):
Jan Witsenboer says the A380 is not an option for KLM. He says the A380 is cheaper if it's full. KLM wouldn't be able to fill it completely and therefore Boeings 747 is the better option for KLM.

No doubt about that. KLM only flies five full-pax B747s, the others are combis.


Regards
Udo


User currently offlineJoost From Netherlands, joined Apr 2005, 3171 posts, RR: 4
Reply 5, posted (9 years 3 months 3 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 10941 times:

It is still interesting to see what KL will use to replace it's 744M's with in the long run. Even if the 747 Adv launches, a combi option will most likely not be available.

I see more 777-200 ER's being added to the fleet, and more dedicated freighters.


User currently offlineMauriceB From Netherlands, joined Aug 2004, 2490 posts, RR: 25
Reply 6, posted (9 years 3 months 3 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 10846 times:

I see more 777-200 ER's being added to the fleet, and more dedicated freighters.

by the time KL replaces its 747-400 , i think there will be a new 777-200 version wich is more fuel efficient... think a KL 747 replacement is about 8/9 years off... they are the flagship and KLM can't go without them...


User currently offlineCslusarc From Canada, joined May 2005, 840 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (9 years 3 months 3 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 10776 times:

Quoting Joost (Reply 5):
I see more 777-200 ER's being added to the fleet, and more dedicated freighters.

Sorry I disagree with the prediction of more 777-200ERs. I think that the 777-200 ER is a bit too small. I think that the 777-300ER would be a better choice. It offers the operator CASM comparable to that of a 747-400. Its a two engine, GE-powered, 350-or-so seat efficient aircraft. Its slightly smaller than the 747-400 and would a bit more versitile for KL. I think that KL will convert the MD-11s into freighers 5-10 years. Following that, the 747-400Ms (and the rest of the 747-400s) will be converted into full freighters within the next 10-15 years or so.



--cslusarc from YWG
User currently offlineFlyAUA From Austria, joined May 2005, 4604 posts, RR: 56
Reply 8, posted (9 years 3 months 3 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 10660 times:

Quoting Glareskin (Thread starter):

Thanks for that article. I must admit I did not expect a different outcome. If they don't have enough passengers to justify an A380 on some routes, there really is no point in using it. It's a shame though, it would have looked great in KLM colours  Sad



Not drinking, also isn't a solution!
User currently offlineFlySSC From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 7415 posts, RR: 57
Reply 9, posted (9 years 3 months 3 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 10650 times:

As a result of the merger with AF, the KLM Freight activity will soon be seperated from the PAX activity, like AF did already a few years ago. Therefor, KLM's B747-Combi should be converted into all PAX a/c or more likely into All Cargo.

And we should see more B772ER and maybe B773ER should replace those B744, but not the A380.

Then AF-Cargo & KLM-Cargo will be probably the first activities to be completely merged into a real single company, with a single name.


User currently offlineRedDragon From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2004, 1135 posts, RR: 6
Reply 10, posted (9 years 3 months 3 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 10619 times:

Quoting Cslusarc (Reply 7):
Sorry I disagree with the prediction of more 777-200ERs. I think that the 777-200 ER is a bit too small. I think that the 777-300ER would be a better choice. It offers the operator CASM comparable to that of a 747-400.

Comparable to a full-passenger 744 perhaps, but the point is that the majority of KLM's 744s are combis, with significantly lower capacities. The 773ER would be a big step up from KLM's current 744M configuration of under 280 seats.

Rich


User currently offlineDutchjet From Netherlands, joined Oct 2000, 7864 posts, RR: 57
Reply 11, posted (9 years 3 months 3 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 10556 times:

Intersting, many assumed that the A380 would end up in the KLM fleet, simply because of the AF connection.

Quoting FlySSC (Reply 9):
As a result of the merger with AF, the KLM Freight activity will soon be seperated from the PAX activity, like AF did already a few years ago. Therefor, KLM's B747-Combi should be converted into all PAX a/c or more likely into All Cargo.

And we should see more B772ER and maybe B773ER should replace those B744, but not the A380.

Then AF-Cargo & KLM-Cargo will be probably the first activities to be completely merged into a real single company, with a single name.

I agree, a few months ago I suggested the same conclusion, but was shot down by many other members. I do think that KLM will evenutally move away from its Combi operations (as most other carriers have already done) with more 744Fs in the fleet.......if pax and cargo operations are seperated, then a 772/773ER mix would be ideal for KL's longhaul operations, and remember the 773ER can haul a lot of cargo as well.

What is interesting is that many airlines, including big 744 operators like KL (and BA and the Japenese carriers and CX) are shying away from the A380 due to its size and number of seats......one would have thought that the large 744 operators would have been the first A380 customers, ordering the type in significant numbers. Even LH, AF, SQ and QF have been quite conservative with the committment to the A380, ordering "only" between 10 and 15 airframes each; dont get me wrong, I think that the A380 will be a success and Airbus will get more orders for the type from existing customers and new customers, but the conservative approach being taken by the airlines is remarkable. Would the world carriers prefer something a bit smaller....say the size of the 747Advanced.....Boeing, make a move.


User currently offlineA388 From Netherlands Antilles, joined May 2001, 9903 posts, RR: 15
Reply 12, posted (9 years 3 months 3 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 10529 times:

I attended a lecture of KLM Cargo Vice-President (Mr. Wishbrun) at the University of Amsterdam. Mr. Wishbrun indicated KLM will eventually separate passenger services from cargo services completely. KLM will eventually have an all-passenger aircraft fleet and an all-cargo (fullfreighter) aircraft fleet. So my guess is KLM will go for a mix of A332/772ER/773ER/744Advanced for long-haul passenger services and 744ERF/772LRF (or even MD11F) for their long-haul cargo services. It wouldn't surprise me if KLM would convert part of their MD11 fleet to fullfreighters.

A388


User currently offlineJet-lagged From United States of America, joined Mar 2002, 874 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (9 years 3 months 3 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 10504 times:

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 11):
one would have thought that the large 744 operators would have been the first A380 customers, ordering the type in significant numbers.

They have the most experience not only just flying the plane, but also finding routes for them and filling them up. So, maybe they means they don't like the downside risk, if they cannot fill enough seats, and prefer to fragment their operations into more frequencies of a bit smaller craft.


User currently offlineDutchjet From Netherlands, joined Oct 2000, 7864 posts, RR: 57
Reply 14, posted (9 years 3 months 3 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 10493 times:

Quoting A388 (Reply 12):
I attended a lecture of KLM Cargo Vice-President (Mr. Wishbrun) at the University of Amsterdam. Mr. Wishbrun indicated KLM will eventually separate passenger services from cargo services completely. KLM will eventually have an all-passenger aircraft fleet and an all-cargo (fullfreighter) aircraft fleet. So my guess is KLM will go for a mix of A332/772ER/773ER/744Advanced for long-haul passenger services and 744ERF/772LRF (or even MD11F) for their long-haul cargo services. It wouldn't surprise me if KLM would convert part of their MD11 fleet to fullfreighters.

A388

Thanks for the info......I too would not be surprised to see all or part of the MD11 fleet being converted to freighters, a 744F/MD11F mix for cargo makes sense and would require only a modest investment.....KL has the MD11s and the 744Combis would be easy to convert to full freighters.

On the pax side, I see a KL A332/772ER/773ER longhaul fleet......with some all pax 744s staying in the fleet for high demand routes - guess what, thats the same longhaul fleet that AF will be flying the future (less the A380s, of course). That works out well!


User currently offlineKEno From Malaysia, joined Feb 2004, 1842 posts, RR: 27
Reply 15, posted (9 years 3 months 3 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 10469 times:

KLM might not get one for themselves, but AMS will be getting their first scheduled A380 service from Malaysia Airlines in 2007 or early 2008.

User currently offlinePlaneSmart From New Zealand, joined Dec 2004, 987 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (9 years 3 months 3 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 10428 times:

Quoting Joost (Reply 2):
That means that the average fare for business and first is only 2.18 times the average economy fare. Seems like cheap.

Upgrades, FF and staff takes their toll. Some airlines like Singapore, BA & Emirates do much better. US-based airlines domestically generate less than 1.0 and internationally (excluding Hawaii & Alaska) struggle to achieve 1.4-1.5

Then factor in the sqm occupied by first and business class, and extra costs (food, service, facilities), for some airlines, upmarket certainly doesn't equal greater profits.


User currently offlineMauriceB From Netherlands, joined Aug 2004, 2490 posts, RR: 25
Reply 17, posted (9 years 3 months 3 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 10383 times:

KLM might not get one for themselves, but AMS will be getting their first scheduled A380 service from Malaysia Airlines in 2007 or early 2008.



and CZ  Smile


User currently offlineHT From Germany, joined May 2005, 6525 posts, RR: 23
Reply 18, posted (9 years 3 months 3 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 10344 times:

Taking the current ownership into account, can we really speculate on KL´s fleet plans w/o taking AF´s fleet (and fleet plans) into consideration ?

How possible would it be to see a KL/AF-hybrid livery (on a A380) ?
a/c could be used on flights to CDG and AMS (alternative days) ...

-HT



Carpe diem ! Life is too short to waste your time ! Keep in mind, that today is the first day of the rest of your life !
User currently offlineFlyAUA From Austria, joined May 2005, 4604 posts, RR: 56
Reply 19, posted (9 years 3 months 3 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 10274 times:

Quoting HT (Reply 18):
How possible would it be to see a KL/AF-hybrid livery (on a A380) ?
a/c could be used on flights to CDG and AMS (alternative days) ...

While I would really like to see this happening, I don't think KLM (as opposed to Air France) has the passengers to fill an A380. Please correct me if I'm wrong...

[Edited 2005-07-05 14:25:14]


Not drinking, also isn't a solution!
User currently offlineKennyK From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2005, 482 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (9 years 3 months 3 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 9889 times:

Give KLM time, if passenger numbers continue to increase at the present rate then the A380 may well be an option in several years time.

As for a combi A380, if the upper deck were kept for passenger use only and the A380F freight door were used for the main deck I'm sure a practical aircraft would be available to replace KLMs 747 combis in the future. The main deck could then be configured for freight/passengers as required. One benefit of this configuration is there is no need for the freight loading equipment to have the extra stretch as is required for the A380F top deck.


User currently offlineSchipholjfk From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 579 posts, RR: 6
Reply 21, posted (9 years 3 months 3 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 9829 times:

Quoting MauriceB (Reply 17):
KLM might not get one for themselves, but AMS will be getting their first scheduled A380 service from Malaysia Airlines in 2007 or early 2008.

Why? The few times that I have flown Malaysia out of AMS (744 or 777), the flights have been barely full (about 3/4 full). How ware they planning to fill a A380 between AMS and KUL?



The fun of flying... love it !!!
User currently offlineMorvious From Netherlands, joined Feb 2005, 707 posts, RR: 1
Reply 22, posted (9 years 3 months 3 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 9426 times:

Quoting Schipholjfk (Reply 21):
Why? The few times that I have flown Malaysia out of AMS (744 or 777), the flights have been barely full (about 3/4 full). How ware they planning to fill a A380 between AMS and KUL?

changing schedules can do the trick.

Its not a big surprise to see this post at all. KLM isn't an A380 customer now, and I beleve it is never.
I think KLM goes with more 777's. 200ER and 300ER versions, and maybe even a good deal for a 777F?
Together with more A330's they will have a nice long haul fleet.
The 747 will be gone when the time is there. Only the remaining 747 ERF's.
My speculations though  Wink.



have a good day, Stefan van Hierden
User currently offlineA388 From Netherlands Antilles, joined May 2001, 9903 posts, RR: 15
Reply 23, posted (9 years 3 months 3 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 9421 times:

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 14):
guess what, thats the same longhaul fleet that AF will be flying the future (less the A380s, of course). That works out well!

I agree with you Dutchjet. If KLM will go for a mix of A332/772ER/773ER/744Advanced for their long-haul passenger services and the 744ERF/772LRF/M11F for cargo flights it will be an almost 100% match with Air France's long-haul fleet. It also wouldn't surprise me if Air France will 'combine flights' with KLM on some days/services using the A380. KLM itself might not be able to fill a entire A380 but if they combine flights with Air France, the A380 can definately be used from AMS as well. CDG and AMS are not that far apart, so combining some A380 flights from these two hubs can be an option.

A388


User currently offlineIkramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 21544 posts, RR: 59
Reply 24, posted (9 years 3 months 3 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 9156 times:

What a pointless prospect. To justify the overcapacity of the A380 for KLM, the two airlines would combine flights to the point of making life harder on their pax and making things less direct? Is that what the A380 was intended for? I don't think so. It's meant for routes that can use as much capacity as they can get. If KLM does not have such routes, there's no reason for them to "try to make it work."


Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
25 FlySSC : I don't see the B747Adv (if ever it is launched) in KLM's fleet. A PAX a/c fleet similar to AF's is more likely with A332/B772ER/B773ER/B744 + the A38
26 Dsa : This is a real surprise, I really wanted to see the A380 in KLM Livery
27 FlyAUA : I feel that both statements are correct. KLM cannot fill a 747, let alone an A380. If I were to take a shot at what I think they will have in the fut
28 Post contains images KEno : Well, they have to send those 6x A380 that they ordered somewhere! . LHR, SYD and AMS are the only 3 cities where MH send their 747s on a daily basis
29 Post contains images YULWinterSkies : KLM does not have First Class, whereas AF does. That's one more reason why I do not see this happen. So why are you guys speculating about 773ER to r
30 Post contains images Jacobin777 : I'm not too sure if there is ever going to be more "combi" fleets.....the certification process is expensive, and it certainly won't be done for the
31 LTBEWR : Another issue for KLM as to the A380 (and for other airlines as well) is that they believe they may not have enough demand for such a/c capacity to wa
32 Post contains links and images Glareskin : And this was the picture that goed with the newspaper article. The text: "The interior of one of the first A380 aircraft that rolled out of the Toulo
33 Post contains images FlyAUA : WOW WOW WOW Thanks for that article! They really do look like what they bragged on about in the beginning
34 Post contains images Ikramerica : Remember, anytime you see seats that look like that, it's some design student's fantasy, but it will never make it on a real plane. What exactly is th
35 Jetter2 : I think the A380 is a waste of money. From what I can tell, the only liners that will REALLY and TRULY profit from the huge A380 are the massive 744 o
36 Post contains images Jacobin777 : where is the swimming pool?
37 Post contains images FlyAUA : Udo... let me take care of this First of all, if you think you are smarter than the 13 companies that have already purchased the A380, I suggest you
38 Jetter2 : Each person is entilted to their own opinion. Everyone wants to do more, cheaper. If the A380 can do that, more power to them but I still don't like
39 FlyAUA : That's fair enough and I respect your opinion. Personally I don't think any airplanes look ugly! But the thing is, after letting us know your opinion
40 Post contains images Udo : I'd rather see my money being spent for commercial projects with a real chance than for senseless adventures in the desert... AF is far from being am
41 Post contains images FlyAUA : I knew you'd never let me down Indeed you have even better arguments than mine. You never cease to amaze me
42 Post contains images Klm685 : OMG!!! Why did someone never told me about Acapulco being a mass 744 operator? I would like to go there and take pictures of that! Acapulco ordering
43 Theredbaron : KLM flight from AMS to MEX is always booked to the flaps!!! I wonder If the LH and the AF orders of the 380 have something to do with this. I am sure
44 Post contains images MauriceB : think that KL is actually right on this one, i mean they only have 5 full pax 747's , and since combi's aren't alloud to be build anymore there is a v
45 Redflyer : I have to disagree with you on that one FlyAUA - the world IS Airbus and Boeing. Isn't that why we get up in the mornings and log on to A.net??? Udo,
46 Post contains images A388 : Let's stay on-topic here. I've seen a few good remarks in this thread. As for my idea of KLM and Air France combining flights, it was only a suggestio
47 MD-90 : FlyAUA, you're very new here too, buddy...
48 RedFlyer : Agreed, it was a good suggestion. But I wonder why AF feels it can utilize the 380 while KL can't. If anything, I would have thought KL has more robu
49 KLM685 : I'll look the number for you tomorrow Cheers Alonsou
50 Post contains images Lehpron : The first and last sentence contradict. As if when the 747 had growth (discovered in hindsight) to occupy the remainder of the plane, that purchasing
51 Post contains images Glareskin : Sorry Lehpron, but I was just quoting the article. So your reaction should say: quoting Witsenboer or quoting De Volkskrant. regards, Glareskin
52 Vunz : I'm sure this has been discussed many time and forgive me my ignorance, but what's the problem with combi's? Why aren't they allowed anymore? KL has a
53 Post contains images Zvezda : There is little chance of any combis being converted to either passenger or cargo variants for the simple reason that no more can be certified. Anyon
54 Post contains images Lehpron : No prob bob. I did notice that if the CEo of KLM doubts the ideas of others will work, unless they have been benchmarked as one of the wise best, tha
55 SK601 : Why can KLM not fill up a A380?? I read in some post that that could be the problem for KL. I really don't see why! FlyAUA even says that KL cannot fi
56 Shenzhen : Doesn't it really come down to risk vs reward. The last 10 years has shown that there is a lot of risk, (Asian Economic Crisis, 9/11, SARS) and all of
57 Post contains images FlySSC : Zevda reply #53 : There is little chance for any Combis being converted to either Passenger or Cargo variants for the simple reason that no more can
58 Post contains images FlyAUA : Umm... yeah and I obviously have experienced more (I spend a lot of time here) in the last 43 days than some who have been members for several years
59 A388 : I agree, the 744 (whether they are full pax or combis) can all be converted to fullfreighter. Boeing offers this to airlines, it's the 747-400SF (Spec
60 Glareskin : I agree, KLM seems very conservative in their thinking. The opposite of EK so to speak......
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