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AI New Service BOM-BKK Non-stop  
User currently offlineAI744LR From Thailand, joined May 2001, 106 posts, RR: 0
Posted (9 years 3 months 2 weeks 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 3938 times:

Like I've mentioned before, I've been a life long fan of AI, but unfortunately, after supporting the airline for years, hoping for the management to improve, I gave up. Just couldn't take the poor business decisions being dished out on a regular basis as if it was nobody's business BUT the government's.

Here's my point. Recently, AI has started a non-stop service from BOM-BKK. I believe it's a 5 time a week service. CX has been offering this service for 20+ years. My question is, did it never occur to the management to ever "consider" competing with CX in order to put even a "slight" dent into CX's market share? Instead, they kept continuing with their routine flight back and forth VIA Calcutta and New Delhi. What the heck were they thinking???

NOW, after the non-stop market between the 2 points has almost been saturated with seats, AI management has finally seen the light at the end of the tunnel. Man, I guess the managemnet is really light years behind aren't they?

I hope the private airline boom in India teaches AI and IC a good lesson.

Go KingFisher, Jet, and others...

Cheers.

24 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineJaysit From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (9 years 3 months 2 weeks 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 3914 times:

Quoting AI744LR (Thread starter):
My question is, did it never occur to the management to ever "consider" competing with CX in order to put even a "slight" dent into CX's market share?

No.

And with their rickety A310s its unlikely if they'll put a dent into either CX's or TG's services operated with 773s and A333s respectively.


User currently offlineBlrsea From India, joined May 2005, 1425 posts, RR: 3
Reply 2, posted (9 years 3 months 2 weeks 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 3914 times:

Does AI have any agreements with other airlines to take passengers beyond BKK/ICN/HKG to US? An agreement with UA/TG/SQ would be good for passengers flying onwards to US west coast.

User currently offlineMrniji From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 3, posted (9 years 3 months 2 weeks 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 3905 times:

Quoting Blrsea (Reply 2):
Does AI have any agreements with other airlines to take passengers beyond BKK/ICN/HKG to US?

MH, SQ, and I think TG and KQ - not sure about the latter two.. check the ai webpage --> About --> Codesharing (better go to the sitemap, as their webpage is unlogical to navigate and in big parts outdated)


User currently offlineNimish From India, joined Feb 2005, 3262 posts, RR: 9
Reply 4, posted (9 years 3 months 2 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 3827 times:

Quoting Mrniji (Reply 3):
MH, SQ, and I think TG and KQ

I think the code sharing is very restricted - only to 1-2 flights (out of the many flights) operated by these carriers to the US. But it can lead to interesting results - a colleague once flew SQ all the way from BLR-SFO and back, but on a AI ticket, and the fare was much lower than what SQ were charging themselves. Plus confirmations were much easier to come by!



Latest Trip Report - GoAir BLR-BOM-BLR
User currently offlineJasepl From India, joined Jul 2004, 3582 posts, RR: 39
Reply 5, posted (9 years 3 months 2 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 3830 times:

Quoting AI744LR (Thread starter):
Here's my point. Recently, AI has started a non-stop service from BOM-BKK. I believe it's a 5 time a week service. CX has been offering this service for 20+ years. My question is, did it never occur to the management to ever "consider" competing with CX in order to put even a "slight" dent into CX's market share? Instead, they kept continuing with their routine flight back and forth VIA Calcutta and New Delhi. What the heck were they thinking???

I've always said I want some of whatever AI's schedulers have been on!

Besides, It's not just CX who have non-stop flights from Bombay to Bangkok. Thai and even effing Indian Airlines do as well!

And, in the past, Korean Air did too, before going non-stop. Maybe El Al, Ethiopian and British Airways did as well, but I'm not sure.

Now that KE fly 330s BOM-ICN non-stop, AI have come up with BOM-DEL-HKG-ICN in retaliation, on the lovely 310s, no less.

Quoting Jaysit (Reply 1):
And with their rickety A310s its unlikely if they'll put a dent into either CX's or TG's services operated with 773s and A333s respectively.

Nor IC's 320s.


User currently offlineETStar From Canada, joined Jan 2004, 2103 posts, RR: 7
Reply 6, posted (9 years 3 months 2 weeks 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 3740 times:

Quoting Jasepl (Reply 5):

And, in the past, Korean Air did too, before going non-stop. Maybe El Al, Ethiopian and British Airways did as well, but I'm not sure.

While Ethiopian flew Bombay-Bangkok, it did not have traffic rights.


User currently offlineMrniji From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (9 years 3 months 2 weeks 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 3729 times:

Quoting ETStar (Reply 6):
While Ethiopian flew Bombay-Bangkok, it did not have traffic rights.

Do they have for DEL-PEK? If yes, how are they doing on that sector?


User currently offlineShawnnyc From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 241 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (9 years 3 months 2 weeks 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 3636 times:

Quoting Jasepl (Reply 5):
even effing Indian Airlines do as well!

And to top it off AI and IC have flights BOM-BKK that leave ten minutes apart (4:25am and 4:15am respectively). Why would they plan it this way????? AI, I guess, is trying to connect BKK to its European flight arrivals. But IC, could they pick a worst departure time? This is another example showing that AI and IC need to be merged they compete in the most wasteful ways.


User currently offlineMrniji From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 9, posted (9 years 3 months 2 weeks 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 3573 times:

Quoting Shawnnyc (Reply 8):
And to top it off AI and IC have flights BOM-BKK that leave ten minutes apart (4:25am and 4:15am respectively).

Agreed more than 100 5 with your post (though I prefer Sean's idea of mergibng AI and 9WBig grin ). btw, same with DXB-DEL...


User currently offlineETStar From Canada, joined Jan 2004, 2103 posts, RR: 7
Reply 10, posted (9 years 3 months 2 weeks 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 3503 times:

Quoting Mrniji (Reply 7):
Do they have for DEL-PEK? If yes, how are they doing on that sector?

ET has 5th freedom on DEL-PEK, and flew 2x per week for a few years. This month, that frequency was upped to 3x per week, with flights of course originating at Addis Ababa. As for how well the airline is doing on that sector, no idea, but traffic between ADD and China in general is growing.


User currently offlineAI744LR From Thailand, joined May 2001, 106 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (9 years 3 months 2 weeks 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 3385 times:

Quoting Jasepl (Reply 5):
Besides, It's not just CX who have non-stop flights from Bombay to Bangkok. Thai and even effing Indian Airlines do as well!

And, in the past, Korean Air did too, before going non-stop. Maybe El Al, Ethiopian and British Airways did as well, but I'm not sure.

Add SR, AF, and believe this or not, Iraqi Airways to the list. Yup!! I have done BKK-BOM non-stop on all these three airlines myself. Iraqi Airways had 747-200s on this sector. They had good service too.

Cheers!


User currently offlineBlrsea From India, joined May 2005, 1425 posts, RR: 3
Reply 12, posted (9 years 3 months 2 weeks 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 3359 times:

Quoting Nimish (Reply 4):
a colleague once flew SQ all the way from BLR-SFO and back, but on a AI ticket, and the fare was much lower than what SQ were charging themselves

I too have flown twice on BLR-SFO sector on AI ticket, which is AI's code share with SQ. And the AI price is atleast $100 cheaper than purchasing SQ ticket directly. However, the code share is on limited flights. SQ has two daily SFO-LAX flights . However, the AI code share is only with one flight. And this one flight arrives at LAX around 7:00pm, and it is difficult to catch flights to other destinations from LAX as it will be around 8-8:30 by the time you clear customs and immigration.

Same with Asiana. It just has code share couple of flights to US, not all. Not sure about TG though.


User currently offlineB747-437B From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 13, posted (9 years 3 months 2 weeks 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 3298 times:

Quoting Shawnnyc (Reply 8):
AI and IC have flights BOM-BKK that leave ten minutes apart (4:25am and 4:15am respectively). Why would they plan it this way?????

Because the current Bangkok airport does not have capacity to accomodate new flight arrivals at any other hour of day to create a feasible schedule.


User currently offlineShawnnyc From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 241 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (9 years 3 months 2 weeks 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 3285 times:

Quoting B747-437B (Reply 13):
Because the current Bangkok airport does not have capacity to accomodate new flight arrivals at any other hour of day to create a feasible schedule.

I stand corrected, that makes perfect sense. Btw when I priced the flight on travelocity IC was more expensive than AI which sort of surprised me.


User currently offlineRyanair!!! From Australia, joined Mar 2002, 4756 posts, RR: 25
Reply 15, posted (9 years 3 months 2 weeks 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 3239 times:

One thing I do not understand, days of "milk run" routes are already in their twilights years. Why is AI still doing these? Is it due to a lack of aircraft and the overwhelming need to cover these routes? I mean, honestly, BOM-DEL-HKG-ICN is a long way to travel is you need to get from BOM to ICN. No?

These days, a nonstop or at most a one-stop direct service seems to be the way to go.



Welcome to my starry one world alliance, a team in the sky!
User currently offlineJasepl From India, joined Jul 2004, 3582 posts, RR: 39
Reply 16, posted (9 years 3 months 2 weeks 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 3211 times:

Quoting Ryanair!!! (Reply 15):
Why is AI still doing these?

Now you've gone and done it!

Prepare to be lectured!  wave 


User currently offlineCHI787ORD From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 548 posts, RR: 4
Reply 17, posted (9 years 3 months 2 weeks 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 3196 times:

Quoting Jasepl (Reply 16):
Why is AI still doing these?

Lack of aircraft mostly. Hopefully, the boeing order will become official soon.


User currently offlineRyanair!!! From Australia, joined Mar 2002, 4756 posts, RR: 25
Reply 18, posted (9 years 3 months 2 weeks 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 3176 times:

Prepare to be lectured!

Hahahaha... I mean, I have worked with a government service before and I know what red tape beauracracy does to efficiency. Singapore is one fine example. While I have had my days of frustration in trying to get things moving, the never ending "paper work" of justification and old school civil servants seems to be the ever-present stumbling blocks.

It all looks glossy on the outside with ISO certification for all kinds of facets possible but at the end of the day, it is still the human touch that oils the entire operations. Things ARE surely changing, slowly but surely... So it is a vast improvement, compared to 10 yrs ago when computer automation was still in its infant stage.

Now back to India, I guess as long as the mentality of having an airline to serve the country only and not make it commercially viable, it will always remain the way it is - a company that is going nowhere, with messy and at times crazy business decisions and outdated trends permeating the culture.

Now, time for the lecture!

Cheers
Ryan



Welcome to my starry one world alliance, a team in the sky!
User currently offlineShawnnyc From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 241 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (9 years 3 months 2 weeks 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 3176 times:

Quoting Ryanair!!! (Reply 18):
Now back to India, I guess as long as the mentality of having an airline to serve the country only and not make it commercially viable, it will always remain the way it is - a company that is going nowhere, with messy and at times crazy business decisions and outdated trends permeating the culture.

Actually the stops makes the flight commercially viable given the circumstances of AI/India. First off, BOM is on the flight basically for the HKG stop. All flights by CX and AI BOM-HKG make a stop (think its in the air agreement). I guess AI wants the stop to make the CX flight less attractive BOM-BKK-HKG-LAX/SFO. Because AI basically connects very few international pax, as they have no true hub schedule or real airport, AI relies on an intermediate stop to fill the plane. AI could not serve Korea nonstop from India as there is not enough O&D traffic between India and Korea. KE flies nonstop as they are connecting pax to the US. KE actually prices the nonstop India/Korea quite high as, my guess, they prefer the higher rev pax to the US then India/ Korea O&D. So for a savings of $200, there are definitely Indians that will fly AI BOM-DEL-HKG-ICN. Oh and ICN-HKG is not cheap given the short flight (~$950 for a three hour flight on my travelocity search), so AI should be able to make money as the cheap player.


User currently offlineTKMCE From India, joined May 2002, 841 posts, RR: 2
Reply 20, posted (9 years 3 months 2 weeks 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 3143 times:

Quoting B747-437B (Reply 13):
Quoting Shawnnyc (Reply 8):
AI and IC have flights BOM-BKK that leave ten minutes apart (4:25am and 4:15am respectively). Why would they plan it this way?????

Because the current Bangkok airport does not have capacity to accomodate new flight arrivals at any other hour of day to create a feasible schedule.

Also in the case of IC, it makes scheduling sense, since the BOM-BKK flight then does a BKK-MAA and back (3 days), BKK-BLR (2 days) and BKK-HYD (2 days) with an afternoon arrival/dep before the flight goes back to BOM in the evening.

A relief for HYD pax from the South India darshan by Indian Airlines earlier with the twice weekly HYD-BLR-MAA-BKK routing. But the flight was well patronised ex HYD and BLR because of the dirt cheap positioning fares to MAA and a convenient 8.30 PM dep to boot.


User currently offlineMrniji From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 21, posted (9 years 3 months 2 weeks 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 3141 times:

It's everything about price on the Indian market.. travel AI or some other airline, yo9u will find families 10 +, who are happy about US$ 10 saved per ticket. or you will find expat labor and whatsoever.. so even these "milk runs" can do quite well - some milk runs use 5th freedom and fill up the plane and hence serve 3 instead of 1 market.. as long as AI (and IC, or better 9W) don't have an effective h&s, the milk runs make commercial sense

User currently offlineB747-437B From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 22, posted (9 years 3 months 2 weeks 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 3097 times:

Quoting Ryanair!!! (Reply 15):
Why is AI still doing these?

In the case of the BOM-BKK-HKG flights it is a purely defensive move to "lock up" the bilateral rights to fly these routes and keep 9W/S2 out of the market. By combining both BKK and HKG on a single routing, it allows them to defend 2 markets with one aircraft.


User currently offlineB747-437B From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 23, posted (9 years 3 months 2 weeks 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 3090 times:

Quoting Shawnnyc (Reply 19):
think its in the air agreement

Not at all. Air India has operated nonstops between BOM-HKG as recently as 2001, but dropped them right after 9/11.

Air India Launches Significantly Expanded Schedule (by B747-437B Jul 29 2001 in Civil Aviation)


User currently offlineB747-437B From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 24, posted (9 years 3 months 2 weeks 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 3103 times:

Quoting TKMCE (Reply 20):
in the case of IC, it makes scheduling sense, since the BOM-BKK flight then does a BKK-MAA and back (3 days), BKK-BLR (2 days) and BKK-HYD (2 days) with an afternoon arrival/dep before the flight goes back to BOM in the evening

Thats why I said "feasible schedule".  Wink

Theoretically you could operate the flights at a different time but you would not be able to get as much utility out of the aircraft as you want within the airport constraints. Similar reason why IC wanted to extend their DEL-BKK service onward to KUL.

I had a long chat with the head of IC scheduling last month at a conference and he comes across as an extremely competent and innovative guy (in contrast to his colleagues at certain other public-sector airlines who shall remain nameless).


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