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WN Wants Out Of PHL?!  
User currently offlineDCAflyboy From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 143 posts, RR: 0
Posted (9 years 14 hours ago) and read 11114 times:

Just spoke with a WN employee who gave me some interesting news. Sorry if this is old (been flying a lot and away from the forum) but he told me WN is going to start service out of Harrisburg, PA (MDT). In addition, he told me WN wants out of PHL. TOTALLY out!

He also told me that their fuel hedges expire in August and their bid for Delta's hedges were nixed by GE who outbid them.

As a US employee this brought a huge smile to my face.

Not sure how factual this all is and I would never wish bad news for another airline...ok, maybe except for WN. But after what happened at BWI I can't help but feel some vindication.

I don't think US could actually say they drove WN out of PHL since I don't think it really was their niche, but we sure surprised them when they didn't kill us or see us die off.

At any rate, the info. made my weekend  Big grin

120 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinePadcrasher From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (9 years 14 hours ago) and read 11070 times:

Delta's hedges? I'm not aware of Delta having any signficant hedges. (10% of fuel needs at $50) and why would they sell those?

I can see WN having a tough time in PHL, but pulling out? Come on?

Fair warning. You're about to get slammed by Southwest's Praetorian Guard.


User currently offlineDAYflyer From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 3807 posts, RR: 3
Reply 2, posted (9 years 14 hours ago) and read 11057 times:

That would likely be very good news for US of course, but I had read that WN was going to increase PHL service, not pull out.


One Nation Under God
User currently offlineIndy From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 4535 posts, RR: 18
Reply 3, posted (9 years 14 hours ago) and read 11035 times:

Here are some guesses...

1. They can't afford to fly into PHL without their hedges.
2. They aren't ready to go head to head with the US/HP final product.
3. They can't get the gate space and/or respect from PHL that they want.
4. The info you were given by the WN employee was just BS.

I'm leaning toward #4. #1 - #2 would be out of character for WN. #3 is a possibility but #4 is most likely.



Indy = Indianapolis and not Independence Air
User currently offlineDCAflyboy From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 143 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (9 years 13 hours ago) and read 11004 times:

I'm only stating what I heard from a WN employee. I know nothing about hedges excpet that DL needed the cash, apparently.

At any rate, I realize this is hearsay. But why is totally pulling out of PHL so unrealistic? They want to totally pull out of SEA.


User currently offlineBWI757 From Israel, joined Dec 2004, 429 posts, RR: 2
Reply 5, posted (9 years 13 hours ago) and read 10945 times:

Harrisburg?????

Only 80 miles from BWI! Its also about 2 hours from PHL, what would they gain by doing THAT? Compete against themselves? Fly into Harrisburg to go to PHL? BWI is a better option IMHO....

(All figures from Mapquest)

BWI757



I live in the US but my heart is in Jerusalem!
User currently offlineCory6188 From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 2686 posts, RR: 6
Reply 6, posted (9 years 13 hours ago) and read 10925 times:

I would be pretty skeptical of this information, especially considering the fact that PHL has been one of WN's fastest-growing cities ever.

User currently offlineQuickmover From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 2489 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (9 years 13 hours ago) and read 10915 times:

I remember when WN first started service at PHL, they said in a press release that it was one of their most successful new cities ever. I really don't think anything has changed except the delays have been tough lately and the USAir/AWA merger. Could it be they are making these noises behind the scenes in order to wrangle more gates?

User currently offlineLambertMan From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 2070 posts, RR: 36
Reply 8, posted (9 years 13 hours ago) and read 10911 times:

Given WN's strategy of avoiding the congested airport, and add in Harrisburg as a nifty alternative, it could be remotely possible.

I'm weary of posting rumors like this, because usually you get powerslammed. Rule of thumb, if it ain't extremely reliable or it doesn't make 100% sense, probably don't post it. Big grin


User currently offlineDCAflyboy From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 143 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (9 years 13 hours ago) and read 10900 times:

Quoting BWI757 (Reply 5):
Only 80 miles from BWI! Its also about 2 hours from PHL, what would they gain by doing THAT? Compete against themselves?

Hence, they would pull out of PHL.


User currently offlineWayfarer From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 10, posted (9 years 13 hours ago) and read 10887 times:

Southwest should not pull out of PHL ... I would say that if WN wants to grow near PHL, they should consider start flying to Wilkes-Barre / Scranton? or Allentown?

User currently offlineSilver1SWA From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 4760 posts, RR: 26
Reply 11, posted (9 years 13 hours ago) and read 10854 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

I think this WN employee decided to have a little fun with a US employee.  Wink


ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
User currently offlineQuickmover From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 2489 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (9 years 13 hours ago) and read 10835 times:

Do they have any investment in PHL that they would lose if they went to Allentown? I could see alot of WN customers making that drive and without delays, it might make sense.

User currently offlineTOLtommy From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 3286 posts, RR: 4
Reply 13, posted (9 years 13 hours ago) and read 10821 times:

Delta doesn't have significant hedges. They sold them last year, thinking that the price of oil had stabilized, and they needed the cash. The higher cost of fuel has more than offset the quick cash infusion they got from the sale.

I'm thinking this is flamebait. Southwest has been happy with the loads at PHL. In fact, I'd say they are even making money at PHL, something US hasn't done in years!

I don't ever take the word of a front line employee as gospel, fact is, they are usually the LAST to know. Usually when a front line employee tells you about alleged new service, company changes, etc, its them telling you what they'd like to see. Sounds to me like made up wishful thinking of a US employee to me.

Totally pull out of SEA? No, they still plan to serve the Seattle market, just looking at flying out of Boeing Field instead, in order to keep costs in line. Again, wishful thinking on somebody's part.


User currently offlineDCAflyboy From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 143 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (9 years 13 hours ago) and read 10799 times:

Quoting LambertMan (Reply 8):
I'm weary of posting rumors like this, because usually you get powerslammed. Rule of thumb, if it ain't extremely reliable or it doesn't make 100% sense, probably don't post it.

I'd be willing to guess that 90 percent of the postings here are not reliable. But those of us in the industry know that we live and breathe rumors. Everything is rumor until we read about it or see it in the media. The general public usually knows things before we the employees.


User currently offlineTockeyhockey From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 950 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (9 years 13 hours ago) and read 10780 times:

MDT is in no way shape or form an alternative airport to PHL. first of all, it's not even in harrisburg -- it's about 20 miles south toward lancaster. second of all, if you live in philly and you are willing to drive to save money, you drive to BWI, not MDT. the flight choices out of MDT are pretty slim as well.

User currently offlineIsitsafenow From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 4984 posts, RR: 24
Reply 16, posted (9 years 13 hours ago) and read 10781 times:

I would NOT put 10 cents into this rumor. Why didn't Herb go to Harrisburg in the first place?
WN isn't stupid. They would not study a market, only to pull out in a year or less.
The only short term service was DET and WN gave Detroit three years to lengthen the runway. Detroit did not so WN left that airport.
safe



If two people agree on EVERYTHING, then one isn't necessary.
User currently offlinePVD757 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 3410 posts, RR: 17
Reply 17, posted (9 years 13 hours ago) and read 10759 times:

I'll just be nice and say that I highly doubt the information you heard was at all accurate...

User currently offlineDCAflyboy From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 143 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (9 years 13 hours ago) and read 10717 times:

Quoting Quickmover (Reply 7):
I remember when WN first started service at PHL, they said in a press release that it was one of their most successful new cities ever.

Of course it was. With $39 intro fares how could it not have been. Duh


User currently offlineFlyPNS1 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 6572 posts, RR: 24
Reply 19, posted (9 years 13 hours ago) and read 10700 times:

I can tell you one part of your story that is definitely false...the expiring hedges in August part.

WN already has significant fuel hedges in place for the remainder of this year, plus continuing into 2006 and 2007. So if WN did leave PHL (which I seriously doubt), it won't be because of the fuel hedges.


User currently offlineDCAflyboy From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 143 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (9 years 13 hours ago) and read 10686 times:

Quoting TOLtommy (Reply 13):
Totally pull out of SEA? No, they still plan to serve the Seattle market, just looking at flying out of Boeing Field instead, in order to keep costs in line. Again, wishful thinking on somebody's part.

You know what I meant. Don't be stupid.


User currently offlineDCAflyboy From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 143 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (9 years 13 hours ago) and read 10641 times:

Quoting Isitsafenow (Reply 16):
Why didn't Herb go to Harrisburg in the first place?
WN isn't stupid. They would not study a market, only to pull out in a year or less.

I have a feeling they regret going to PHL. JUST a feeling, my opinion and from what I hear from WN employees. Let's face it, WN thought US would be dead by now and they would own PHL.


User currently offlineTornado82 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 22, posted (9 years 13 hours ago) and read 10641 times:

Quoting BWI757 (Reply 5):
Harrisburg?????

Only 80 miles from BWI! Its also about 2 hours from PHL, what would they gain by doing THAT? Compete against themselves? Fly into Harrisburg to go to PHL? BWI is a better option IMHO....

Is MDT big enough (gate wise) to handle that influx as well??

Quoting LambertMan (Reply 8):

Given WN's strategy of avoiding the congested airport, and add in Harrisburg as a nifty alternative, it could be remotely possible.

ABE is FAR closer to the PHL metro base than MDT... and ABE would draw Northern NJ as well. And not congested... condense gates for other airlines a bit... we have 15 total... and voila.

Quoting Wayfarer (Reply 10):
Southwest should not pull out of PHL ... I would say that if WN wants to grow near PHL, they should consider start flying to Wilkes-Barre / Scranton? or Allentown?

AVP (W-B/Scranton) is too far out of civilization (by that I mean the PHL/MDT/RDG/LNS/EWR metros). ABE though always seemed better to me than PHL for an airline like WN... and that was BEFORE I moved here even! ABE would be like another remote NYC airport for WN as well. I'm not a fan of WN, but I honestly think ABE would be a very good match for them, and LVIA would love them for it!


User currently offlineGoingboeing From United States of America, joined Dec 1999, 4875 posts, RR: 17
Reply 23, posted (9 years 13 hours ago) and read 10603 times:

I think someone's leg just got pulled.

User currently offlineChrisNH From United States of America, joined Jun 1999, 4079 posts, RR: 2
Reply 24, posted (9 years 13 hours ago) and read 10589 times:

If true it would severely damage the almost invincible reputation at Southwest for pulling out of very few markets and routes. This would be a catastrophic blow to a carrier that prides itself in doing a thorough analysis on cities before starting service at them. It is almost mythical, this reputation. So if they do pull out of PHL, gone will be that reputation.

From what I understand, the comparably stellar financial results that Southwest has reported is due to fuel hedges. Once those go away, Southwest starts looking like all the other carriers in that regard.


25 Post contains images Jfrworld : DCAFlyboy, I've read several of your postings and you don't seem to have much credibility where WN is concerened. All you do is bash and spread misinf
26 DCAflyboy : The FACT remains, US is defending it's territory in PHL tooth and nail. It will not be another BWI. WN hates the fact that they can't kill US. And th
27 Post contains images PHLBOS : DCAflyboy, Granted you've only been on A.net since April of this year; but still that's long enough to know better than to post something of this natu
28 BWI757 : I meant harrisburg - bwi not harrisburg - PHL
29 DCAflyboy : I'm not saying WN will pull out of PHL totally. Just stating what I was told. I personally don't think they would ever pull out of PHL totally. The a
30 Silver1SWA : I'm curious. Were you really speaking to this employee one-on-one? Or did you over-hear a couple WN employees chatting. A lot of airline employees thi
31 DCAflyboy : Give me a break. This is a forum, not a newspaper. Forum means opinions and discussions. So get off your high horse.
32 Tornado82 : Me too. ABE has more gates (15 v 12) as well. A WN operation needs a few gates.
33 DCAflyboy : Yes, one-on-one.
34 Luv2fly : The US/HP merger could very well be the death of both carriers. WN could still end up owning PHL! This merger is a lot like a troubled marriage when
35 PHLBOS : Another reason why this rumor is (as Harry Morgan/Col. Potter would put it) Grade A 100% Bull-cookies; is that given how WN outbid FL at the 11th hour
36 B744F : Who the hell do you think you are?
37 BigGSFO : WN does not have a history of making rapid departures so soon after starting service. Nor are they known for not doing their research. I believe they
38 Post contains images TOLtommy : If I'm not mistaken, you started this thread....
39 Jalto27R : Haha sorry bud, but the big reason WN did so well at PHL was because of the press, and the fact that PHL users were so sick and tired of the monopoly
40 Post contains images PVD757 : What I find funny is that you probably didn't even think about what they were saying before you decided to post it. Most of what you started the threa
41 DCAflyboy : Once again, I admitted this was hearsay!! I'm not trying to be objective, BUD! Like most topics on here, I just thought it would be good discussion a
42 KcrwFlyer : isnt harrisburg a bit small for wn?
43 Post contains links ExFATboy : In the incredibly unlikely event that WN had to pull out of PHL, I think they would consider TTN before ABE. But I think this WN employee is having s
44 Luv2fly : They did pull out of DET as well though they had started that city after they started up DTW. Promised made about improvements for DET never came and
45 Post contains images Typhaerion : I doubt very much that WN wants to kill US. The lack of competition would be more hurtful to them than anything. What, without higher fare alternativ
46 Filejw : Well 90% of what you read here is rumor,but WN did pull out of SFO because of congestion..And you can't get more congested than PHL.
47 DCAflyboy : Don't give the major carriers crap about gouging. If by gouging you mean charging what we think the market will pay, then fine. We gouged. I don't fe
48 DCAflyboy : Thank you Ex...This is one of the reasons why I posted this topic. I wanted to learn more and turn a rumor into fact.
49 BWI757 : Check his posting count and respect rating, Then check yours. Then mosey on over to a.net rules. I heard USAirways is going out of business in a one-
50 PHLBOS : However, WN still serves the region by flying out of OAK. If (and this is a very big if) WN ever had to pull out of PHL; given the size of their PHL
51 Tornado82 : Do they even have the facilities?? ABE is willing and ready for new service... TTN would need work to my knowledge, and the airfield is small. One us
52 Dacman : LOL......HAHAHAHAHAHA.........HEHEHEHEHEHEHEHE!!! Only when Herb stops drinking Wild Turkey..........hehehehe....hahahahaha!!! Mike SNA Ops
53 ScottB : The part about the fuel hedges expiring in August is completely false. Their future hedge positions are extensive, lasting through 2009, and are a ma
54 B744F : And I'm supposed to care about a respected rating... because? Why don't you mosey on over there and point out in what part of the rules did this post
55 Post contains images Dadoftyler : Flyboy, You just keep thinking that "charge what the market will bear" stuff. Sure hope the folks in your PYM department feel the same way you do--and
56 BigGSFO : Actually they left SFO, in my understanding, due to the problems low celings cause with the runway configurations. As we all know, this, during certa
57 Goingboeing : Is this anything like a viatical?
58 Post contains images Lightsaber : DCAflyboy, you did well pointing out that this is word of mouth information. So let's discuss based on that. Personally, WN might be doing this as a
59 Post contains images BWI757 : I thought it indicates that the poster is well respected for their factual statements and well-stated opinions. But I guess some people can interpret
60 ExFATboy : WN would have to invest in the terminal, but Eastwind was operating 737s out of TTN, so I know it can be done. I'm not sure how large an operation TT
61 Post contains images OPNLguy : Unless that one SWA employee was Herb, Gary, or Colleen, I'd take the rumor that SWA wants to leave PHL with a grain of salt, one about the size of R
62 B744F : A respected rating can mean anything, including an inflated ego and thinking you are a mod. Where did that come from? I'm talking about using common
63 DCAflyboy : For everyone who feels I fell for something or had my leg pulled -- I didn't fall for anything. Never said I totally believed it. Only thought it was
64 PHLBOS : In terms of highway access, TTN is right of I-95 (Exits 2 & 3) in the West Trenton area. However, the airfield & runway issues make TTN less attracti
65 Post contains links and images SteveSWA737 : I think we all know that it's just a rumor. Just because information comes from an employee of that company, doesn't make it factual. I found this out
66 Post contains images N702ML : You know...if the Wright Amendment was repealed...Southwest could easily start nonstop PHL-DAL flights. HAHA! Sorry...63 postings regarding Southwest
67 1MillionFlyer : This is why I have not flown US in any meaningful way in 5 years, doing 720 some odd segments on other airlines. US employees always seemed like they
68 Tornado82 : Thanks for the info... I wasn't inferring that TTN didn't have good highway access... just saying what we did have up here... I honestly had no clue
69 DCAflyboy : Let me tell everyone -- I don't have to be objective. I'm not a reporter and this is not a news media outlet. I, along with everyone else on here, am
70 DCAflyboy : Good riddens!! How many pay cuts have you taken and how has your life and standard of living been disrupted and brought down.
71 Runway27right : I thought Col. Potter said Horse Hockey. But in any of the case. Here's just another thread based on nothing. Amazing how much attention is given to
72 STT757 : If they had regrets why expand PHL and go further and open PIT?.. Also what makes folks think HP/US would have any negative effect on WN, HP's main h
73 Post contains images Swadispatcher : Not to mention a few A-Netters...
74 Newkai : Harrisburg!? Since when has WN become Pan Am III!?
75 Tornado82 : What would opening PIT have to do with regrets in PHL, other than the majority of the PIT flights go to PHL?? Regardless of the attitude of some peop
76 1MillionFlyer : First of all, there is no such word a "riddens", it is riddance. rid·dance (n). A deliverance from or removal of something unwanted or undesirable:
77 HPRamper : Maybe another reason to fly a non-WN airline out of PHL other than for routing/system reasons? Like another price that is just as low? It will be some
78 PlanesNTrains : Wow. You know, companies make money for a reason, and it isn't looking for the high-cost supplier just to do them a favor. If there is a perceived hi
79 Dadoftyler : Perhaps, DCAflyboy, if your employer had been been better at keeping its costs and in line--not to mention negotiating contracts that required its un
80 DCAflyboy : Oh, get off it! I do my job professionally and I'm very courteous. But I don't have to kiss anybody's butt.
81 DfwRevolution : I don't know if this has been covered already, I wasn't able to read every reply, but I'd like to address this point: >> DCABoy Thread Start >> He als
82 N917ME : WN is NOT leaving PHL. Actually by early next year DL will be leaving Terminal E and Southwest will be taking over gates E1,3,5,7. WN has great loads
83 Braniff1960 : I think the only reason you started this thread was to get "our" reaction. In now way will WN pull out of PHL. Yeah, and a friend of mine who works fo
84 Jetdeltamsy : while WN has pulled out of a few markets in the past, i don't think they've ever pulled out because they were being whipped by a legacy carrier. the
85 SHUPirate1 : That would surprise me. If I am not mistaken, doesn't Delta have a Crown Room there?
86 PlanesNTrains : No problem. The other carriers will do it for you. It's called Customer Service. Don't want to kiss Ma and Pa kettle's butt? Fine. But you darn well
87 SCCutler : An amusing concept; WN may the only carriers which always respects principle of business first, tending always to responsible financial management ev
88 BishopOfPHL : Maybe Herb flew through PHL recently and had his wallet stolen by the thugs and thieves of PHL; now he wants to abandon ship at all costs due to a dee
89 Swatpamike : Hello all Only time will tell. Maybe we can kill 2 birds with 1 stone. Cheers swatpamike
90 ScottB : This sort of attitude is simply hilarious! Charging several times the cost of providing a service simply because you can (i.e. it's what you "think t
91 Nkops : And ACY has a new terminal on the way
92 Usairways85 : WN in TTN is a pipe dream, even if they hadn't entered PHL in the first place And where exactly will Delta go? I can't think of 5 free gates in the a
93 Post contains images Tornado82 : Say what?? If I go to Continental.com, USAirways.com, Delta.com, nwa.com, etc. and book a flight and it says $275 at the choose flight screen, when I
94 SCCutler : ...always fun to read rants by amateur travelers. Two decades of hardcore business travel has taught me that frequency, consistency and respect make a
95 1MillionFlyer : Niche Airline? WN was the largest domestic carrier in terms of passengers carried last year.
96 Post contains images Tornado82 : And then you spend 90 minutes driving to the nearest airport WN operates from, because the legacies serve that regional airport in your backyard, but
97 1MillionFlyer : From BNA I can go non-stop on WN to: LAX SAN LAS PHX BWI MDW FLL MCO SEA CLE DTW and many others, what is your point?
98 1MillionFlyer : Sure beats making a connection in PIT or CLT to get to the same places 3 hours later.[Edited 2005-07-12 04:37:00]
99 Avek00 : IMHO, WN's only regret within the last five years is that the airline did not move into JFK when they had the chance to establish a large fortress op
100 ScottB : Actually, if you search by price at usairways.com, the taxes and fees are NOT included until you select flights. I see you didn't choose to address a
101 Vegasplanes : Are you forgetting about intra-California flights, they have the most hands down, all the legacies pulled out after purchasing PSA, Air Cal, Reno Air
102 Toxtethogrady : "He also told me that their fuel hedges expire in August and their bid for Delta's hedges were nixed by GE who outbid them." The rumor is bullpucky. S
103 A330323X : Uh, WN overbooks as well, and is in the middle of the pack when it comes to involuntary denied boardings. And most airlines have on the order of 1 ID
104 ScottB : The more popular airports like CAK, FNT, PHF, DAY, MDW, and HOU, right? Let's see... pretty much any intra-California route, most short-hauls from PH
105 Post contains images Jalto27R : Wow, I needed a good laugh after a stressful day. Thanks for that. I think people are starting to realize this thread is a bunch of BS. Man, but I di
106 Post contains images PlanesNTrains : LOL! That's a new one for me. Of course, I am easily entertained . Versus Delta's? Or US's? Or NWA's? Or UA's? etc. Everyone acts like you're evil fo
107 Tornado82 : You mean the same MDW and HOU that WN are HUGE in, right? Add to the list DFW, EWR, LGA. And the DAY is a perfect location which gets them DAY, CMH,
108 PiedmontINT : But it is also much more convenient to not have to drive yourself that extra 90 minutes and fly to an airport that is near where YOU live and not jus
109 TxAgKuwait : >> Wait, on second thought calling you the WN Crusaders ruins the good name of my alma mater Valparaiso University
110 Tornado82 : Precisely! And the closest looking plane livery I've seen to something Barbie would have is going to Fellow Mid-Con alum? A follower of Ron "Thank Yo
111 SCCutler : Nope, although it is a short-sighted business traveler who, when traveling, spends money as if it were not his own. I spend my clients' money like I
112 Stirling : Did you really think about this statement before you typed it? So if I get you correctly, because a business or corporation is paying for the ticket.
113 PHLapproach : That is the biggest BS I have ever heard on this forum. I would have never, ever expected to hear someone say EWR is better than PHL in any way shape
114 PHLapproach : That's interesting, I just checked (12:53am) and that routing would cost $221.60.....
115 Stirling : Great. But what was it BEFORE WN entered the city-pair? That was my point. Compare PHL-OMA and PHL-DSM. This Wednesday, back on Friday. One is a city
116 Post contains images Boeingfever777 : Where are you getting this info from...........your ass? WN studied PHL for awhile before making such a big commitment. And there fuel hedges have no
117 NYCFlyer : DCAFlyBoy - I respect you holding your ground and putting up with the a$$hole remarks of the WN-worshipping crowd. You clearly stated that it was a ru
118 1MillionFlyer : MDW is closer to Downtown and had 18 Million passangers last year, that is hardly an out of the way airport. Where have you been in the last 5 years?
119 Post contains images PHLBOS : He's said both on the Bug Out episode (5th season). Facts? Let's break apart the original post bit-by-bit shall we? In all fairness, while WN may hav
120 Cgnnrw : I'm not going to jump on the WN or US bashing bandwagon and I also hate these "I heard from a good source....." threads. However, I wish to make a few
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