Stirling From Italy, joined Jun 2004, 3943 posts, RR: 31 Posted (6 years 10 months 3 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 5290 times:
In the Gregory Peck/Audrey Hepburn classic "Roman Holiday", a short scene about mid-way through the film shows an aircraft on the ground at the airport in Rome. Whatever it is, I have never seen one before. It is such a quick thing, it's hard to get a real good look at it.
It looks like a Constellation, but sits much lower to the ground..twin engined and twin or triple tail. That's all I can give. I have searched all over the web with no luck. At first I thought it was the original design for a DC-4...
What manufacturers were around in Europe at the time (1953) making passenger aircraft?
Did Italy have an aircraft industry at the time?
I thought it might be French...but my searches have turned up nothing.
Any ideas are appreciated, wish I could offer more.
MakeMinesLAX From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 506 posts, RR: 0 Reply 1, posted (6 years 10 months 3 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 5228 times:
DH106 From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2005, 621 posts, RR: 2 Reply 2, posted (6 years 10 months 3 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 5168 times:
I've been meaning to ask this very question myself - the scene where all the men in black arrive from the Princess's own country.
In the nose-on shots the windshield looks very Connie like as do the tail fins but it's clearly not a Connie. The windshield layout would seem to rule out the Breuget 793 I think.
No, Unfortunately that is not it. The mystery aircraft is more long and slender looking...very graceful, and not fat and stubby. But I was searching around for other aircraft made by Breguet....
Quoting DH106 (Reply 2): the scene where all the men in black arrive from the Princess's own country.
Yes that is exactly right! I am glad I'm not the only old-movie buff on here!
Quoting DH106 (Reply 2): I remembered it as a quad
You know, it could very well be a quad. It was a very quick shot, hard to get a good look.
Quoting DH106 (Reply 2): Must watch it again tonight
If you could, that would be great! I checked the listings here in the States, and it's not going to be on again for awhile.
My heart cries over the events of what happened in your country this morning. Even if I hadn't spent a lot of time in that neighborhood (Aldgate)last year, it is still a very horrible thing....but more real, and more painful, when it's part of one's own fabric of experience.
A senseless tragedy.
DH106 From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2005, 621 posts, RR: 2 Reply 4, posted (6 years 10 months 3 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 5072 times:
Quoting Stirling (Reply 3): If you could, that would be great! I checked the listings here in the States, and it's not going to be on again for awhile.
I have it on DVD Love that film - call me a feel good softy
Quoting Stirling (Reply 3): My heart cries over the events of what happened in your country this morning.
Thanks Stirling - I don't live in London but likewise my heart goes out to those who do and have been affected.
...I watched c-beams glitter in the dark near the Tanhauser Gate....
My username is taken directly from the town of the same just down the M9 from the current G8 summit.
Nonsense about my ancestors....real unimportant right now.
I am thinking it could be a converted WWII bomber...some were converted into passenger aircraft after the war....But I seem to remember those were mostly tail-draggers and did not have not tricycle landing gear....the aircraft in the movie definitely had tricycle landing gear.
Gr8SlvrFlt From United States of America, joined Jan 2002, 1565 posts, RR: 18 Reply 6, posted (6 years 10 months 3 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 5036 times:
That is closer than anything I've found! The tail assembly looks very close, as a matter of fact, it's the only part of the aircraft that gets more than a couple of seconds of camera time.
Good Job! Thank you VERY much.
Since I don't own the movie, I can't pause it and see for sure...and the next time it comes on TCM is in September...oh well, I might just have to go and purchase it.
Gr8SlvrFlt From United States of America, joined Jan 2002, 1565 posts, RR: 18 Reply 9, posted (6 years 10 months 3 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 4949 times:
It is a beautiful bird, er oisseau! Notice in the tail view how the wing is shoulder-mounted rather than below the cabin....very interesting. I love the canted endplates as well. BTW, 45 Bretagnes were built and Air France operated them from 1951-1959. They were also operated by Air Algerie and the French military. They carried between 30 & 43 passengers and were the first French airliners with pressurized cabins and tricycle landing gear.
DH106 From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2005, 621 posts, RR: 2 Reply 11, posted (6 years 10 months 3 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 4843 times:
Here's 2 admittably poor quality stills:-
Nose view:-
So - definitely 4 engines, and note the 2 small nose wheels unlike the large single nose wheel of the Bretagne in the piccies above. It has twin fins/rudders and large single main wheels. The tailplane has a very slight dihedral
Also note the strange looking many-windowed windshield.
Side view of rear fuz / tail
Note the fins are effectively end plates to the tailplane - there's no small tailplane extensions outboard of the fins as in the Bretagne
The main gear door cutouts indicate that the large single wheels retract backwards but protude somewhat.
The plane definitely has the air of a French late 40's/early 50's design.
Anyone any ideas then ??
...I watched c-beams glitter in the dark near the Tanhauser Gate....
ExFATboy From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 2974 posts, RR: 11 Reply 12, posted (6 years 10 months 3 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 4779 times:
From the front, it looks (except for the twin tail) sort of like a Bristol Brittania, but the side rear view is all wrong.
I'm officially stumped...is it possible it's a prototype of some sort that never sold?
Stirling From Italy, joined Jun 2004, 3943 posts, RR: 31 Reply 13, posted (6 years 10 months 3 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 4752 times:
Excellent job DH106!
I will agree it certainly does have a French Flavor to the design. As if from the same family as the Bretagne....with subtle differences...the tailplane is not canted inward like the Bretagne either.
Notice how low it sits to the ground, especially in the rear.
I wonder if the coat of arms is real, or a product of the movie's design director. Maybe it's a clue, maybe it's not.
I would sure love to know what this girl is. And how the producers of the movie came to use her. It was never shown in flight, so, we can assume all she had to do was taxi past the camera....which maybe gives a clue to an Italian design? Maybe she was sitting unused off in a corner of the Rome airport...and was rented on the cheap? Passenger aircraft were still a somewhat exotic thing in Europe in those days, just 7 years after the war...
Maybe a "proper" aircraft could not be found?
I have looked at designs by Savoia-Marchetti, but nothing matches of yet.
Thanks for all the help gentlemen. There's nothing like a good mystery!
AvroArrow From Canada, joined Sep 2001, 1029 posts, RR: 1 Reply 14, posted (6 years 10 months 3 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 4707 times:
I have no idea other than it is most likely European and it isn't pressurized judging by the nice big square windows and of course the age of the plane. I found these two, neither of which is really that close, but if you take the tail off of this one: http://1000aircraftphotos.com/Contributions/Trempe/1987.htm
and put it on this one: http://1000aircraftphotos.com/Contributions/Visschedijk/2937.htm
You get something close. The first is a SNCASE SE 161 Lanquedoc and the second is a Sud-Est S.E.2010 Armagnac. So perhaps our mystery plane is a development of one of these?
Give me a mile of road and I can take you a mile. Give me a mile of runway and I can show you the world.
DH106 From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2005, 621 posts, RR: 2 Reply 15, posted (6 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 4620 times:
What a mystery !
Quoting Stirling (Reply 13): Maybe she was sitting unused off in a corner of the Rome airport...
True, but of course there's no guarantee that that brief scene was filmed in Rome. In fact there's a close up shot of the tail immediately before the tail shot above in which a DC-3 with the reg. F-OAIG (I think - slightly blurred) is visible, so perhaps it's in France. No guarantee the DC-3 is on home turf though either. It's a shame no reg. no. is visible on the mystery plane itself.
Quoting AvroArrow (Reply 14): The first is a SNCASE SE 161 Lanquedoc and the second is a Sud-Est S.E.2010 Armagnac.
Yes - I found these too. There are some good similarities here, the shape of the Lanquedoc's tail especially. I can't believe that any manufacturer could build a 4 engined airliner of this size - even if it's just a prototype like the DC-4E - and there not be some reference or trace of it some where !
I'll keep digging
...I watched c-beams glitter in the dark near the Tanhauser Gate....
AvroArrow From Canada, joined Sep 2001, 1029 posts, RR: 1 Reply 18, posted (6 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 4514 times:
I was wondering if it might be 2 different aircraft as well since the thick cross section of the front of the aircraft in the first shot doesn't seem to mesh with the thinner looking tail. However I believe that the similarities in the tail and undercarriage in both shots make it likely to be the same aircraft. If you can find a photo of a Breguet 482, a prototype French WW2 bomber, it has some similar fuselage hallmarks, more bulbous up front and quite narrow by the tail. I think this the mystery plane is probably French, but then again I could be wrong about most of what I have said and found so far.
Give me a mile of road and I can take you a mile. Give me a mile of runway and I can show you the world.
Note the DC-3 reg. F-OAIG (I think) in the background and on the extreme right the first couple of letters of the only visible markings on the plane - I make the top row to be 'BZ' or 'B2' and the letters underneath to be 'MMG' or 'MM6'. Does this mean anything to anyone ? Is one of these rows part of a serial or reg?
And good detail on the coat of arms - but I suppose it's made up. Any coats of arms experts?
More distant shots of the rear fuz & tail. Note the ventral airstair !!
You can also see the 2 lines of text mentioned above, but not readable here.
Note the DC-3 seems to have vanished Continuity error !
The men in black disembark.
Note how long, thin and spike-like the rear fuz tapers to behind the tailplane.
Well - I've still no clue !!
Best guess is some sort of prototype that never went into production, but there's a lot of info on the net about such types - French and others and I've yet to find anything that comes close.... :-|
...I watched c-beams glitter in the dark near the Tanhauser Gate....
Justplanesmart From United States of America, joined Mar 2001, 684 posts, RR: 2 Reply 20, posted (6 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 4491 times:
Quoting DH106 (Reply 19): the letters underneath to be 'MMG' or 'MM6'. Does this mean anything to anyone ?
Italian Military aircraft have registrations beginning with "MM", and most transport types seem to begin with "MM6", but I cannot find any further information about this type.
Gr8SlvrFlt From United States of America, joined Jan 2002, 1565 posts, RR: 18 Reply 22, posted (6 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 4440 times:
This one is driving me crazy! It has a Convair-ish look but apparently the film was shot entirely on location in Rome. The wings/engines look like they're from a DC-4 except for the extremely short landing gear. Given the political climate of the time, I doubt it is Russian. That pretty much leaves the French, English and Italians. Could it be some sort of trick photography or special effects? Maybe it's a model?
Possible I guess, but why go to all that expense of making a huge model when the hiring of a plane like that for say 1 day max to shoot this scene with no flying required would surely have been less.
My gut feeling is that this is some failed, obscure prototype that perhaps happened to be present in Italy - probably Rome - at the time of shooting and was in reasonably smart & taxiable condition. Less expensive to hire than a 'real' airliner. What do you think?
...I watched c-beams glitter in the dark near the Tanhauser Gate....
Stirling From Italy, joined Jun 2004, 3943 posts, RR: 31 Reply 24, posted (6 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 4383 times:
Quoting DH106 (Reply 23): My gut feeling is that this is some failed, obscure prototype that perhaps happened to be present in Italy - probably Rome - at the time of shooting and was in reasonably smart & taxiable condition. Less expensive to hire than a 'real' airliner. What do you think?
I think that is probably the correct answer.
But what on earth could it be!?
Unfortunately most people that worked on the film are since deceased..I've been checking! Wow.
Tjr16698 From Italy, joined Feb 2004, 60 posts, RR: 0 Reply 26, posted (6 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 4362 times:
1 example built in 1948, carried 80 passengers. Its first flight was 27th August '48 and the pilot was Mario Stoppani. Engines are 4 Bristol Centaurus 568s. The reg was MM 61802.
here's the source info: http://www.aerei-italiani.net/SchedeT/aereobz308.html
On this site http://www.otto-ruote.it/stampa/msg00024.php
it says that following the war, the allies impeded its production to stop competition with their own manufacturers, may be something in it, who knows. anyway soon after the factory closed down.
It's in Italian, but I'll try to give a summary translation below. Apologies to real Italians for any inaccuracies.
The designer, Filippo Zappata was famous for his pre-war flying boats.
OK, here we go.
In its construction, from '46 to '48 it was the focus of the hopes - and illusions - of the workers of Breda [nr. Milan] of saving the aeronautic industry and the entire industrial complex of Breda after the war.
"It was big, cutting edge" remembers Carlo Talamucci with enthusiasm. At the time an ex-partisan and technical drawer on the project. "orders were to arrive from around the world, and Italy would be amongst the leaders in aircraft construction. The Bz was hope. It was tomorrow. For this reason, when the first model was being built, the fuselage was paraded through Sesto San Giovanni (a town) and it seemed like the patron saint day. People clapped their hands, children with their eyes wide."
In the immediate post-war period, still full of ideological tension following the fight of the partisans, it was still thought that the ...[future]... would be driven from the factory floor, while the managing classes waited [and even went on strike]. The Bz became the demonstration of the hard work, technical capability and patriotism of the milan workers....
"We quickly re-built the bombed out factory" says Talamucci "exactly because the Bz would save us/ There was enthusiasm and team spirit. Ours was the only canteen where white collar, blue collar and tecnical staff ate all together. Then the sabotage started [presumably management driven] delays in engine deliveries, reduced working hours etc and the plane made its first test flight only in '48. In 1950 we received orders from India, Argentina, Persia but it was too late. The factory closed in 1951. The US were leaders in aircraft construction and we had lost the war. If we wanted help in reconstruction we had to withdraw from certain fields, and the Bz paid the price of us having American help.
It wasn't just the interests of the American airplane industry however that clipped their wings. [here the article talks about post-war shortages of raw materials, electricity, modern machinery for mass-production, too many people in the workforce, resulting from a desire to employ as many ex-soldiers and ex-deportees as possible. Adding to this was disorganisation, and a system that was based around an uneconomic model that only worked during a war in a fascist state]
On the 27th August 1948 the Bz 308 made its maiden flight, infrunt of civil and military authorities, politicians and the Italian President. Only the prototype was completed, which passed to the Italian Air Force in 1950 and was used to fly between Rome and Mogadishu until one day, following damage during a poor landing, it was abandoned in a field in Somalia.
So that's it. Sad story!
Hope this is of use, and apologies for the loose translation.
Cheers
Russ
DH106 From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2005, 621 posts, RR: 2 Reply 34, posted (6 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 4259 times:
Thanks Russ.
It's really sad when post war politcs interferes with such great projects.
So it ended up derelict in Somalia ? This must have been after the filming then.
I found this site as well. It's in italian but has great pictures:-
Tjr16698 From Italy, joined Feb 2004, 60 posts, RR: 0 Reply 37, posted (6 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 4180 times:
Hi Stirling.
Just found out from the Italian air force website that unfortunately this beauty was broken up in Somalia in 1954. The forced landing only did minor damage, but there were no spare parts available. Here's the website, not surprisingly in italian, but the above is a summary of the small part that concerns our subject. http://www.aeronautica.difesa.it/Sit....asp?idsez=21&idarg=23&idente=1394
One more tidbit is that the fuselage was built in the early 40s then was stored safely, surviving the destruction of the factory by heavy bombing, to be then used as the focus of all the activities mentioned above. A real phoenix...
DH106 From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2005, 621 posts, RR: 2 Reply 38, posted (6 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 4160 times:
Quoting Tjr16698 (Reply 37): here's an illustration showing her full length in her final livery. elegance indeed.
Lovely sleek, elegant shape.
Bet it was quite an efficient design for the time - looks aerodynamic.
No wonder they weren't 'allowed' to build it !
Roman Holiday was released in 1953, so I guess they must have filmed in 51/52 perhaps, before the Air Force took it on.
One shot shows a broken propeller with 3 blades shattered, and a wheel lying on the ground in front. Could this be the Somalia accident, or perhaps an earlier mishap ?
[Edited 2005-07-09 00:56:03]
...I watched c-beams glitter in the dark near the Tanhauser Gate....
Stirling From Italy, joined Jun 2004, 3943 posts, RR: 31 Reply 40, posted (6 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 4135 times:
Quoting DH106 (Reply 38): One shot shows a broken propeller with 3 blades shattered, and a wheel lying on the ground in front. Could this be the Somalia accident, or perhaps an earlier mishap ?
AvroArrow From Canada, joined Sep 2001, 1029 posts, RR: 1 Reply 42, posted (6 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 4108 times:
Tjr16698, you are the man!! Excellent work, and a beautiful aircraft as well. Too bad it didn't meet with more success in its life, though it sounds like its failure was not due to any shortcomings on its part. Glad someone worked this out, now I'll sleep better tonight.
Give me a mile of road and I can take you a mile. Give me a mile of runway and I can show you the world.
Tjr16698 From Italy, joined Feb 2004, 60 posts, RR: 0 Reply 43, posted (6 years 10 months 2 weeks 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 4030 times:
Hi guys
Hope you got some sleep last night.
Just looked at the photo you mentioned of the broken prop and wheel mentioned above - here's the photo for those who haven't seen it http://www.associazioni.milano.it/is...pagine/1945-59/Bz308/pincident.htm
It's not Somalia, but happened at he factory in 1948 during a trial non-flight run down the runway.
Cheers
Tjr16698 From Italy, joined Feb 2004, 60 posts, RR: 0 Reply 45, posted (6 years 10 months 2 weeks 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 3952 times:
and a final thing - I just noticed that there's an original pic of the Bz on sale on EBay UK by someone called transmil in London. Found this out from another websearch. There's a thumbnail to look at too. The "interesting hangar" he mentions looks like the factory where she was built to me, judging by some of the earlier photos.
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Will try and post a piccie for those interested.
Love that film - call me a feel good softy 
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