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Aer Lingus Longhaul Fleet Expansion  
User currently offlineEI101 From Ireland, joined Jul 2005, 13 posts, RR: 0
Posted (9 years 5 months 2 weeks 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 8169 times:

Dear All,
There has been a lot of recent reporting in the Irish media re expansion of the Aer Lingus longhaul fleet, with a 'number of new routes being considered'. Crewing issues appear to have been resolved and a deadline for renewal of the lease on some of the 330 fleet occurs next Friday. (source:The Irish Times).

Does anyone know what these routes may be, or else what routes would you guys like to see starting at EI?
Me, I'd love to see DUB-DXB, maybe in conjunction with EK, and DUB-YYZ/YVR.
Cheers.

36 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 33289 posts, RR: 71
Reply 1, posted (9 years 5 months 2 weeks 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 8139 times:

Quoting EI101 (Thread starter):
Does anyone know what these routes may be, or else what routes would you guys like to see starting at EI?

They've been wanting to launch Miami and San Francisco for years, though they've had problems getting the US DOT to approve it.



a.
User currently offlineAirbusfanYYZ From Canada, joined Oct 2002, 1436 posts, RR: 25
Reply 2, posted (9 years 5 months 2 weeks 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 8032 times:

Nice to see EI looking to expand.
Although very unlikely, I would love to see EI in YYZ.

Cheers,
Kaz



t.dot photography
User currently offlineDutchjet From Netherlands, joined Oct 2000, 7864 posts, RR: 56
Reply 3, posted (9 years 5 months 2 weeks 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 7993 times:

Its my understanding that as far as long haul is concerned, Aer Lingus is only interested in more transatlantic routes to the US - as mentoned above, Miami and San Francisco are two cities that AerLingus wants to add - and some type of service to Orlando. They have had trouble getting governmental authority, and, of course, there is the SNN stopover issue that many airlines (especially US carriers) would like to see go away.

User currently offlineJoost From Netherlands, joined Apr 2005, 3186 posts, RR: 4
Reply 4, posted (9 years 5 months 2 weeks 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 7971 times:

When Ireland would give up the SNN stopover, there would be no problem of negotiating some kind of open skies agreement with the US. With SNN being a Ryanair base, I can see an issue of unemployment when giving up SNN as partly solved.

It is due to its geographical position normal that EI is mostly looking at US routes. The can get feed for Europe - North American traffic, not for Europe - middle and far east.


User currently offlineJetBlueAtJFK From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 1687 posts, RR: 3
Reply 5, posted (9 years 5 months 2 weeks 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 7925 times:

Also if they secure some more A330's in their fleet I am sure you will see some more Canada cities and maybe some Central America or Caribbean. But I saw an article in an Irish Newspaper that an A330 broke down and they had to rent a plane for JFK and BOS flights and that their would be lots of problems since they overbook most flights and always have left over PAX. But also in that article it said that Aer Lingus would like to re start seasonal service to BWI but can't until they get more aircrafts so I am sure BWI is #3 on that list behind Miami and San Fran.

 airplane jetBlueAtJFK airplane 



When You Know jetBlue, You Know Better
User currently offlineSTARalliance24 From Canada, joined Jun 2005, 378 posts, RR: 2
Reply 6, posted (9 years 5 months 2 weeks 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 7877 times:

Quoting AirbusfanYYZ (Reply 2):
Although very unlikely, I would love to see EI in YYZ.

What about YUL!!!!!!!!!!!!!


User currently offlineDutchjet From Netherlands, joined Oct 2000, 7864 posts, RR: 56
Reply 7, posted (9 years 5 months 2 weeks 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 7807 times:

Quoting JetBlueAtJFK (Reply 5):
Also if they secure some more A330's in their fleet I am sure you will see some more Canada cities and maybe some Central America or Caribbean.

AerLingus has no interest in flying to Latin America or the Caribbean - there is simply no market for these flights. If they can get the MIA route started, whatever demand that there is can route via MIA onto AA, a OneWorld partner. Service to holiday destinations like Cancun and the Dominican Republic are handled by charter carriers as part of package holiday deals.

AerLingus also seems to have little interest in opening routes to Canada, not sure why, but I suspect the yeilds on routes to Canada would be poor and/or the demand would be highly seasonal. I think that any longhaul expansion will be all about additional service to the US - and for those routes, the A330 is a very good airliner: a mix of A332s and A333s could handle the missions very well......will AerLingus dump their early build older A333s for new models is the question. Another possibility is to lease a small number of additional A330s for the short to medium term and then update the fleet with the 787 or A350 families. I dont see AerLingus switiching over to Boeing at this point in time....the 777 is too big for many of the routes (its simply too much airplane) and 767 family is a long-shot at this point in time.


User currently offlineSTARalliance24 From Canada, joined Jun 2005, 378 posts, RR: 2
Reply 8, posted (9 years 5 months 2 weeks 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 7750 times:

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 7):
AerLingus also seems to have little interest in opening routes to Canada, not sure why, but I suspect the yeilds on routes to Canada would be poor and/or the demand would be highly seasonal

Why not, I see lots of Irish in Montreal. We got the second biggest St.Patrick parrade in North America.!!!


User currently offlineHighFlyer9790 From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 1241 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (9 years 5 months 2 weeks 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 7605 times:

If your talking about Aer Lingus expanding their widebody fleet-I'd keep a heads up for a twin-either an A330 or a 777.


121
User currently offlinePADSpot From Germany, joined Jan 2005, 1676 posts, RR: 4
Reply 10, posted (9 years 5 months 2 weeks 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 7586 times:

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 1):
They've been wanting to launch Miami and San Francisco for years, though they've had problems getting the US DOT to approve it.

Excuse my ignorance, but I would be pleased if someone could explain to me why exactly the US would want to deny their approvement for flights to MIA And SFO? And why do they want Air Lingus to cease their stop-over at Shannon ? Especially the latter issue sound pretty strange to me ...


User currently offlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 17825 posts, RR: 46
Reply 11, posted (9 years 5 months 2 weeks 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 7572 times:

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 3):
Miami and San Francisco are two cities that AerLingus wants to add - and some type of service to Orlando.

Didn't they reason that due to crew action regarding long haul crew requirements they couldn't operate MCO and further American destinations?



E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently offlineDstc47 From Ireland, joined Sep 1999, 1490 posts, RR: 3
Reply 12, posted (9 years 5 months 2 weeks 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 7521 times:

"Excuse my ignorance, but I would be pleased if someone could explain to me why exactly the US would want to deny their approvement for flights to MIA And SFO?"......


Simply put the issue of the Irish and EU bilateral air agreements is a longstanding problem area and going to be hard to resolve. The Irish side has, in the past been very restrictive, not least in access to Dublin. For many years no US carriers could serve Dublin Airport at all. More recently the "Shannon stopover rule" impedes all carriers, - Delta in particular has been very critical of the cost implications.

In any such agreement both parties will want to have their concerns addressed - the US side is thus unlikely to be particularly generous, without changes on the Irish side, particularly the ending or phasing out of the Shannon stopover. The issue is further complicated by the judgement of the European Court, which gives the EU rights in relation to any US / Ireland successsor agreement.


User currently offlineGigneil From United States of America, joined Nov 2002, 16347 posts, RR: 85
Reply 13, posted (9 years 5 months 2 weeks 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 7475 times:

Quoting PADSpot (Reply 10):
And why do they want Air Lingus to cease their stop-over at Shannon ?

Because nobody wants to fly to Shannon, and the Irish government forces them to. It costs airlines time and money.

N


User currently offlineShamrock350 From Ireland, joined Mar 2005, 6373 posts, RR: 14
Reply 14, posted (9 years 5 months 2 weeks 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 7466 times:

Would really like to see Aer Lingus expand on transatlantic and we are more likely to see the A333 and A350. Aer Lingus should really get into MIA and SFO. Glad to see the argument over crew requirements resolved and they now dont have to pull out of MCO.

User currently offlinePADSpot From Germany, joined Jan 2005, 1676 posts, RR: 4
Reply 15, posted (9 years 5 months 2 weeks 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 7438 times:

Quoting Dstc47 (Reply 12):
Simply put the issue of the Irish and EU bilateral air agreements is a longstanding problem area and going to be hard to resolve. The Irish side has, in the past been very restrictive, not least in access to Dublin. For many years no US carriers could serve Dublin Airport at all. More recently the "Shannon stopover rule" impedes all carriers, - Delta in particular has been very critical of the cost implications.

In any such agreement both parties will want to have their concerns addressed - the US side is thus unlikely to be particularly generous, without changes on the Irish side, particularly the ending or phasing out of the Shannon stopover. The issue is further complicated by the judgement of the European Court, which gives the EU rights in relation to any US / Ireland successsor agreement.

Ok, thank you for the kind information. That explains a lot.

Seems to be a micture of structural subidy and protectionism. Why don't they accept direct flights to DUB by foreign carriers. Then Air Lingus and the other local airlines could fly the people that wish to back to SNN. Doing it this way both parties could get a piece of the cake ... Ireland has been the top performer among all EU economies during the last years. I cannot believe that Air Lingus really needs this kind of protectionism ... About 10 years ago I've been to SNN because of a boat tour. We met loads of tourists there that came by air, so I don't think SNN needs this kind of subsidy either ...


User currently offlineSTARalliance24 From Canada, joined Jun 2005, 378 posts, RR: 2
Reply 16, posted (9 years 5 months 2 weeks 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 7421 times:

Quoting Gigneil (Reply 13):
Because nobody wants to fly to Shannon

Air Canada flies YYZ-DUB-SNN-YYZ. But its only in the summer.


User currently offlineDstc47 From Ireland, joined Sep 1999, 1490 posts, RR: 3
Reply 17, posted (9 years 5 months 2 weeks 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 7397 times:

The protectionism is not for the benefit of Aer Lingus, or any airline.

The protectionism is for the airport - Shannon and is in response to strong local interests who oppose any change.

Aer Lingus also oppose the "Shannon stopover" and wish to see it end. After all the stopover costs them money too, - I recall having seen four passengers get off at Shannon from Baltimore / Washington, when the aircraft stopped there at an ungodly hour in the morning, so that all the remaining passengers bound for Dublin were delayed for an hour and a half to make Shannon locals happy.


User currently offlineDutchjet From Netherlands, joined Oct 2000, 7864 posts, RR: 56
Reply 18, posted (9 years 5 months 2 weeks 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 7369 times:

The Irish are concerned that if airlines are not required to stop in SNN, all of the US carriers will drop service to that city and AerLingus will likely do the same, the Irish want SNN utilized (and utilized for longhaul) and there are political concerns since the Shannon area is not very strong economically, and the if the US carriers pullout and AerLingus also drops the SNN stopover, many will lose their jobs making the economic situation even worse. Presently, a 50/50 rule is in effect......50% of flight from the US to Ireland must go to SNN and the other 50% can go to Dublin, while the demand, in real life, is probably something like 20% to SNN (if that) and 80% to Dublin. This is why many US airlines plus AerLingus operate a XXX-DUB-SNN-XXX routings (50/50) and then split up flights during the Summer when demand increases.....for example, CO has a seperate EWR-SNN and EWR-DUB service, the SNN flight operates with a 757 and the DUB operates with a 764 (that is generally fully booked).

Politics and regualtions such as these usually dont work, and there would probably be more flights to Ireland (read....Dublin) if the SNN stopover regulation was not if effect, the stopover costs time and money, and forces an airline to offer service to a city that cannot support it, which is especially problematic during a time period where many airlines, especially the US legacy carriers, cannot figure out a way to become profitable. The regulation also hurts AerLingus, they are also stuck with SNN, and it limits their ability to compete for connecting traffic going beyond Ireland.....most pax do not want to fly XXX-SNN-DUB and then connect to a flight from Dublin to another European capital.

Hopefully, the regulations will be changed, but both sides have been rather stubborn thus far (no different that the Bermuda 2 treaty) and all kinds of non-essential issues get mixed into the negotiations. Ireland wants greater access to the US, the US carriers dont want to go to SNN, it seems so simple but it is not.


User currently offlineSTARalliance24 From Canada, joined Jun 2005, 378 posts, RR: 2
Reply 19, posted (9 years 5 months 2 weeks 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 7360 times:

Ok Ok OK you don't need to wright a whole love story! LOL Big grin

User currently offlineDutchjet From Netherlands, joined Oct 2000, 7864 posts, RR: 56
Reply 20, posted (9 years 5 months 2 weeks 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 7305 times:

Quoting STARalliance24 (Reply 19):
Ok Ok OK you don't need to wright a whole love story! LOL

I wish that the story had a happy ending, end SNN, and that would increase service to Ireland!!!!!


User currently offlineSllevin From United States of America, joined Jan 2002, 3376 posts, RR: 6
Reply 21, posted (9 years 5 months 2 weeks 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 7261 times:

Quoting Dstc47 (Reply 17):
The protectionism is for the airport - Shannon and is in response to strong local interests who oppose any change.

More accurately it's protections for Western Ireland, whichdoes a lot of tourist business. Concerns are (rightly so) that without service to Shannon, a lot of those folks would find their way to Glasgow or Edinburgh in the summer, as to avoid the 3+ hour drive west from Dublin (keeping in mind that the roads from Dublin west are all two lane roads).

Steve


User currently offlineEI101 From Ireland, joined Jul 2005, 13 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (9 years 5 months 2 weeks 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 7166 times:

I suppose part of the problem here is that with the SNN stopover, EI has limited expansion room, in more ways than one. With the recent improvement of the short-haul network, EI could viably hope to attract stateside passengers travelling to Europe to transit in Dublin. This really wasnt an option in the bad ol' days of the Shannon stopover in the 1980s. At the moment, largely coz of SNN, transatlantic EI service is aimed only at US visitors to Ireland or Irish visitors to the US, and def. not to the transit passenger.

BTW, would the 332 have sufficient range in order to fly DUB-JNB? The newspapers in Ireland seem convinced that south africa was on the EI list, but had to be pulled because of the recent industrial relations problems.


User currently offlineEIN145 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 23, posted (9 years 5 months 2 weeks 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 7132 times:

Quoting EI101 (Reply 22):
BTW, would the 332 have sufficient range in order to fly DUB-JNB? The newspapers in Ireland seem convinced that south africa was on the EI list, but had to be pulled because of the recent industrial relations problems.

I think the A330-200 must have sufficient range for JNB as I saw a charter for JNB in DUB one day and it was being operated on an A332 by LTU airlines. To my knowledge there was no enroute stop.

I think the A333 and A332 together gives quite a versatile long-haul fleet, I imagine Aer Lingus will stick with Airbus for long-haul expansion as they have considerable experience with the manufacturer. Perhaps if they do not choose the A330 they may go for the A350.


User currently offlineKL808 From United States of America, joined May 1999, 1585 posts, RR: 2
Reply 24, posted (9 years 5 months 2 weeks 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 7131 times:

Quoting EI101 (Reply 22):
would the 332 have sufficient range in order to fly DUB-JNB?

At 5855 miles I would think the A332 can make the journey. SAA used to operate A332 leased from TAM to LHR, ZRH, and MXP.


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25 Post contains images STARalliance24 : That's a heck of a ride!
26 Post contains images HKGKaiTak : I wonder what pax use SNN - I highly doubt much leisure holiday traffic would get off at SNN, they would probably want to go to DUB and eastern Irelan
27 Wunala : Don't be going putting ideas in their heads. The cost of fares would increase to cover airport landing charges, not to mention the extra hours that w
28 ChiGB1973 : The SNN flights are full too. M
29 EIN145 : I have known several families of American tourists who will arrive in DUB and depart form SNN or do that in reverse. This way as they drive around th
30 Vatry : Shannon attracts transatlantic pax during the tourist season (May-Sep). Most carriers are happy enough to serve Shannon during the summer as the loads
31 HKGKaiTak : Doesn't this cost EI money as well? Couldn't they argue that even their services are better off flying directly to DUB for another EI flight to take
32 Vatry : It costs EI a huge amount of money and they been screaming for the rule to be scrapped for at least 20 years. There may have been an argument that it
33 LGW : Hi all, Basically it is a nightmare situation because all sides have valid points. The airlines say, quite rightly it is not competitive and in some r
34 EIRules : Those LTU flights from DUB-JNB do make a stop over, in Lanzarote I believe. But thats not to say that a 332 cant make it non stop
35 DAYflyer : If they don't go with a 777 I would put my money on an eventual A-350 order.
36 Post contains links Kaitak : Very interesting thread! Let me make a few comments, as someone who has been involved directly in these issues and (along with one of our moderators,
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