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PIA Route Network Update  
User currently offlineBehramjee From Canada, joined Aug 2003, 4755 posts, RR: 43
Posted (9 years 3 weeks 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 4611 times:

PIA has decided to relaunch twice weekly A 310-300 operated flights to SIN and KUL respectively from KHI. These flights begin this week on Tuesdays and Fridays.

Once a week KHI-SIN-KUL-SIN-KHI and once a week following in the footsteps of AIs much beloved bus routes of the Far East...KHI-BKK-KUL-SIN-KUL-BKK-KHI.

The LAX update is that the tentative launch is slated for March 2006 according to a PIA PR Executive based in their Lahore-LHE office.

40 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineThe777Man From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 6500 posts, RR: 55
Reply 1, posted (9 years 3 weeks 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 4578 times:

Thanks for the update!

Any idea what routing will be used for the LAX route ?

The777Man



Need a Boeing 777 Firing Order....Further to fly....CI, MU, LX and LH 777s
User currently offlineBY738 From Tonga, joined Sep 2000, 2266 posts, RR: 1
Reply 2, posted (9 years 3 weeks 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 4512 times:

What about the long rumoured GLA route......

User currently offlineIkramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 21474 posts, RR: 60
Reply 3, posted (9 years 3 weeks 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 4474 times:

Why does KHI need the 772LR? Is it to carry a full cargo payload on the KHI-LAX flight? Nothing else is really long enough that a 772ER wouldn't be fine. Even JFK is shorter than LAX, as you go west instead of east.


Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
User currently offlineBehramjee From Canada, joined Aug 2003, 4755 posts, RR: 43
Reply 4, posted (9 years 3 weeks 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 4312 times:

Quoting The777Man (Reply 1):
Any idea what routing will be used for the LAX route ?

2 options being considered by PIA :

a) KHI-PVG-LAX with full 5th freedom rights with B 772ER
b) KHI-PVG nonstop with B 772LR

GLA route has been rumored for so long now that its not worth even giving it any sort of creditibility what so ever!!!

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 3):

Why does KHI need the 772LR? Is it to carry a full cargo payload on the KHI-LAX flight? Nothing else is really long enough that a 772ER wouldn't be fine. Even JFK is shorter than LAX, as you go west instead of east.

PIAs B 772LRs are meant to be used on such routes :

a) KHI-LHE/ISB-JFK
b) KHI-LHE-ORD
c) KHI-LHE-YYZ
d) KHI-IAH...this route should be suspended from this September due to its heavy losses
e) KHI-JFK


User currently offlineDrerx7 From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 5162 posts, RR: 8
Reply 5, posted (9 years 3 weeks 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 4274 times:

Quoting Behramjee (Reply 4):
d) KHI-IAH...this route should be suspended from this September due to its heavy losses

Is this factual or opinion?



Third Coast born, means I'm Texas raised
User currently offlineN77014 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 6, posted (9 years 3 weeks 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 4227 times:

Quoting Behramjee (Reply 4):
Quoting The777Man (Reply 1):
Any idea what routing will be used for the LAX route ?

2 options being considered by PIA :

a) KHI-PVG-LAX with full 5th freedom rights with B 772ER
b) KHI-PVG nonstop with B 772LR

Considering how poorly PK allegedly markets its IAH-MAN sector, would it matter to anyone that there was a new entrant in the PVG-LAX market?


User currently offlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 17352 posts, RR: 46
Reply 7, posted (9 years 3 weeks 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 4212 times:

Quoting N77014 (Reply 6):
Considering how poorly PK allegedly markets its IAH-MAN sector, would it matter to anyone that there was a new entrant in the PVG-LAX market?

It's not in the schedule after September so far as I can tell.



E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently offlineIkramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 21474 posts, RR: 60
Reply 8, posted (9 years 3 weeks 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 4104 times:

Quoting Behramjee (Reply 4):
PIAs B 772LRs are meant to be used on such routes :

a) KHI-LHE/ISB-JFK
b) KHI-LHE-ORD
c) KHI-LHE-YYZ
d) KHI-IAH...this route should be suspended from this September due to its heavy losses
e) KHI-JFK

why do they need LR on these routes? ER would suffice for all of them. The only one that needs an LR for economic payloads is KHI-LAX.

Considering they only ordered 2 772LR, I can see them using it on this route, and on a couple other long routes to keep them in the air when not going to or from LAX.



Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
User currently offlineDavid_itl From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2001, 7363 posts, RR: 14
Reply 9, posted (9 years 3 weeks 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 3983 times:
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Quoting N77014 (Reply 6):
Considering how poorly PK allegedly markets its IAH-MAN sector,

which is not that surprising given that they have no rights for the sector!

David


User currently offlineDrerx7 From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 5162 posts, RR: 8
Reply 10, posted (9 years 3 weeks 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 3957 times:

So they don't have rights on the flight? Why haven't they gotten them then?


Third Coast born, means I'm Texas raised
User currently offlineFiaz From Canada, joined Mar 2005, 94 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (9 years 3 weeks 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 3934 times:
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I have allso heard from a very good source that PIA will be using the LR's for 3 main routes


1) KHI-ISB-LAX
2) KHI-ISB - YYZ non stop ( approx 15 hrs)
3) KHI-LHR - JKF (non stop)


User currently offlineShawnnyc From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 241 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (9 years 3 weeks 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 3920 times:

Quoting Fiaz (Reply 11):

1) KHI-ISB-LAX
2) KHI-ISB - YYZ non stop ( approx 15 hrs)
3) KHI-LHR - JKF (non stop)

I can see the YYZ and JFK routes happening nonstop but not LAX (unless it is for very low frequency like 2 X). LA has too small of a pakistani population, like Houston, so the route would be very seasonal and touristy. JFK would be ideal as NYC would probably have the most business traffic to Pakistan. That said, given the lack of European airlines flying into Pakistan, I think a better strategy for PIA would be to find a good transit point in Europe where they can exploit 5th freedom traffic.


User currently offlineDrerx7 From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 5162 posts, RR: 8
Reply 13, posted (9 years 3 weeks 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 3901 times:

The key is marketing--PIA doesn't do it which is a big reason why the flights to IAH don't do as well--besides it being thin market anyway.


Third Coast born, means I'm Texas raised
User currently offlineDavid_itl From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2001, 7363 posts, RR: 14
Reply 14, posted (9 years 3 weeks 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 3837 times:
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Quoting Drerx7 (Reply 10):
Why haven't they gotten them then?

They are allowed transatlantic rights from MAN on only 6 flights a week and they've chosen to use them on 4 JFK services and 2 ORD services. However, they are negotiating to gain unlimited rights from MAN.

David


User currently offlineLear777 From United States of America, joined Jun 1999, 290 posts, RR: 4
Reply 15, posted (9 years 3 weeks 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 3810 times:

A little premature here on a few things...

First of all, PIA is not cutting Houston, at least not in 2005. Online reservations show WED/SUN flights until September, WED only until Nov, then SUN only till January 1. This is consistent with what they did last year. I have confirmed this by contacting folks at the airport and with the airline. Come January, the flight will be reviewed and we'll see from there.

Second, the loads have gone up. This summer was better than last summer (especially in the premium cabins) and ideally the trend would continue. The problem, though, is winter. Loads are low Sept-March, and there needs to be a remedy for that. I don't think 1X a week is the answer, but that's just me.

The Manchester stop is a big part of the problem. There's no rights ex-MAN to IAH, as has been mentioned in this thread. The ability to carry MAN-IAH traffic will help...might not be the saving grace, but it will help.

I think PIA is not cutting this route for a few reasons. They really believe there is a market, and I tend to agree. They probably want to exploit it ahead of Air India if it can be done. If MAN opens up, traffic will rise. Also, the potential for non-stop flights to Houston is an intrigiung prospect. It would open a number of possibilities, not only for the quickest way to get to the subcontinent, but also to oil destinations all over the Mid-East and CIS.

The next few months will tell us a lot, but don't write off PIA in Houston so soon.

Brian



Go Astros!
User currently offlineLear777 From United States of America, joined Jun 1999, 290 posts, RR: 4
Reply 16, posted (9 years 3 weeks 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 3789 times:

Forgot to mention- as far as advertising goes, yes it does suck. Houston is not even on their online route map. That being said, I have seen a few ads in the Chronicle and This Week section.

It would be nice for some big billboards to spring up and a TV spot to go on, but a number of IAH airlines can't claim either of those as well.

Brian



Go Astros!
User currently offlineShawnnyc From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 241 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (9 years 3 weeks 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 3759 times:

Quoting Lear777 (Reply 15):
They really believe there is a market, and I tend to agree. They probably want to exploit it ahead of Air India if it can be done.

Um, AI and PIA don't really compete on any routes. Very few Indians would fly PIA to India (maybe they get like 10 pax per flight). So AI coming is not figuring into PIAs plans at all (and no Indian airline would view PIA as competition). Plus using AI as a comp doesn't work in the US. The India-US market is totally different than the Pakistan-US market as well as the difference of the Pakistani-American population centers and Indian-American population centers. In my opinion PIA just messed up. They used anecdotal evidence that the Houston Pakistani population was significantly higher than what the US census said. They should have gone daily from JFK and just brought pax in from IAH.


User currently offlineSR 103 From United States of America, joined Sep 2000, 1740 posts, RR: 39
Reply 18, posted (9 years 3 weeks 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 3702 times:

Quoting Shawnnyc (Reply 17):
AI and PIA don't really compete on any routes. Very few Indians would fly PIA to India (maybe they get like 10 pax per flight). So AI coming is not figuring into PIAs plans at all (and no Indian airline would view PIA as competition).

Considering Lear777's former roommate is Indian, I would hope he would know this stuff!  biggrin 

Quoting Lear777 (Reply 15):
They probably want to exploit it ahead of Air India if it can be done

Maybe you could tell us what PK could "exploit" over AI cause I really can not think of anything. Maybe the IAH-MAN route, but how much O&D is there really on that route? Can't imagine it being a high number.

Quoting Lear777 (Reply 15):
A little premature here on a few things

Bri, don't fight Behram on this issue too much, he "knows" upper level management at PIA.

SR 103


User currently offlineBehramjee From Canada, joined Aug 2003, 4755 posts, RR: 43
Reply 19, posted (9 years 3 weeks 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 3655 times:

Quoting Shawnnyc (Reply 17):
Very few Indians would fly PIA to India

My friend you are living in a dream world...over half of PIAs BOM and DEL flights are filled with Indians living in the Gulf states as PIA is a cheap Y and J class option for them via KHI !!! Indians dont need a transit visa for PAK and till today I havent heard or read of any Indian complaining about PIA and I have 4 BOM Parsi family members who fly PIA BOM-KHI-BOM J and Y class twice a year and they always say its good and no hassle is given what so ever to Indians.

To clear up a few matters on PIA's 5th freedom rights across the Atlantic. PIA has no 5th freedom rights on the following trans-atlantic routes :

PK 711-712 SAT MAN-JFK-MAN

PK 713-714 WED MAN-IAH-MAN

PK 723-724 THU MAN-JFK-MAN

PK 789-790 TUE MAN-YYZ-MAN

PK 781-782 FRI MAN-YYZ-MAN

This basically means that the 2 weekly MAN-ORD-MAN flights have full 5th freedom rights but only 2 out of 4 weekly MAN-JFK-MAN flights have 5th freedom rights. This piece of information I have copied down from a PIA notice sent to the local YYZ agents and was in effect from June 5th 2004.

Quoting Lear777 (Reply 15):
First of all, PIA is not cutting Houston, at least not in 2005

I never said that they are cutting IAH...what I said was that they should cut IAH because it is a big money losing route for them and everyone knows that. Its a route where there is so much potential yet so much hopelessness involved on the part of PIA.

The problem is that PIAs IAH flights do not connect via KHI to BOM-DEL-CMB-DAC and if it did then yes this flight would be much better loads. PIA have only looked at IAH from an O&D standpoint and have not bothered with targetting 6th freedom movement from IAH via KHI to India especially.


User currently offlineLt-AWACS From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 20, posted (9 years 3 weeks 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 3624 times:

Well, I fly IAH-MAN (via EWR on CO) about once every 8 months, and there are usually a handful of folks doing the same. Granted one flight is not all encompassing, but I am sure PIA could get some 5th freedom travel from IAH that would help with yields. But I would hope the airline would have smarter biz/marketing folks trying to get the most out of their airplanes. Is the 5th freedom worth a dozen or so pax a flight? I do not know, but would think yes. Good info BTW.

Ciao, and Hook 'em Horns,
Capt-AWACS, I'll take Italian Opera for $500 Alex


User currently offlineShawnnyc From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 241 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (9 years 3 weeks 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 3538 times:

Quoting Behramjee (Reply 19):
My friend you are living in a dream world...over half of PIAs BOM and DEL flights are filled with Indians living in the Gulf states as PIA is a cheap Y and J class option for them via KHI !!! Indians dont need a transit visa for PAK and till today I havent heard or read of any Indian complaining about PIA and I have 4 BOM Parsi family members who fly PIA BOM-KHI-BOM J and Y class twice a year and they always say its good and no hassle is given what so ever to Indians.

I was referring to flying PIA from the US to India (specifically the Houston comment about PIA exploiting houston before AI entered). I still say very few Indians currently fly and would fly PIA from the US to India. Those that will, will be like your gulf example...those that wanted the cheapest of cheap seats (or those also visiting relatives in Pakistan, like myself). I feel PIA should focus more on building frequencies in JFK and go after higher yielding traffic. PIA served IAH even before AI or all the liberalization in India and the India-US traffic couldn't even help PIA's twice weekly service.

I have flown PIA many times and never mentioned in my post that Indians complain about flying PIA. The last I flew BOM-KHI the IA and PIA flights were interchangable and everyone I knew just flew the airline that flew the day they wanted (your ticket worked on both).


User currently offlineJacobin777 From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 14968 posts, RR: 60
Reply 22, posted (9 years 3 weeks 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 3503 times:

Quoting Lear777 (Reply 16):
Forgot to mention- as far as advertising goes, yes it does suck. Houston is not even on their online route map. That being said, I have seen a few ads in the Chronicle and This Week section.

It would be nice for some big billboards to spring up and a TV spot to go on, but a number of IAH airlines can't claim either of those as well.

Brian

man, I have COMPLAINED and COMPLAINED and COMPLAINED...(did I say I've complained) to PK a million times over to increase their advertising....they said they will, just give it some time...

their fares and service are very good, and if they just to a better job of advertising, they can definitely get a good market.....but thats just typical Pakistani...(wait, I'm one too... biggrin  )

maybe if a few more people write to them, they will take notice.. yes 



"Up the Irons!"
User currently offlineMrniji From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 23, posted (9 years 3 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 3473 times:

By the way, could EWR be launched by PIA, too?

Quoting Behramjee (Reply 19):
Indians dont need a transit visa for PAK and till today

At least the Govt of Pakistan is lineant here, as opposed to our dumb regulations, that still demans Transit Visas for Pakistanis! Oh, it doesn't matter, as AI does not know what 6th freedom is (and could not really benefit here as pax would need to transfer to IC, as AI does not serve Pakistan)..  Sad


User currently offlineIkramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 21474 posts, RR: 60
Reply 24, posted (9 years 3 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 3452 times:

Will someone explain why they need the 772LR? I keep getting told what routes they will use them on, but not why they need them! The 772ER can do all the routes mentioned. The 772LR lists for $30 million more than the 772ER. Why spend so much more for a 772LR?


Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
25 Mrniji : Can they go nonstop to LAX? And NYC/ORD (and IAH) w/o payload restrictions? Maybe someone can clarify. Otherwise, other routes for the far future com
26 Behramjee : The B 772ER would come under payload restrictions due to the warm climate in LHE and KHI whilst taking off plus to fly nonstop with B 772ER from PAK
27 Mrniji : Behram, what about Pk and EWR? AI seems to do very good on that route, so would PK?
28 Lear777 : That wasn't directed at you so much as the question of whether or not the flight was even on schedules past September. I don't doubt one word of what
29 Ikramerica : LAX, yes. It's why I postulated the main reason for getting this planes was to be able to serve LAX, and why they have all of 2 of them. Others? All 6
30 Laxintl : The Pakistani population in California according to US Census numbers less then 30,000 compared to over 200,000 Indians. To make a LAX route successfu
31 Mrniji : Does this include People of Pakistani Origin (i.e. Pakistanis with US Passport)? If not, the number is irrelevant
32 Laxintl : It depends how people identify themselves. If they call themselves Pakistani, Greek, German, Russian etc..
33 MOE777 : Some years back PIA operated a service to Beirut(A310) , but was then either suspended/cancelled, does anyone know why?
34 Drerx7 : The way the flights are timed--they cannot connect to India in KHI as I understand it. So they couldn't have picked up those passengers anyway.
35 The777Man : Nice to know that PK has abandoned the proposed KHI-LHE-PEK-NRT-LAX route and that LAX will be served more directly. It would be interesting to see th
36 PIA747 : There are no plans to start LAX for a while. At the moment PIA is more interested in focusing on what it already has. Which i believe is the right app
37 Shawnnyc : The Pakistani population in teh NY metro area is highly concentrated in New York City. The Indian population is much larger and has a substantial pop
38 Behramjee : Actually the initial proposal was KHI-ISB-PEK-NRT-LAX with the B 747-200 Combi or B 747-300. Luckily someone in PIA had the brains to realize that su
39 Georgiabill : Just two questions. Will PIA order more 777's and is 787's part of PIA plan for growth in the region?
40 PIA747 : I dont know what dream world Lahore office is in. The last time i spoke to Director Marketing Kamran, he mentioned that there was strong pressure to
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