Squirrel83 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Posted (7 years 11 months 2 weeks 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 8548 times:
US authorities have ordered an Air France flight from Paris to Chicago to turn around after only two hours in the air after concerns about a passenger.
"After the plane had left the Americans reacted and said that one of the passengers had a name that was on their list," French police said.
Flight AF050 landed at Charles de Gaulle airport at 1915 (1715 GMT) on Friday, four hours after taking off.
The passenger in question and four others were taken for checks.
There was no information given on the names of the passengers, their age or nationalities.
Air France said the flight would take off again in the evening, after the plane had been checked over.
French police said flights from France to Britain and the United States were being treated with extra caution following Thursday's bomb attacks in London, AFP reported.
In May flights from Italy and France to Boston were diverted because of fears about passengers on board.
In September last year a flight carrying the singer Cat Stevens to the US was diverted because the name he adopted when he became a Muslim, Yusuf Islam, was on the US no-fly list.
MNeo From Bulgaria, joined Mar 2004, 776 posts, RR: 1 Reply 1, posted (7 years 11 months 2 weeks 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 8475 times:
Now wount it be smart for the US to give out a Compy of the No fly list to Airports around the world, so that those unlucky enough to have the same name as potential terrosrits can be checked out, instead of diverting a whole plane 2 hours after takeoff.
Lfutia From Netherlands, joined Dec 2002, 3196 posts, RR: 30 Reply 2, posted (7 years 11 months 2 weeks 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 8420 times:
here's the flight details:
Flight information
Information last updated at 3:41 AM Paris time
All times shown are local times
AF 050
Flight left from Paris (CDG) at 1:54 PM on July 8, 2005
Returns from Paris (CDG) at 2:18 PM on July 8, 2005
Flight left from Paris (CDG) at 3:03 PM on July 8, 2005
Returns from Paris (CDG) at 7:37 PM on July 8, 2005
Flight left from Paris (CDG) at 11:45 PM on July 8, 2005
Scheduled arrival in Chicago (ORD) at 1:59 AM on July 9, 2005
Departs Arrives
Paris, Charles de Gaulle (CDG) - FRANCE, Terminal 2E
1:15 PM, on July 8, 2005
Chicago, O'Hare Intl (ORD) - USA, Terminal 5
3:25 PM, on July 8, 2005
Comments
As a safety precaution, flight AF050 has returned to CDG
Flight AF050 has been delayed as a safety precaution.
It also had an operational disruption too. but it looks like AF removed that portion.
Here is AF51 back to Paris:
AF 051
Scheduled departure from Chicago (ORD) at 3:30 AM on July 9, 2005
Scheduled arrival in Paris (CDG) at 6:23 PM on July 9, 2005
Departs Arrives
Chicago, O'Hare Intl (ORD) - USA, Terminal 5
5:40 PM, on July 8, 2005
Paris, Charles de Gaulle (CDG) - FRANCE, Terminal 2E
8:50 AM, on July 9, 2005
Comments
Flight AF051 is delayed.
New AF flight number AF051A.
Leo/ORD -- Groetjes uit de VS! -- Heeft u laatst nog met KLM gevlogen?
Alberchico From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 2688 posts, RR: 0 Reply 4, posted (7 years 11 months 2 weeks 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 8327 times:
Now let's wait for some idiot to start basing the U.S. for its security policies.
The last time we discussed this in the KLM flight forum things went crazy......
short summary of every jewish holiday: they tried to kill us ,we won , lets eat !
Avek00 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 4094 posts, RR: 18 Reply 7, posted (7 years 11 months 2 weeks 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 8243 times:
Quoting MNeo (Reply 1): Now wount it be smart for the US to give out a Compy of the No fly list to Airports around the world
No, it wouldn't be smart in the least - remember, some countries actually SUPPORT terrorists and criminal syndicates.
Alberchico From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 2688 posts, RR: 0 Reply 8, posted (7 years 11 months 2 weeks 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 8210 times:
Quoting Avek00 (Reply 7): remember, some countries actually SUPPORT terrorists and criminal syndicates.
Yes and U.S airlines don't fly to those cities.
short summary of every jewish holiday: they tried to kill us ,we won , lets eat !
Venezuela747 From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 1409 posts, RR: 5 Reply 9, posted (7 years 11 months 2 weeks 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 8168 times:
Quoting Alberchico (Reply 8):
Yes and U.S airlines don't fly to those cities.
I would disagree with that
Anyways lets not turn this into that type of discussion about the US and terrorism.
I would like to know tho how much is this costing airlines...anyone who can give me figures?
UA777222 From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 3348 posts, RR: 13 Reply 12, posted (7 years 11 months 2 weeks 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 7829 times:
Quoting SA7700 (Reply 10): I agree to an extent, but why can't they (USA) compare the pax manifest with their "list" before the plane actually takes off - I don't get it?
My only guess could be last min. passengers or those who are either on standby or purchased a ticket at the airport the day of. Now it is the airlines' job (those in the EU) to take care of checking their list and send off the manifest to the country of the destionation. Now when the US runs it and finds a name they want they turn the a/c around. It's the airlines' fault for allowing the passenger on the aircraft but I guess it's hard to run a name if they get on the aircraft only 5min before departure.
Quoting Avek00 (Reply 7): No, it wouldn't be smart in the least - remember, some countries actually SUPPORT terrorists and criminal syndicates.
What kind of reasoning is that? I know of no major airline that flies into the United States that would put their certificate with the FAA at such a risk. And even if you are right there are far more countries that despise such actions and would have no problem rejecting any flight plans of the airline. VS, BA, UA, AF, etc. are all airlines that have major hubs around the world and would probably have no issues rejecting a passenger at the gate if they knew that person(s) was on a no-fly list. I'm sorry but you make no sense at all.
Wunala From Australia, joined Mar 2005, 940 posts, RR: 0 Reply 13, posted (7 years 11 months 2 weeks 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 7802 times:
Why can't the lists be checked prior to take off? It wouldn't be that hard to pre-screen the crafts list, say 24 hours before the flight, with additional screening of pax changes within the last 24 hours. Any walk up pax on the day, would be subject to further checks if applicable.
Who pays for that waste of 4 hours? The airline, the US? Does AF need to pay the extra landing and take off fees at CDG?
I think that the US needs to adopt a better model that the one the have. I agree it is about safety, but, I think if the plane has taken off, then it should go to its destination and be dealt with there.
Dutchjet From Netherlands, joined Oct 2000, 7864 posts, RR: 58 Reply 14, posted (7 years 11 months 2 weeks 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 7782 times:
Better safe than sorry, thats all I can say, these inconvenices will happen from time to time due to the terrorist threats that exist in our world enviornment. Even if the action was not necessary or in error (it has happened), necessary precautions must be taken.
As for the list - you dont really think its a document or a booklet with a list of names, do you that the governments can give out to airlines and other users - its a computer base that is constantly being updated, revised and changed based on intellegence and other information. The pax manifest should be processed and cleared prior to departure, but occassionally things will go wrong and errors will occur and action will be required after the subject flight has departed. And, before anyone over-reacts, remember how many international flights per day enter the US and how rare a flight is cancelled or turned back due to security questions concerning pax on board that flight.
And, of course, the nations of the EU work in coordination with the US on matters such as these - they all work on the "list" together, for all we know, French intellegence could have gotten some new information about the pax(s) and they themselves suggested that the aircraft come back - none of us know exactly how this works, and thats the idea.
Its going to be difficult couple of weeks following the London attacks - and flights out of Paris, for some reason, have always been a concern.
UA777222 From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 3348 posts, RR: 13 Reply 16, posted (7 years 11 months 2 weeks 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 7710 times:
Quoting Gkirk (Reply 15): I hope the airlines recieve compensation from the US for this stupidity. Just give airlines the list of names dammit.
Show me where it states that the airline worked hand and hand with the United States to check every last name. Until then they had what they had coming.
HAWK21M From India, joined Jan 2001, 31228 posts, RR: 58 Reply 17, posted (7 years 11 months 2 weeks 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 7672 times:
Quoting Wunala (Reply 13): Why can't the lists be checked prior to take off
Exactly the Question.What is the Problem with that.Can the list be checked prior to departure.Fuel Wastage & Pax Inconvenience can be avoided.
regds
MEL
PipoA380 From Switzerland, joined May 2005, 1591 posts, RR: 52 Reply 18, posted (7 years 11 months 2 weeks 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 7648 times:
Quoting UA777222 (Reply 16):
Show me where it states that the airline worked hand and hand with the United States to check every last name.
Actually this is just a policy of the United States, and if they want to have a no-fly list, they have to make sure everything is allright, and they have to check what's coming in and out prior to departures. OK if they don't want this guy or that one, it's their right, but all other passengers have to pay for that, and AF too. I personnaly don't like the US's policy about that, but let's not talk about that here.
AFs job is to fly, so I just hope that the US will pay AF for that landing and lost time.
It's not about AIRBUS. it's not about BOEING. It's all about the beauty of FLYING.
Xpat From United States of America, joined Nov 2004, 634 posts, RR: 0 Reply 19, posted (7 years 11 months 2 weeks 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 7625 times:
I'm not trying to make light of this situation at all. When 'planes have to turn back due to some person on the no fly list, do passengers get extra frequent flyer points for the extra "actual miles" flown? I think it would be a small compensation for the hassle and aggravation caused to passengers who are on aboard.
The only thing we have to fear is the sky falling on our heads. -Asterix
UA777222 From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 3348 posts, RR: 13 Reply 20, posted (7 years 11 months 2 weeks 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 7611 times:
Seeing as it is an EU airline the passengers did't get off too bad. I made this up for another post. Took me a while. It's the EU Passenger's rights; (Mind all spelling errors)
Denied Boarding and Cancellation
If you are denied boarding or your flight is cancelled, the airline operation your flight must offer you a financial compensation and assistance. These rights apply, provided you check in on time, for any flight, including charters:
from an EU airport, or
to an EU airport from one outside the EU, when operated by an EU airline
Denied Boarding
When there are too many passengers for the seats available, an airline must first ask for volunteers to give up their seats in return for agreed benefits. These must include the choice of either refund of your ticket (with a free flight back to your initial point of departure, when relevant) or alternative transport to your final destination.
If you are not a volunteer, the airline must pay you compensation of:
€250 for flights of 1,500km or less
€400 for longer flights within the EU, and for other flights between 1,500km and 3,500km
€600 for flights over 3,000 km outside the EU.
Compensation my be halved if you a e not delayed more than 2, 3, or 4 hours, respectively.
The airline must also give you:
A choice of either a refund of your ticket (with a free flight back to your initial point of departure, when relevant) or alternative transport to your final destination, and
Meals and refreshments, hotel accommodation when necessary (including transfers) and communication facilities
Cancellation
Whenever your flight is cancelled, the operating airline must give you:
A choice of either a refund of your ticket (with a free flight back to your initial point of departure, when relevant) or alternative transport to your final destination, and
Meals and refreshments, hotel accommodation when necessary (including transfers) and communication facilities.
The airline may also have to compensate you, at the same level as for denied boarding, unless it give you sufficient advance notice. You shall be informed about alternative transport.
Refunds may be in cash, by bank transfer or cheque or, with your signed agreement, in travel vouchers, and must be paid within 7 days to avoid further penalties.
If you do not receive these rights, complain immediately to the airline operating the flight.
Long Delays
Immediate Assistance
If you check in on time for any flight, including charters;
from an EU airport, or
to an EU airport from one outside the EU, when operated by an EU airline,
and if the airline operating the flight expects a delay
of 2 hours or more, for flights of 1,500km or less
of 3 hours or more, for longer flights within the EU, and for other flights between 1,500km and 3,500km,
of 4 hours or more for flights over 3,500km outside the EU,
The airline must give you meals and refreshments, hotel accommodations when necessary (including transfers) and communication facilities.
When the delay is 5 hours or more, the airlines must also offer to refund your ticket (with a free flight back toy our initial point of departure, when relevant)
If you do not receive these rights, complain immediately to the airline operating the flight.
Later Claims
When the EU airline is responsible for the delay of a flight anywhere in the world, you may claim up to 4,150 SDR (*) for any resulting damages. If the airline does not agree with your claim, you may go to court.
You can claim form the airline with which you have a contract or form that actually operating the flight, if they are different.
Baggage
You may also claim up to 1,000 SDR (*) for damages caused by the destruction, damage, or loss or delay of your baggage on a flight by an EU airline, anywhere in the world. If the airline does not agree with your claim, you may go to court.
For damage to check-in baggage, you must claim in writing within 7 days of its return and for delayed baggage within 21 days of its return.
You can claim from the airline with which you have a contract or form that actually operating the flight, if they are different
(*) 1 SDR = €1.18 For the current exchange rate, contact Europe Direct
Injury and death in accidents
You may claim for damages caused by injury or death resulting from an accident on a flight by an EU airline, anywhere in the world. You have the right to an advance payment for immediate economic needs, if the airline does not agree with your claim, you may go to court.
You can claim from the airline with which you have a contract or form that actually operating the flight, if they are different.
Package Holidays
In addition to the rights described above, you may claim damaged from your tour operator if it fails to provide the services you have booked within the EU, whatever your destination. These rights apply to failure to provide any flight included in your package. Moreover, if the tour operator does not provide a significant part of the package booked, it is obliged to assist you and make alternative arrangements including travel, without extra cost to you.
Who will pay to offer all that? Who knows. Regardless all those passengers should be well aware of these benifts. Because if so, goddamnit I'd board a flight knowing it was going to turn back.
Squirrel83 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 21, posted (7 years 11 months 2 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 7578 times:
Quoting Venezuela747 (Reply 9): I would like to know tho how much is this costing airlines...anyone who can give me figures?
I have asked this sevral of times and no one seems to know the answers or who pays for it in the long run. . .
Quoting Wunala (Reply 13): Why can't the lists be checked prior to take off?
I totally agree I have no clue why they are unable to pre check all passengers considering most PAX already have paid for the ticket by the time of check-in so gathering information should not be a prob. What if a PAX does not check-in, or is unable to board? Possibly they are unable to run the information till check-in is complete, after all in most foreign countries they ask/enter your passport number at the check-in counter so maybe that is an issue. Another possibility could be the US must wait for the airline to submit the final list of PAX that have boarded and by the time the US has reviewed the list, the aircraft is about an 20 minutes to and hour out . . . .
Avek00 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 4094 posts, RR: 18 Reply 22, posted (7 years 11 months 2 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 7485 times:
Quoting UA777222 (Reply 12): I know of no major airline that flies into the United States that would put their certificate with the FAA at such a risk.
You fail to understand that it has NOTHING to do with airlines themselves - if the No-Fly list was distributed globally, there are many entities that would be able to obtain it (govt. intelligence services, terrorist groups, crime syndicates) without the consent or even knowledge of the airlines. Therefore, it is best to keep the list closely held, secure, and out of the hands of foreigners, with the exception of a few closely trusted allies.
Gabrielz From United States of America, joined May 2004, 64 posts, RR: 1 Reply 23, posted (7 years 11 months 2 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 7193 times:
Quoting Avek00 (Reply 22): Therefore, it is best to keep the list closely held, secure, and out of the hands of foreigners
Avek00, you know (as well as anyone) that who is trustworthy has nothing to do with their nationality...even if it might give one some "clues".
Venezuela747 From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 1409 posts, RR: 5 Reply 24, posted (7 years 11 months 2 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 7100 times:
Not only are we talking about landing fees, taxi fees, fuel, crew and all that stuff. You also have to take into consideration all the passenger that are probably going to miss their connections, probably ben forced to put some of them in a hotel when they land in the US. Way too much for the airline to handle themselves
ROLL TIDE!!!
25 Avek00: Not at all true - on sensitive matters in the security arena, some countries are simply "trusted" more than others. There are some countries to whom
26 Wunala: There should not be a need for the US to give out a list. I would assume that the airline would bounce its pax listing to a website/computer and that
27 Dutchjet: I find how some people react to situations such as this rather amazing...... 1. Something like 99.9% of all flights going to the US have absolutely no
28 Flpuck6: UA777222, May I ask from which website you got the info for the EU Passenger rights? I'm not at all doubting what you posted; I would love to see the
29 UA777222: I don't have a website (yet) but I did copy it word for word from a packet I got a while back while traveling in the EU. Thanks, Matt
30 Vanguard737: THANK YOU DUTCHJET It is always assuring to see at least a few Europeans get it. Get that the USA isn't the bad guy, the terrorists are. In our world
31 Cgnnrw: As long as I have to give my personal data e.g. finger prints, photo, meal and seat preferences, whether I bought the ticket with cash or credit card
32 Dtwclipper: And you wonder why we are called Ugly Americans....dude give it a rest! Most intelligent Americans do care...Cgnnrw on behalf of such outrageous comm
33 Lnglive1011yyz: Why don't passengers check the list of prohibited items that they cannot take on the plane BEFORE they get to the security line? The same thing appli
34 Dutchjet: Cgnnrw, while I do not agree with your comments, I find DeltaDudes remarks out of line......I think that most here know that Germany and the US are in
35 JCS17: It's not our job. All of the airlines have the "no-fly" list and they are supposed to cross-check pax manifests against the list before leaving the g
36 CHI787ORD: Is there anyone even on staff at those new times for O'hare? at 2 & 3 AM Terminal 5 must be a ghost building.
37 Cgnnrw: I couldn't resist checking your profile and my hunch was correct about your age group. I find it amazing someone who isn't old enough to legally buy
39 ACDC8: I think it's a conspiracy. IMO, I think the American government has something against the Skyteam Alliance! Most of the flights are either AF, KL or A
40 BHXFAOTIPYYC: Technically we (travel agents) are supposed to put in pax data into reservations for US bound flights, like full name, date of birth, passport details
41 Mexicana757: Please go and read the news before you start opening your mouth. Germany and the U.S. are allies. And any country can critisize the U.S. wether its a
42 Theredbaron: Now lets wait for an idiotic terrorist to think they have to take a FOREIGN nation airplane to make a terrorist attack cross the atlantic, or wait an
43 Aither: Af if a terrorist would use his real name...
44 OHLHD: What the hell has gotten into you???? You def watch to much TV. I had a discussion with an US-Captain not so long ago during a flight and we both agr
45 Starlionblue: AFAIK the airline pays. Airlines are responsible for who they carry to another country. In the same way they have to pay for the return of asylum see
46 TheSonntag: And if we had denied you the right to use Ramstein, Landstuhl and all other airbases in Germany, the US would have lost the Iraq war... And if we rev
47 TheSonntag: To got back on topic, who actually is responsible for that "No Fly list"? Even if diversions are extremely rare, these are, of course, very expensive.
48 MarkATL: Quote from DeltaDude8 "Before you bitch remember something- you are not an American...we do not owe you any favors. You are German- and therefore most
49 Nyskymasters: Very interesting reading here. Just one point to make.. IIRC, the US gov't does not have one comprehensive "Do Not Fly List." They actually have a cou
50 Jacobin777: because this isn't some mechanical problem where people could understand the concept/reasoning of returning due to a mechanical problem...this is a H
51 ANITIX87: I may be missing something, but I thought the whole issue here is that other countries don't have the No-Fly list!!!! How can the onus (responsibilit
52 SFO2SVO: This is not to open US-bashing can of worms, I am seriously trying to remember: were there cases when flight originated in US going to %your_favourite
53 Trolley Dolley: Surely if the idea is to disrupt terrorist cells, it would be wiser to notify the crew to monitor pax XYZ onboard, let the flight proceed and track it
54 KarlB737: Report From WLS-TV Video Option of this report available at this site: http://abclocal.go.com/wls/news/070905_ns_airfrance.html
55 YULWinterSkies: Well, this time the idiot came from a US very red State and was, without being conscious of it, bashing its own country educational system/medias by
56 YULWinterSkies: Lfutia, Should we understand that the plane turned around twice and left 3 times? Such a schedule is weird to me...
57 GQfluffy: Who's to say it makes it to it's destination? Did 4 aircraft 4 years ago make their destinations? Just like preventative maintenance on a vehicle. Do
58 Wunala: 2 hours from CDG its over water. Water until it reaches the US. So yes, it should be allowed to continue. Returning it is a bit of a NIMBY situation.
59 MarkATL: The US doesn't order them back to the origin. They merely deny them access to US airspace. Two hours out of CDG if the Captain wanted to land at the n
60 Starlionblue: Actually it's cheaper to go back to CDG because you have all the options available. You can put pax on other flights and so on, and if you need to do
61 GBan: One link is here: http://news.bbc.co.uk/nolpda/ukfs_news/hi/newsid_4267000/4267095.stm If you look at the passenger rights information on the Lufthan
62 OO-AOG: If you land in the middle of nowhere, waiting for a possible clearance from the TSA, and have you crew on over duty .. what do you do with your aircr
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