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Trade CO 737-700s For TZ 753s!  
User currently offlineChiGB1973 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 1612 posts, RR: 1
Posted (8 years 9 months 1 week 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 7275 times:

From the discussion board?!?:

It seems that Continental wants ALL of our 757-300's, and in exchange we will be receiving FOURTEEN (14) of their 737-700's. The deal for the ten 737 Classic's seems to be off. Why is this important - first, the classics are as old as dirt (big maintenance $$). The 700's are as new as our 800's. Second, unlike the Classics, pilots would not need to do sim-time on the 700's, saving big $$$, too. Also, the 700's have the same number of seats as the Classics so the lower-seat-capacity business plan is still in play.

Word is we are thiiiiissss close to acquiring TWO (2) 767's.

Word is that 'Indy' is breathing easy, now that we have two (2) superpowers finding interim financing for us.

Word is that scheduled service to Europe starting in early 2006 is still a go.


That's all I can personally say is from a reliable source.
Can it be that the dark cloud over ATA is FINALLY dissipating?!!!

49 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineCMB320 From United States of America, joined Oct 2000, 408 posts, RR: 6
Reply 1, posted (8 years 9 months 1 week 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 7233 times:

Exactly how many 753's does ATA have?

User currently offlineChiGB1973 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 1612 posts, RR: 1
Reply 2, posted (8 years 9 months 1 week 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 7189 times:

12 753s according to www.planemad.net.

M


User currently offlinePanAm330 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 2660 posts, RR: 9
Reply 3, posted (8 years 9 months 1 week 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 7177 times:

I don't mean to be such a stick in the mud, but I find this very hard to believe. CO uses their 73Gs on EWR-California transcons, and they're a very valuable tool from CLE as well. This 'trade' doesn't seem too likely, but what do I know, eh?

User currently offlineBlsbls99 From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 345 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (8 years 9 months 1 week 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 7128 times:

Well, sounds like it would be beneficial for both. CO gets to trade up some of their 752 domestic capacity to a 753, move the 752 to international ops, which is where they are growing and need the capacity. The 73Gs they lose, the obviously need to cut some domestic routes, or shift schedules for better utilization (if they aren't at that point already). Unless those 73Gs are replaced with the 738s that CO is taking from Boeing that were destined for TZ anyway.
TZ gets some smaller more efficient 73Gs to replace 753s (unless the 738s replace the 753s, and the 73Gs replace the 738s), which they are looking for more "right sized" aircraft for their needs.

[Edited 2005-07-12 00:21:20]


319 320 313 722 732 733 735 73G 738 739 742 752 763 772 CRJ D9S ERJ EMB L10 M88 M90 SF3 AT4
User currently offlineDutchjet From Netherlands, joined Oct 2000, 7864 posts, RR: 57
Reply 5, posted (8 years 9 months 1 week 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 7131 times:

Quoting PanAm330 (Reply 3):
I don't mean to be such a stick in the mud, but I find this very hard to believe. CO uses their 73Gs on EWR-California transcons, and they're a very valuable tool from CLE as well. This 'trade' doesn't seem too likely, but what do I know, eh?

CO has 34 73Gs - that would mean 20 were left for long thin routes.

CO uses the 73G less and less on transcons out of EWR - 757s and 738s are far more common now on those routes.

This would make sense - CO find the 73G a bit small and prefers the larger 738s and this is not the first time I have heard that CO would not mind getting rid of all or some of the 73Gs. And, CO does like the 753s......lots of seats and low operating costs; they are a good aircraft for routes like EWR and IAH to LAX/LAS/SFO/FLL/MCO, etc and some Carib services.

My question is - CO was going to take 8 753s, this would mean 4 more, but CO would lose 14 73Gs......a loss of ten aircraft, how will this be handled, a further 738 order? CO already moved up the delivery of 6 738s for delivery this year.


User currently offlineSwadispatcher From United States of America, joined May 2004, 427 posts, RR: 9
Reply 6, posted (8 years 9 months 1 week 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 7074 times:

IF they did do this "swap", Hawaii flights would have issues since the -800's aren't ETOPS yet; so I'm not sure how much of this I believe..

ChiGB, are they even close to getting ETOPS for the -800's yet?? The other question is could the -800's make it LAS/PHX to HNL/OGG with proper ETOPS reserves, etc.. Also, I was under the impression that the Hawaii loads were full enough to warrant the 75's.



Maintain 2300 until Boiler, cleared for the VOR-A approach, report BATLE inbound..
User currently offlineGoCOgo From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 701 posts, RR: 1
Reply 7, posted (8 years 9 months 1 week 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 7056 times:

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 5):
CO has 34 73Gs - that would mean 20 were left for long thin routes.

Planemad says they have 36. I counted 35 at Airfleets, but probably miscounted.

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 5):
CO was going to take 8 753s, this would mean 4 more, but CO would lose 14 73Gs......a loss of ten aircraft,

From the thread starter, it sounds as if CO was already giving up 10 733s for the 753s. (Although I had not heard that before, I thought TZ was returning the 753s straight up) Four more planes for four more planes, albeit much newer aircraft.



"Why you fly is your business, how you fly is ours"
User currently offlineChiGB1973 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 1612 posts, RR: 1
Reply 8, posted (8 years 9 months 1 week 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 7009 times:

Quoting Swadispatcher (Reply 6):
ChiGB, are they even close to getting ETOPS for the -800's yet??

In talking to a 738 pilot before furlough, he didn't think they would ever get ETOPS for a trans-Atlantic route. I do not know what his reasoning was, but I do remember him saying something about the GE engines. As for the Pacific route, I do not know. I think it is a long shot for them to get the approval, personally. I don't have much more of a reason other that personal feelings. I know AQ does it. Still, just a feeling.

I know I just tiptoed all around the question, but it's all I can do.

M


User currently offlineTundra767 From Hong Kong, joined Jan 2005, 430 posts, RR: 4
Reply 9, posted (8 years 9 months 1 week 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 6920 times:

Looks like someon was readin the union site..LOL

From what I understand the 738's are ETOPS and will start flying to Hawaii in DEC. They will continue to be in the two-class configuration. I think after the end of the PHH contract they will bring the 738 to LAX. NOt positive on that yet.


User currently offlineA388 From Netherlands Antilles, joined May 2001, 9564 posts, RR: 11
Reply 10, posted (8 years 9 months 1 week 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 6913 times:

Quoting ChiGB1973 (Reply 8):
In talking to a 738 pilot before furlough, he didn't think they would ever get ETOPS for a trans-Atlantic route. I do not know what his reasoning was, but I do remember him saying something about the GE engines.

GE engines? Aren't all 737s equipped with CFM engines?

A388


User currently offlineChiGB1973 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 1612 posts, RR: 1
Reply 11, posted (8 years 9 months 1 week 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 6879 times:

Quoting A388 (Reply 10):
GE engines? Aren't all 737s equipped with CFM engines?

January 28, 1999 -- EVENDALE, Ohio - GE Aircraft Engines and CFM International, the 50/50 joint company of Snecma of France and GE, won 54 percent of the engine orders for large commercial aircraft* in 1998.
GE and CFM received orders in 1998 for 1,301 engines. GE/CFM also won an industry-leading 1,600 engines in 1997 and 1,298 engine orders in 1996.

http://www.geae.com/aboutgeae/presscenter/other/other_19990128.html

M


User currently offlineIAHcsr From United States of America, joined Jun 1999, 3354 posts, RR: 42
Reply 12, posted (8 years 9 months 1 week 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 6877 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting GoCOgo (Reply 7):
Planemad says they have 36.

36 is the correct number .... All of which will have winglets by the end of the year.



Working very hard to Fly Right....
User currently offlineA388 From Netherlands Antilles, joined May 2001, 9564 posts, RR: 11
Reply 13, posted (8 years 9 months 1 week 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 6861 times:

Ohhh I see, disregard my post... Thanks for the correction  Smile

A388


User currently offlineIkramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 21415 posts, RR: 60
Reply 14, posted (8 years 9 months 1 week 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 6812 times:

From what CLE/EWR people have said, the winglets are the problem with the 73G. The 73G has winglets which makes the wingspan too wide for some gates compared to the 733. While the 753 is also wider, at least you are getting 222 seats (in current 12/210 config) or 213? seats in new config (24/189?) for that gate limitation. Since the 733 and 73G have the same interior configuration, CO is favoring the older plane for anything but the furthest routes at this point.

As for transcon, it looks like for LAX-EWR, CO is slowly moving to 752 with BF cabin over other models. Expect this to continue to better attract premium pax in this market. 753s with 24 first would be good for LAX-IAH, IAH-EWR, ANC in summer, and caribbean and closer latin america flights.



Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
User currently offlineSwadispatcher From United States of America, joined May 2004, 427 posts, RR: 9
Reply 15, posted (8 years 9 months 1 week 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 6723 times:

Quoting ChiGB1973 (Reply 8):
In talking to a 738 pilot before furlough, he didn't think they would ever get ETOPS for a trans-Atlantic route.

Several airlines do BBJs across the pond, would think the type should (?) be certified for the route.

Quoting Tundra767 (Reply 9):
From what I understand the 738's are ETOPS and will start flying to Hawaii in DEC.

I had heard the same thing from my friend over there, but that was a month or two ago. I didn't know if certification had gone through or not.


Anyone know if the 738's would have the range, with ETOPS reserves, to do LAS/PHX-Hawaii with a full load??



Maintain 2300 until Boiler, cleared for the VOR-A approach, report BATLE inbound..
User currently offlineSTT757 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 16689 posts, RR: 51
Reply 16, posted (8 years 9 months 1 week 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 6594 times:

CO already has an existing agreement with Boeing for 8 of ATA's 12 757-300s which they start taking delivery of this month , that deal is between Boeing (who owns those aircraft) and CO.

I don't see where 14 CO 737-700s comes in to play for the remaining 4 ATA 757-300s, unless it also included additional 757-200s or 737-800s.

CO is not going to "trade" 14 737-700s for 4 757-300s, unless it included additional 757-200s and or 737-800s all three of which CO would love to acquire under great terms.



Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
User currently offlineCOERJ145 From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 1421 posts, RR: 1
Reply 17, posted (8 years 9 months 1 week 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 6499 times:

I also belive CO uses 73Gs on EWR to the carribean. I know they use 73Gs to SXM during peak season. Also, where are the ATA 767s gonna come from? ex UA/AA?

-Jeff M


User currently offlineToxtethogrady From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 1013 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (8 years 9 months 1 week 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 6474 times:

"It seems that Continental wants ALL of our 757-300's, and in exchange we will be receiving FOURTEEN (14) of their 737-700's."

CAL already got them all. ATA only has the 200's left. Considering the conjecture is Continental will BUY 14 737-800's, I have to wonder if this is another of those wonderfully mixed-up rumors that becomes more garbled with each telling...


User currently offlineVegasplanes From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 778 posts, RR: 2
Reply 19, posted (8 years 9 months 1 week 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 6469 times:

73G's have no problem flying LAS-HNL nonstop with a full load, Aloha flies one daily rotation on this flight as well as from SAN and SNA.

User currently offlineLN-MOW From United States of America, joined Jan 2000, 1907 posts, RR: 14
Reply 20, posted (8 years 9 months 1 week 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 6451 times:

Quote:

CAL already got them all. ATA only has the 200's left.

ATA was as of this morning still operating 10 757-300's .....



- I am LN-MOW, and I approve this message.
User currently offlineSTT757 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 16689 posts, RR: 51
Reply 21, posted (8 years 9 months 1 week 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 6430 times:

Quoting Toxtethogrady (Reply 18):
CAL already got them all.



Quoting LN-MOW (Reply 20):
ATA was as of this morning still operating 10 757-300's .....

The CO deal with Boeing is for 8 of ATA's 12 757-300, the deliveries start this month. It will leave ATA with 4 757-300s.



Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
User currently offlineMNeo From Bulgaria, joined Mar 2004, 776 posts, RR: 1
Reply 22, posted (8 years 9 months 1 week 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 6423 times:

Quoting Swadispatcher (Reply 15):
Several airlines do BBJs across the pond, would think the type should (?) be certified for the route.

But one has to take the account that the BBj2 has a range of over 7000Nm thus it can afford to go via the non-direct route even if its lacking the ETOPS requirement.



Powered by Maina
User currently offlineVortex From United States of America, joined Jul 2004, 99 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (8 years 9 months 1 week 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 6422 times:

I am now wearing my hip waders. As everyone knows in this industry, until you see the planes on property, don't believe a thing. There is another post about the first TZ 737-300 arriving in Indy, which is consistent with the reports that first plane would be on property this summer.

Happy Flying

Vortex


User currently offlineATA767 From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 419 posts, RR: 1
Reply 24, posted (8 years 9 months 1 week 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 6419 times:

For the actual court documents pertaining to this issue click on: http://docs.bmccorp.net/ATA/docs/insb_1-04-bk-19866_2534.pdf

Seems like everyone here is speculating and knows very little about the actual situation.
The 737-800 ETOPS is eminent. The 737-700 are in scope currently and will result in the depletion of ATA's 757-300's from the fleet.

ATA will most likely be commencing trans Atlantic service in 2006 (BWI,PIT,PHL) could be launch cites.

The Company has announced a PHX (757 Pilot) base for this fall .Also the turnover of SFO (Oct) and LAX (Jan 31) Hawaii flying to the 737-800.

Ponder that!


25 Gigneil : They'd just fly the 752s on Hawaii while the 738s were certified. Not for any reason. The 738 is an ETOPS capable plane and ATA is an ETOPS capable c
26 Tundra767 : It is my understand they will be flying these on LAS/PHX I think this wil start before they bring hte 738 to LAX and SFO. Will be perfect as HP will
27 Avek00 : The regular pax 738 simply doesn't have the legs for much more than EWR/BOS-DUB/SNN and vv. on a year-round nonstop basis, and costs would become a m
28 Post contains links FlyHoss : I saw a 757-300 (with Rolls Royce RB211 engines) for sale at www.OKAviation.com - isn't this one of ATA/TZ's planes? Does anyone have a way to find ou
29 A340Spotter : FlyHoss, There's only one 757-200 and it never states that it's RR powered, at least from what I can see on that website you listed. The first 757-300
30 Ikramerica : But one also has to take into account that part 121 and part 135 ETOPS are not figured the same way.
31 Gigneil : I missed this earlier. No, no it doesn't even remotely have a 7000nm range. The BBJ2's range is considerably less than the BBJ's, which is a max of a
32 BY738 : Any idea where the TZ transatlantic routes would be to ?
33 Dutchjet : I think its entirely possible that CO will end up with all of ATA 757-300s, 8 out of 12 are already definite, and if ATA is going to go with the 738 t
34 Dutchjet : Rumor was that ATA would fly from the US to Cologne, Germany......I think that it was even announced. ATA was always unclear as to which US cities th
35 Jetter2 : God this is amazing! I never thought I would see the day that 737's are flying to Hawaii!! I found it odd enough that a 757 was doing it but wow..what
36 Post contains images Gigneil : They have been for several years now, buddy. N
37 Vortex : I asked around and here is what I got on the issue: "Take it for what it's worth, but over the last few days I heard from 2 different sources that we
38 AKelley728 : AQ (Aloha) has been doing this for years.
39 Post contains links FlyHoss : 2000 Boeing 8500 Hollister CA $35,000,000 Add to Favorites Take Notes 2000 B-757-300, 8500 TTSN, 3200 TCYSN, RB 211-535 E4-B137 engines, 271,000 MGTW.
40 A340Spotter : FlyHoss, No problem, but I'll help dispel the theory that it's an ATA 757-300 listed as well... 1. 2000 build. ATA's first one rolled out in June 2001
41 Sllevin : In that case (not saying it's likely), I'd be willing to bet that they'd arrange to lease direct from Southwest, or otherwise get -7H4 spec airframes
42 Post contains images Tornado82 : I seriously doubt ATA will come rolling back in to PIT on a blaze of glory to start Trans-Atlantic, after packing up shop in the winter time. Althoug
43 ConcordeBoy : ...problem being: those flights were contingent upon premium tickets and cargo-- two elements that the 752 is among the least proficient aircraft to
44 Post contains images Tornado82 : I know that, but the PIT airport people would take whatever they can get... and ATA has definitely made some foolish growth decisions in the past. Bu
45 Swadispatcher : Absolutely, given the opportunity. And we would end up sending them a ton of folks, if Hawaii is any indication..
46 Tornado82 : That being the case... bring the operation to Pittsburgh, WN is already a media darling there... I wonder if US would bring at least one 767 a day in
47 ATA767 : The code share is adding a good baseline of customers to ATA's operation (nearing 30% on Avg). With the addition of more markets and Europe, the sky i
48 Swadispatcher : Did ya get my email with the #'s ?
49 Post contains images IAHcsr : I haven't checked, but if all the TZ have reg#s in sequence N550-561TZ, and 559 is to become CO Ship 869 (instead of 860). Then I suspect there could
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