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LX Suspends 52 Pilots - Security Concerns Saab 2000  
User currently offlineGlidepath73 From Germany, joined Mar 2005, 1020 posts, RR: 45
Posted (9 years 2 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 9097 times:

Hi all!

I've found this article at "Rheinische Post" this morning. It says, SWISS suspended 52 pilots, cause they wrote an open letter, concerning security in the Saab 2000 cockpits.

Does anybody know what's the problem with the Saab 2000 cockpit?

Sorry, it's only German:


Basel (rpo). Nachdem am Freitag ein offener Brief von Piloten der Swiss wegen angeblicher Sicherheitsproblem veröffentlich wurde, hat die Fluggesellschaft jetzt reagiert und 52 ihrer 72-Saab-Piloten mit sofortiger Wirkung vom Dienst suspendiert.
Gleichzeitig wurde gegen sie ein Disziplinarverfahren eingeleitet, wie die Airline in der Nacht zum Dienstag bekannt gab. Die Swiss reagierte damit auf einen offenen Brief eines Teils der Saab-Piloten vom vergangenen Freitag, in dem von Sicherheitsproblemen im Cockpit die Rede gewesen war.

Die Swiss erklärte, sie nehme die Aussagen der Piloten ernst. Die Sicherheit der Saab-Flüge ab Basel sei aber zu jeder Zeit gewährleistet. Nach eingehender Analyse habe sich die Swiss dennoch entschlossen, die Flugtauglichkeit jener Piloten durch Experten zu überprüfen, die den Brief unterschrieben hätten.

52 Piloten wurden deshalb mit sofortiger Wirkung vorübergehend vom Dienst suspendiert. Nach einer positiven Beurteilung sollen sie wieder in den Dienst integriert werden.

Weiter wurden gegen die betroffenen Piloten Disziplinarverfahren eingeleitet. Eine Delegation der Geschäftsleitung will zudem den Dialog mit den Piloten fortsetzen.

Die Swiss operiert ab Basel mit einer Flotte von sieben Saab-2000-Flugzeugen und beschäftigt dafür 72 Piloten. In Zürich und Genf werden keine Saab-2000-Maschinen eingesetzt. Die Airline will die Auswirkungen der Maßnahmen auf den Flugbetrieb so gering wie möglich halten.


Aviation! That rocks...
85 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinePM From Germany, joined Feb 2005, 6868 posts, RR: 63
Reply 1, posted (9 years 2 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 9030 times:

There's no problem with the SAAB 2000. The problem is the pilots' state of mind. The future of the fleet is in doubt and the pilots haven't been told if they will keep their jobs or not. So 52 of the 72 pilots have signed an open letter saying that this insecurity is a potential safety hazard. (If you can't sleep at night because you're worried about the future you may not be in a fit state to fly tomorrow morning.) They want a decision - one way or the other - to be made quickly.

The company's reaction has been to say that if these 52 pilots have concerns that they may not be safe then they had better be suspended and checked out on simulators so that their competence can be established. Meanwhile, they are being disciplined for making their letter public.

As far as I know, LX have ten or a dozen SAAB 2000s still flying for them. (Others are leased out.) Will this suspension have much of an impact on services?

There's more (auf Deutsch!) here:

http://www.nzz.ch/index.html;jsessio...d=88E86D229BF8E3BB7419C0A781CF53EA


User currently offlineGlidepath73 From Germany, joined Mar 2005, 1020 posts, RR: 45
Reply 2, posted (9 years 2 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 9006 times:

Thanks for the information.

LX stated they will secure all the flight's from BSL. Maybe LX will hire more a/c from other airlines to do the flight's for them in the future. (As Cirrus and Denim Air is flying already for LX)

Regards,
Patrick



Aviation! That rocks...
User currently offlinePM From Germany, joined Feb 2005, 6868 posts, RR: 63
Reply 3, posted (9 years 2 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 8972 times:

It does seem that LX are still uncertain what to do below the A319. I honestly wonder if the new Embraers will ever arrive. The ERJ-145s and SAAB 2000s seem to be on the way out. What chance LX will top up their ARJ fleet?! Between LX and LH they have quite a few.

User currently offlineRJ100 From Switzerland, joined Nov 2000, 4118 posts, RR: 29
Reply 4, posted (9 years 2 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 8960 times:

The whole thing stinks.

I know from various sources that LX decided to reduce services from BSL to PMI, VLC and to drop Naples (who cares anyway, we dont need them here). That was before the letter of the LX pilots. Now they have too many pilots and need a reason to lay them off. Once again LX is close to illegality.

@Patrick: LX did not confirm that they will secure flights out of BSL. They wanted to present a solution months ago but simply nothing happened. They have no idea what to do. Because they know that all the current routes out of BSL will get replaced in no time if they drop them. So they simply shut up so that their partners (airports), customers and staff cannot plan a damn thing.

Im flying with LX next Monday BSL-ZRH-CDG-ZRH-BSL. For the first time in my life I am not looking forward to board an aircraft. This far we have made it in Switzerland!  Sad

Regards,
RJ100



none
User currently offlineGlidepath73 From Germany, joined Mar 2005, 1020 posts, RR: 45
Reply 5, posted (9 years 2 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 8879 times:

Yes it's not understandable that LX reduced the services in BSL almost into nothing.
Really a shame...



Aviation! That rocks...
User currently offlineGerardo From Spain, joined May 2000, 3481 posts, RR: 31
Reply 6, posted (9 years 2 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 8859 times:

Sorry RJ, but that's "this far you have it". I for one am glad, that LX suspends pilots which publicly say, they can't guarantee for the safety in the cockpit.

As I replied already in Flighforum: I imagine myself, what my boss would do, if I tell him, I don't feel fit for my job anymore.

In my opinion, the LX management handled it 100% correctly. The pilots write to the management, that they don't feel 100% fit for their job and that the security in the cockpit is at a risk, due to the actual situation. What do you expect? What would passengers expect? What do the different regulations say about this? I thought "Safety first" was top priority.

I guess, if the LX managment had done nothing after that letter, you would probably come up pointing with fingers at them for letting them fly and putting security at a risk.  Yeah sure

I reckon, the situation for the Saab pilots is a bad one, but nevertheless, threatening with security problems was dumb.

Gerardo



dominguez(dash)online(dot)ch ... Pushing the limits of my equipment
User currently offlineRJ100 From Switzerland, joined Nov 2000, 4118 posts, RR: 29
Reply 7, posted (9 years 2 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 8844 times:

Of course it was an own goal. Because LX is too stupid to realize what the letter means.

Promising to present an option for the pilots and then simply shut up is not an elegant way.

In my opinion the letter was wrong-completely agree- they should have gone on strike instead. Or they should do it- from now on until late October.

Regards,
RJ100



none
User currently offlineRJ100 From Switzerland, joined Nov 2000, 4118 posts, RR: 29
Reply 8, posted (9 years 2 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 8594 times:

So far 6 flights to/from BSL are cancelled. People rebooked or stranded. Very good since a lot of passengers will be pleased with the LH Cityline service (a lot of people rebooked to and via MUC).

Seems like SWISS (what a name...) gives themselves completely up in BSL. But since they dont need customers it's no problem. They only need arrogance and false pride. Can you believe that they have (already before the pilot problems) grounded 3 Saabs during the high season? Why not flying to some nice summer destinations? Oh yeah, it could turn out to be a profit so they dont do it.

They have nothing to do in aviation business. If your Saab costs 4900 Euros per flying hour while others charge 3000 Euros (profit included) for a MD-90 then maybe you should leave the business to the people who understand their work.

RJ100



none
User currently offlineAirMale From Botswana, joined Sep 2004, 376 posts, RR: 1
Reply 9, posted (9 years 2 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 8456 times:

RJ100, why worry if passengers from BSL take LH or LX???? The revenue goes all in the same pocket. LH & LX are one company. Why worry?


.....up there with the best!
User currently offlineRJ100 From Switzerland, joined Nov 2000, 4118 posts, RR: 29
Reply 10, posted (9 years 2 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 8439 times:

I dont worry at all.  Smile

I hope that LX will leave BSL, we are way better off without them.
I am just upset how they treat everyone else, especially their staff, partner airports and customers.

But like I said before. Everything is past in autumn. SWISS exactly knows that most of the routes currently served out of BSL will get replaced. That's why they simply say nothing. If SWISS would be a football team, every single player would have been sent off by red cards due to foul play.  Wink

Regards,
RJ100



none
User currently offlineAirMale From Botswana, joined Sep 2004, 376 posts, RR: 1
Reply 11, posted (9 years 2 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 8407 times:

RJ100: for someone who doesn't worry at all, you make a hell of a lot of noise.
Relax. Have a drink. Cheers!!!!!



.....up there with the best!
User currently offlineRJ100 From Switzerland, joined Nov 2000, 4118 posts, RR: 29
Reply 12, posted (9 years 2 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 8340 times:

I dont worry if someone flies LH or LX. But I worry what happens with the former Crossair pilots and crews (the few still remaining).

Sometimes it is important to make noise. I contribute in a lot of forums (also here in Switzerland) and I get a lot of responses to my posts. I had the possibility to meet some very interesting people. Although afraid to contribute in the topics directly they contacted me and since then back me up with detailed information on the whole "case". I have all the necessary proof for what Im telling here (for instance about the EuroCross profitability, load factors that I make public etc.).

This is why Im getting upset, because many many people here write complete BS with no facts behind it. And in the end someone even has the courage to tell us down here in BSL we are the guilty ones for the mess.

I will follow your advice AirMale and will go for a cool drink now. Wish you a good one.  Smile

Regards,
RJ100



none
User currently offlineRJ100 From Switzerland, joined Nov 2000, 4118 posts, RR: 29
Reply 13, posted (9 years 2 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 8119 times:

There will be at least 10 flights to/from BSL cancelled tomorrow.

Oh and according to some interviews LX still does not have a single clue about what happens with the Saab2000 pilots after October.

RJ100



none
User currently offlineSaab2000 From Switzerland, joined Jun 2001, 1610 posts, RR: 11
Reply 14, posted (9 years 2 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 6361 times:

SWISS still exists???

Sorry, had to say it. I have been gone from MY airline for over 18 months now. Too bad, but I guess my opportunities have been pretty good in the US too.

There will be a pilot shortage in Switzerland. SWISS is burning their bridges.

One word to the German speakers here. Sicherheit translated to English is not only "Security". It is also "Safety". I think that the article referred to safety rather than security. Just trying to help out. Not trying to step on anyone's toes here...... Big grin

I am sad to hear that this fiasco situation is still going on over there. I refuse to say anymore who is right and who is wrong. Everyone here knows my opinion, but I am somewhat disappointed in my colleagues' mentality. But I am also disappointed in SWISS and their "leadership". Too bad this Kindergarten mentality still exists over there.

I think it is absolutely scandalous that SWISS cannot make it work with the former Crossair people since Crossair used to do well on many of these routes. Crossair made a profit. Why is SWISS on ex-Crossair routes not???????????



smrtrthnu
User currently offlineANITIX87 From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 3299 posts, RR: 13
Reply 15, posted (9 years 2 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 6332 times:
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One quick question. Will this affect my LCY-GVA flight or my ZRH-LHR flight in two weeks? I know SWISS flies both Saab2000's and Bae's into LCY, but I don't know which ones run the LCY-GVA route, and what aircraft is used on ZRH-LHR. I think it's an A320 but I'm not sure...

TIS



www.stellaryear.com: Canon EOS 50D, Canon EOS 5DMkII, Sigma 50mm 1.4, Canon 24-70 2.8L II, Canon 100mm 2.8L, Canon 100-4
User currently offlineGerardo From Spain, joined May 2000, 3481 posts, RR: 31
Reply 16, posted (9 years 2 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 5671 times:

I don't think so. AFAIK, only the BSL operations are affected, as the S2000 only fly from there.

Gerardo



dominguez(dash)online(dot)ch ... Pushing the limits of my equipment
User currently offlineMH017 From Netherlands, joined Apr 2005, 1684 posts, RR: 31
Reply 17, posted (9 years 2 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 5606 times:

Today, 12JUL05, the LX morning- and afternoonflights BSL-AMS were operated by a Dash8-300 D-BOBU, so they operate but with wetleased equipment and crew


don't throw away tomorrow !
User currently offlineSllevin From United States of America, joined Jan 2002, 3376 posts, RR: 6
Reply 18, posted (9 years 2 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 5521 times:

Companies have to be very careful.

Can you imagine if a Saab2000 had crashed after that letter was sent? Even in Europe, it would open SWISS up to massive damages, and be portrayed in a terrible light ("they flew even though the pilots had warned them...")

SWISS had no choice. If I was a manager there and got a letter like that, I'd have done the same thing.

Steve


User currently offlineSWISSER From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 19, posted (9 years 2 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 5506 times:

Quoting RJ100 (Reply 12):
dont worry if someone flies LH or LX. But I worry what happens with the former Crossair pilots and crews (the few still remaining).

If those former pilots reacted with a bit more professionalism of the situation there in right now, these things could be avoided...
Now they make it themeselves only more complicated if they want to keep there job in the cockpit, we are not in the mid 90's anymore...

I suppose you are still not over the fact that the SR group went bankrupt?

I still hope you remembered what happened here in Belgium?
460 pilots got fired in a minute and never be hired again...
So get over it...

Also consider if LX decides too completely whitdraw service at BSL,
who would volture this great airport?
Yes, the LCC, if this actually happens, it will become very difficult for traditional carriers to operate there and BSL will probably evolve in a point to point airport like Luton or Hahn without any connection possibility...So traditional customers today of BSL will simply dissapear...

[Edited 2005-07-13 23:31:40]

User currently offlineRJ100 From Switzerland, joined Nov 2000, 4118 posts, RR: 29
Reply 20, posted (9 years 2 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 5471 times:

Hi SWISSER

Quoting SWISSER (Reply 19):
If those former pilots reacted with a bit more professionalism of the situation there in right now, these things could be avoided...

So in your opinion if the pilots did nothing they could keep the jobs? Probably not...

Quoting SWISSER (Reply 19):
I suppose you are still not over the fact that the SR group went bankrupt?

Crossair had the perfect product for the Swiss market. When SAir got busted, Crossair could have taken over the routes out of ZRH, formerly operated by Swissair. That means instead of flying A-321s to places to pick up low yielded transfer passengers, they could have concentrated on high frequency Embraer-145 or RJ100 services on these routes (with a higher yield due to point-to-point passengers). Plus, they could have taken over some longhaul routes (but only where a home market exists).
But no, Crossair was forced to take over the Swissair fleet (Swissair's flight operations were loss making too since years...). They were forced to take over something that did not work in the past (and could not work this time because after 9-11 the circumstances were even worse in the flying business). It was an economical suicide! So after some months they realized: Our hub in ZRH is too big, let's close the hub in BSL (which was profitmaking in the Crossair times). The passengers will simply go to ZRH to fill the planes. It was a mistake since other carriers are now taking away these passengers.

And now we have some Saabs left who need to take a big part of the longhaul fleets cost which results in losses so they cut the rest too.

Sorry guys if I cannot forget this! I am very sorry! Because it is simply unfair. Yes, and now call me a localist, a past-lover, a whiner, a frustrated whatever...but you cannot change that it was unfair and will be unfair forever!

Quoting SWISSER (Reply 19):
I still hope you remembered what happened here in Belgium?
460 pilots got fired in a minute and never be hired again...
So get over it...

Yes this is sad and I have always felt with everyone who has lost its job. But the case is different. SN and SR were financially in a bad shape while Crossair was a healthy company.

Quoting SWISSER (Reply 19):
Also consider if LX decides too completely whitdraw service at BSL,
who would volture this great airport?
Yes, the LCC, if this actually happens, it will become very difficult for traditional carriers to operate there and BSL will probably evolve in a point to point airport like Luton or Hahn without any connection possibility...So traditional customers today of BSL will simply dissapear...

There will be more LCCs in BSL soon. But BSL traditionally has a lot of good paying customers, there will be always carriers such as LH, AF, SK, OS, BA. No, we dont need SWISS here, the day they will give up AMS, KL will step in the next day, once they give up MAN bmi will step in, probably with a even higher flight frequency. And so on and so on...
You simply cannot compare BSL to Luton or Hahn since Hahn does not have its own potential while BSL has its local passengers.

Best regards,
RJ100



none
User currently offlineZRH From Switzerland, joined Nov 1999, 5566 posts, RR: 36
Reply 21, posted (9 years 2 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 5427 times:

Quoting RJ100 (Reply 20):
No, we dont need SWISS here, the day they will give up AMS, KL will step in the next day,

There is a big difference whether Swiss or KLM flies BSL to AMS (this is only an example, it could also be BA to London or LH to FRA etc.). For Swiss it is a point to point flight for which they need every day a full aircraft with high yield passengers, that it can be run economically. For KLM it is not so important what kind of passengers they have (and how many) because the flight serves their hub for the long-haul flights (the flight even could make loss and still stay worth for KLM). IMO there are only two economical possibilities (in our days) to serve a secondary airport like BSL: either you are a legacy carrier and you feed your hub or you are a LCC and can fly point to point. The problem of Swiss is that their hub is too close to Basel. Even big airlines like AF, LH, BA etc. mostly fly to their hubs and much less point to point flights. For example in the more than ten times bigger country Germany, LH has only two hubs (FRA and MUC), for this I can not see having Swiss in our tiny country more than one within 100 km. LH mainly flies from other German cities to FRA and MUC and almost not between HAM and TXL or DUS and HAM etc. Or, other example, in France almost everything runs over Paris (try to find a AF flight between Marseille and Lyon). There also the LCCs rule. Don't worry when Swiss sees the possibility to earn any Franc on a flight out of Basel they will do it. It is only a matter of calculation and not of emotions or politics (they need every Franc)   . BTW I read somewhere that the decision about the BSL flights now highly depends on LH. For that ask Mr Mayrhuber and not anymore Mr Franz.

[Edited 2005-07-14 01:47:43]
[Edited 2005-07-14 01:54:55]

[Edited 2005-07-14 01:55:49]

[Edited 2005-07-14 01:56:51]

[Edited 2005-07-14 02:00:43]

User currently offlineSaab2000 From Switzerland, joined Jun 2001, 1610 posts, RR: 11
Reply 22, posted (9 years 1 week 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 5336 times:

I stand with RJ100.

The Saab pilots maybe could have done things differently, but the management of SWISS has been a joke since day 1.

I miss my job there, but I sure don't miss the stupid internal politics.

I know a bunch of those dudes, having flown the SB-20 for 2 years at SWISS. There is not really a safety risk and they should not say that there is one. It implies a threat and the company had no choice.

But the company cannot be held blameless either. It is a stupid situation and I feel sorry for the Swiss people who still have to live with that crap in Blick every day.

Glad I work in the US now. Working for a regional here involves at least a bit more respect and future than in Europe. We are losing pilots from my company to Continental, JetBlue, Southwest, AirTran, FedEx, UPS, etc. I have my papers in at most of those, even though I would rather return to Europe to fly. That stupid "regional/mainline" mentality over there is what has led to this situation.



smrtrthnu
User currently offlineRJ100 From Switzerland, joined Nov 2000, 4118 posts, RR: 29
Reply 23, posted (9 years 1 week 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 5219 times:

Hi ZRH

First thing that I want to say is that I respect you as a fair discussion partner, which is actually unique since in other forums the discussion runs out of control very fast.

Anyway, just a few thoughts.

Quoting ZRH" class=quote target=_blank>ZRH (Reply 21):
There is a big difference whether Swiss or KLM flies BSL to AMS (this is only an example, it could also be BA to London or LH to FRA etc.). For Swiss it is a point to point flight for which they need every day a full aircraft with high yield passengers, that it can be run economically.

Swiss has these high yield passengers. Just look on load factors. The routes are not doing that bad out of BSL and as a frequent flyer I can witness it by my own eyes. The fact remains: SWISS cannot operate a Saab2000 sucesfully even if they have a 100% load, simply because they have too many overhead costs (from the longhaul fleet). And once again, something must be wrong with them if they need to charge you 4900 Euros for a Saab2000 flying hour while others can give you a MD-90 for 3000 Euros/hour (profit included). That said, if you dont have a fixed cost problem, a Saab2000 flying hour costs you definitely less than 3000 Euros. Let's assume that a flying hour would cost you 2000 Euros (it's probably less!) then it's simply unbelievable that they cannot operate on point to point routes where they have good paying passengers-and a lot of them! Make a calculation: BSL-AMS-BSL would brake even with a handful of good paying passengers. Now, remember the times when Crossair was flying around 100 business men from LCY to BSL, imagine this revenue and imagine the profit. Funny that LX dropped this route soon after they have started. Crossir always made money with it's own operations. And do you want to know what? They were losing money with the wet-lease contracts to Swissair.

Quoting ZRH" class=quote target=_blank>ZRH (Reply 21):
(the flight even could make loss and still stay worth for KLM)

Yes, even better if they make a profit then, which most of the carriers have with the routes out of BSL. Again, Basel is not a hillbilly town. If you think that Lufthansa makes a loss with the 48 business pax they have on every flight to FRA then you are simply wrong.

Quoting ZRH" class=quote target=_blank>ZRH (Reply 21):
Even big airlines like AF, LH, BA etc. mostly fly to their hubs and much less point to point flights. For example in the more than ten times bigger country Germany, LH has only two hubs (FRA and MUC), for this I can not see having Swiss in our tiny country more than one within 100 km. LH mainly flies from other German cities to FRA and MUC and almost not between HAM and TXL or DUS and HAM etc. Or, other example, in France almost everything runs over Paris (try to find a AF flight between Marseille and Lyon).

In the more than ten times bigger country Germany, they dont have much more longhaul planes than in ZRH. So according to your logic, LX needs drastically reduce it's longhaul fleet out of ZRH...

Regards,
RJ100



none
User currently offlineHBIHLtoEZE From Switzerland, joined Aug 2004, 281 posts, RR: 2
Reply 24, posted (9 years 1 week 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 5149 times:

Hi RJ100,

I have been following your posts for quite a while now and found them nicely enthusiastic and worth reading.
Even though I feel kind of the same way for the former LX pilots as you do, namely sorry, I think you are very unbalancedly bias to BSL and you seem to completely overlook the fact that Swiss have finally found its track (even though not focusing on BSL) and please not only passengers but also the media again.

Times have changed: it is not the 1990s anymore, a concept like Crossair then developed would not work anymore - with the times prices, concepts and travelling habits have thoroughly altered.
Just one eg:
Too many Britons once praising LX and Euroairport have found themselves onboard of Ryanairs and Easyjets when travelling southwards.
Weren't you exhilarated when EZY opened a new base at BSL?
In German one says: "Des einen Leid, des anderen Freud" (roughly translated by one's pity, is another's pleasure).

When you mention the high operating costs of Swiss' Saabs and compare them to Hello's MD-90s - you compare apples to oranges.

As ZRH states: If Swiss makes money out of BSL, they will continuously serve BSL, otherwise days are numbered, politics, now under LH leadership, do not count any longer.


Quoting RJ100

In the more than ten times bigger country Germany, they dont have much more longhaul planes than in ZRH. So according to your logic, LX needs drastically reduce it's longhaul fleet out of ZRH...

Am I mistaken or aren't exactly Swiss' long haul operations profitable while the European routes struggle ?
Look: Swiss have 9 A330s and 9 A340s...LH 30 747-400s, 40 A340s, 10 A330s...
Singapore has a population of 4 million, but SQ have 30+ 747-400s, endless 777, some A340-500s...
Indonesia has 210 million, GA 4 747-400, 5 DC-10s and 6 A330...
again apples and oranges - higher populated countries do not necessarily generate more long haul planes. It's something else that creates the need for widebodies.

Quoting RJ100:

Basel is not a hillbilly town. If you think that Lufthansa makes a loss with the 48 business pax they have on every flight to FRA then you are simply wrong.

Show me the 737-500 (or Avro RJ 85) that carries 48 paying biz pax.

The thing is, I absolutely share your passion for aviation and I am also moved by what is going on right now, but I think your dubious numbers are rather a sign for blind anger than cool mind.


By the way: I would never bash Basel, I even think that Zurich needs Basel - be it aviation- football - or art-wise.

Cheers and calm down a bit.

HBIHL



Our battered suitcases were piled on the sidewalk again; we had longer ways to go. But no matter, the road is life.
25 Post contains images ZRH : I never said, that Basel is a hillbilly town . I know that there is big business (pharma etc.). But that is not only the point. Look for example at D
26 Post contains images RJ100 : HB-IHL and ZRH I am actually not biassed on BSL. Honestly I think that BSL and ZRH (and all the towns between them) have a unique potential, not only
27 HBIHLtoEZE : Hey RJ100, well, as said before, I like your enthusiasm and you certainly contributed to my understanding of the not-so-nice things that happen(ed) in
28 Irishjohn : RJ100 When was CROSSAIR profitable? Unless I am mistaken it required major funding from SWISSAIR, almost annually! What made SWISS possible was the si
29 Post contains images RJ100 : I don't have figures on that, but my bet is that both longhaul traffic and regional traffic were having troubles in the last few years, leaving only
30 HBIHLtoEZE : Hey RJ100, thank you for your quick response. I was thrilled when Suter brought back the Douglas era with the MD-90s, and I would love it to see more
31 Post contains images RJ100 : HB-IHL: Thanks man. I am realistic enough to know that it is a long way and hard work. The whole thing is in a very early stage but I am enough self c
32 Mandala499 : Bring back Moritz Suter... Mandala499
33 Post contains links and images RJ100 : He is already back: www.hello.ch Awaiting a fourth aircraft and flying already in the black numbers. Best regards, RJ100
34 ZRH : I also think the so called Crossair success is a little bit a fairy tale. Why would Moritz Suter have sold "his baby" to Swissair (actually he did no
35 RJ100 : Hey ZRH, you dont care about the figures I have posted above do you? I can do whatever is possible and I simply get the answer it is not so. It's real
36 Post contains links SWISSER : Hi RJ100!! It would have been an alternative option and possibly good at first looks, but, You probably would have a situation like SN brussels Airlin
37 Post contains images SWISSER : No off course not, my motto is always Crew first, but off course this is sadly not the reality...look what happened to the SN crews...Saab 2000 is a
38 Post contains images SWISSER : well let us say the options with Airbus are still pending for 3 more A343E's and i even hear some rumours around A345 for Oceania ops...   (whoops I
39 SWISSER : so wrong pall, Crossair was a jewel from the day they started! even still in 2000 many aviation enthousiast called it "the Swiss masterpiece"![Edited
40 Post contains images SWISSER : hey! if you need someone for inflight product if you proceed with something!   (look at my profile if you need references!) BTW my company is alread
41 Post contains images RJ100 : Thanks for your coments SWISSER. We dont know what would have happened with Crossair after 2001 so it is pure speculation. But at least they would hav
42 David L : Hi guys, I've joined this a little late. Going back to the open letter from the SAAB pilots, they were talking about route and job security, right? I.
43 Post contains images Matterhorn : hey thomas, although i have a different opinion on the Crossair-Swissair desaster and these swissair-crossair wars will most likely never end, could
44 RJ100 : @David L: I was reading the letter. Honestly, the pilots were not really saying that there would be a risk. The letter is very long and included many
45 David L : Sorry to interrupt the discussion of your project, which sounds interesting, but the pilots did make some mention of flight safety/security in the le
46 RJ100 : Here's the letter. I completely agree with it, funny though that SWISS does not give an answer to the points mentioned by the pilots (apart from the s
47 David L : Thanks, RJ100 - I hope you didn't translate that yourself for my benefit! So it's uncertainty about their future they're talking about. I can sympathi
48 RJ100 : You are welcome David. The problem is that the pilots are not taken seriously by the management. Basically they are advised to "shut up" until they ge
49 Matterhorn : wow, RJ100, it looks that you guys taking it really seriously. i think that our country needs more people with visions, who try to succeed with risky
50 OHLHD : I´m sorry to say that, but if I was the managment and I receive such a letter, I would suspend them as well. It is of course their right, but plain p
51 ZRH : I never understood this so called "zipper model". It is economically rubbish. Examples: when you get rid of the Saab 2000 then you dismiss Saab 2000
52 Post contains images RJ100 : @Matterhorn: We will put forward the project in the next few weeks. Next step is to contact BaselArea+, a business development organisation. Next step
53 Post contains images SWISSER : Nope, we don't do Catering is Basel "yet"   BTW for real we forgot to deliver AA171 (BRU-JFK) to deliver it's Ice creams last week... not a good adv
54 Post contains links SWISSER : the AP (aviapartner) headquarters are in the same building as where I work, so I will get in touch with someone who has some figures ASAP! The son of
55 RJ100 : Thanks for all the information. It will be a large part of cost calculation and I am very thankful for your help. Best regards, Thomas
56 Patroni : Sorry for being slightly off-topic here, but are you sure you are comparing apples with apples here? I find it hard to believe that an MD90 can be pr
57 Post contains images RJ100 : Hi Yes, you can rent HELLO's MD-90 for around 3000 Euros/hour all included. And HELLO already has a profit. I know someone at HELLO and will ask the e
58 Patroni : @ RJ100: Hmm.. I am still sceptical. How can there be a generic all-in rate when Hello's actual cost depend on local factors like handling prices, fue
59 Post contains images RJ100 : Hi Maybe because they still make enough money with the 3000 Euros (or so) that small differences in airport taxes, ground handling etc. do not matter?
60 Post contains links PipoA380 : Hi! Update on that case: The 52 of 72 pilots that had signed the letter went though several tests and over half of them are now back to service. There
61 Post contains links and images SWISSER : Haa, your IN the toilet now! http://www.swiss.com/web/IE6/ir_may05_traffic_e_final.pdf
62 Post contains images RJ100 : Hi again I'm back from Paris (great city btw). Load factors were as following: Basel-Zurich: approx 85% (Embraer-145) Zürich-Paris: approx 90% (A-320
63 Post contains images RJ100 : Sorry, they have 167 seats like Patroni correctly stated above. That makes approx. 3212 EUROS then for a flying hour. That said: HELLO's seat per kilo
64 Post contains images ZRH : I know you are sarcastic. But as I always "preached" legacy carriers don't give up the flights to their hubs (btw not only Swiss). Ok, I hope they ke
65 Post contains images Legacy135 : I don't want to put your information in doubt RJ100, but being very familiar with costs resulting from operating an aircraft I am very surprised by t
66 RJ100 : @ZRH: Most passengers were connecting in ZRH for Eastern European destinations (destinations missing from BSL), although there were also some bound fo
67 ZRH : I absolutely agree with you. The meaning of a flight to a hub is feeding the long-haul. They probably would better do that and add more short-haul ou
68 Post contains images Patroni : OK. Let's make another calculation then: Airline X charters the hello MD90 for a flight LHR-CAI. The distance is 3536km (for simplicity reasons I use
69 Glidepath73 : Wasn't there a planning to connect the both city's with a bullit subway system a few years ago? The "Transrapid" could connect this two industry and
70 Post contains links FelixZRH : Maybe you remember discussions about the Swissmetro. But this system was thought to run St. Gallen - ZRH - Zurich - (Lucerne) - Berne - Lausanne - Ge
71 Glidepath73 : How fare are the plannings for the SWISSMETRO? They talk about a pilot-track between Zurich and Basel. But they do not say when, and if it will be don
72 Post contains links FelixZRH : IIRC they lack of money. On their page I see, the pilot-track is really between Zurich and Basel. But first they want to build a test-track: And if I
73 Post contains images Gerardo : I heard from the Swissmetro already in the 80's. Forget about the Swissmetro in the next 50 years. The only possibility I see is to upgrade the existi
74 Glidepath73 : ZRH - BSL would be maybe a possible track for the Transrapid.....
75 RJ100 : Patroni: I'm sure HELLO charges you more if you fly a routing with 5 stops or so. But if you fly a route like Switzerland-Paris then it's 0.06 CHF per
76 Patroni : OK, now we have already established that the hello price quoted by you cannot be used as generic value for cost per flight hour. So let's continue: I
77 Post contains images RJ100 : Of course their costs depend on the route they serve. But it seems that their average income is higher than their average costs, otherwise they would
78 RJ100 : LX also has announced some longhaul route changes: Zurich-Tokyo: now 6x weekly instead of 5x weekly Zurich-Hong Kong: now daily Temporary flight suspe
79 Post contains images Patroni : Yes, the question still remains as I don't believe that the cost which you show us here include the same elements like the LX price. Do you KNOW exac
80 RJ100 : Well BritishJet does the same. Renting a cheap HELLO MD-90 and selling the tickets for low cost prices. I'm sure they had a reason to chose HELLO over
81 Post contains images RJ100 : Hi Patroni I have spoken to someone from HELLO yesterday. Good news for you . Your calculation LUX-INN will work. But since they don't have an aircraf
82 Patroni : @RJ100, Thanks for your confirmation of the price. I just had another idea which should be even cheaper... I'd be interested in a 45min sightseeing fl
83 RJ100 : Yes this should be no problem if they have an aircraft available. Like I have said before, they are very busy at the moment and need to subcharter som
84 Post contains images RJ100 : Sorry to bring back this topic. Just to let you know that LX is going to cut BSL-MUC (3x daily) effective end of this week. It's actually quite funny
85 RJ100 : Interesting news in today's newspaper. It states that the routes ex BSL will be taken over by Star Alliance. SWISS will give up all routes apart from
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