CATHAY747 From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 170 posts, RR: 0 Posted (8 years 5 months 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 8431 times:
Well, some speculation I saw in a thread here the other day was true!
AMERICAN AIRLINES UPDATE JULY 12, 2005
AMERICAN AIRLINES ANNOUNCES NEW NONSTOP SERVICE BETWEEN CHICAGO O'HARE AND DELHI, INDIA
American Also To Codeshare With Air Sahara
American Airlines announced today it will begin daily nonstop service between Chicago O'Hare International Airport and Delhi, India, on Nov. 15, 2005, subject to government approval. Delhi is India's capital and third-largest city. The route is nearly 7,500 miles and will be the longest nonstop route in American's growing international network. The airline will fly the route with its 236-seat Boeing 777-200 aircraft.
Serving the route is made possible by a new agreement between American and the Allied Pilots Association (APA) involving long-haul extended flying, announced earlier today. The United States and India announced in April an "Open Skies" agreement between the two nations.
"This new route is another step in our international growth strategy. Delhi is an important and vital city and India is one of the fastest-growing international markets for both passenger and cargo traffic," said Henry Joyner, American's Senior Vice President - Planning. "Also, our agreement with the APA to fly this route is another success in our Working Together process, which benefits the company, our customers and our employees."
In addition, American announced it has entered into a Memorandum of Understanding to negotiate codeshare and frequent flyer agreements with India-based Air Sahara, which operates direct flights to 23 cities in India and is one of the most successful and fastest-growing private sector airlines in that country. The cooperative agreement, subject to government approval, will allow American's customers to make easy connections throughout India. American will place its "AA" flight code on Air Sahara flights and Air Sahara will place its "S2" code on American's new service to Chicago and beyond destinations within the United States, Canada, Mexico and the Caribbean. Members of American's AAdvantage and Air Sahara's Cosmos frequent flyer programs will be able to earn and redeem frequent flyer miles on both airlines' networks.
Following is the tentative schedule for American's new service between Chicago and Delhi, pending final arrival/departure slot assignments:
CHICAGO O'HARE TO DELHI
FLIGHT DEPARTS ARRIVES
AA 292 9:10 p.m. (local time) 11:05 p.m. (local time + 1 day)
DELHI TO CHICAGO O'HARE
FLIGHT DEPARTS ARRIVES
AA 293 1:30 a.m. (local time) 5:55 a.m. (local time)
You know, there's a word for women like you, not used in high society, outside of a kennel!
Ssides From United States of America, joined Feb 2001, 4059 posts, RR: 22 Reply 8, posted (8 years 5 months 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 8279 times:
From what I understand, most flights arrive in India at a late hour like this.
And, for a US airline like AA, most of its passengers will originate in the US. This schedule allows them time to fly to ORD for connections to DEL, and to arrive, clear customs, and get connecting flights from ORD on their return trip.
AA does plan to start service to Bombay in 2006, but it will operate via Europe.
Are these route authorizations left over from TWA?
The route authorites aren't worth anything anymore. US and India have Open Skies.
Quoting Gigneil (Reply 6):
With the new open skies treaty, a lot of carriers have dormant route authorizations they're now interested in using. I think AA might have applied for these recently, tho.
As I mentioned, with Open Skies, route authorities are no longer open. AA can fly between any US city and any Indian city non-stop or via a third country (though which countries is limited by other air treaties).
Quoting Ssides (Reply 5):
Any chance of DFW getting a nonstop to India -- and will this affect the Air India/JET decision on whether to serve DFW or IAH?
No. Not only do they not have the planes, there is no market at all for a non-stop. A one-stop, yes, and the AA's new service to Mumbai may originate in Dallas.
Incitatus From Brazil, joined Feb 2005, 3930 posts, RR: 14 Reply 11, posted (8 years 5 months 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 8066 times:
Quoting Ssides (Reply 5): Any chance of DFW getting a nonstop to India -- and will this affect the Air India/JET decision on whether to serve DFW or IAH?
For the 777-200IGW it works as follows. Out of Delhi, a flight to Chicago will have about 95000 lbs of payload available. That's enough to carry a full load of passengers and some 25000 lbs of freight. From Delhi to Dallas the available payload would be about 65000 lbs. That's enough to fill up the plane with passengers but on strong headwind days some of those passengers may be left behind. No lift for freight. That's why we will not see DEL-DFW.
Actually if they had the plane there is definately a market for a nonstop DFW-BOM on AA (not daily but 4 times/week). Texas has a very large Indian pop. Dallas and surrounding areas have a population that is actually from the BOM area. So a nonstop to BOM would do just fine. In the end DFW is AA's hub and will have major feed. I'll tell you this Dallas and Texas have more O&D to BOM than many of the flights to Asia from US hubs. If they had the choice, AA should not do the one stop over a nonstop from DFW. AA is good at hubbing in the US and getting high paying premium traffic. This works with nonstops. DFW-BRU-BOM or something, would require them to depend too much on tourists and Euro connecting pax to India.
MAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 31751 posts, RR: 73 Reply 13, posted (8 years 5 months 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 7985 times:
Quoting Shawnnyc (Reply 12):
Actually if they had the plane there is definately a market for a nonstop DFW-BOM on AA (not daily but 4 times/week). Texas has a very large Indian pop. Dallas and surrounding areas have a population that is actually from the BOM area.
Toronto has the largest Indian community in Canada, and look how well their service worked out.
There is no market for Dallas-India non-stop. Not now. Maybe in 10 years.
Shawnnyc From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 241 posts, RR: 0 Reply 14, posted (8 years 5 months 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 7940 times:
Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 13): Toronto has the largest Indian community in Canada, and look how well their service worked out.
The Indian population in the US is over three times as large as Canada plus Indian tourist and business traffic is much higher to the US than to Canada. Also Indian Americans are the most affluent ethnic group that is tracked by the census. I don't even consider Canada to be reflective of the US-India market (just as I disregard most comparisons with Pakistan, Bangladesh, etc). It is unclear why AC stopped the nonstop (could be aircraft utialization, etc). In general I think N. American carriers should first fly nonstop to BOM as the premium traffic is much higher than to DEL (N.American carriers have always relied heavily on premium pax for profitability). Right now American airlines in general tend to fly to Asia out of their hubs and not just out of the higher O&D markets. I don't see why India should be different. Nonstops to Asia from hubs work. In DFW's case, the surrounding area actually has Indian O&D to go along with a huge regional feed.
MAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 31751 posts, RR: 73 Reply 15, posted (8 years 5 months 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 7932 times:
Quoting Shawnnyc (Reply 14):
The Indian population in the US is over three times as large as Canada plus Indian tourist and business traffic is much higher to the US than to Canada.
Don't underestimate the huge cultural and business ties between Canada and India. Yes, I know that the US obviously has a larger Indian population. The US is also nearly 10x larger than Canada, but Toronto and Vancouver still have two of the world's most prominent Indian communities, much more prominent than anything in Dallas or Houston.
Quoting Shawnnyc (Reply 14): Also Indian Americans are the most affluent ethnic group that is tracked by the census.
Indian Canadians are just as wealthy.
Quoting Shawnnyc (Reply 14): It is unclear why AC stopped the nonstop (could be aircraft utialization, etc)
Clearly, if the flight was making a healthy profit, it would not have been suspended. Yes, there are other issues that probably caused this flight to end, like aircraft utilization, but AC wouldn't have ended it if it was a strong performer. The profits were most likely minimal.
Quoting Shawnnyc (Reply 14): In DFW's case, the surrounding area actually has Indian O&D to go along with a huge regional feed.
The Dallas area does have a large Indian population, but it will still be overshadowed by Chicago and New York City, at least in AA's eyes.
Jaysit From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 16, posted (8 years 5 months 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 7914 times:
Quoting Shawnnyc (Reply 12): Actually if they had the plane there is definately a market for a nonstop DFW-BOM on AA (not daily but 4 times/week). Texas has a very large Indian pop. Dallas and surrounding areas have a population that is actually from the BOM area. So a nonstop to BOM would do just fine.
But what makes you think they're all making multiple trips to India every year? Or that they'll all take AA? Virtually every major European carrier flies to Dallas. Delta and NW can also hub their pax through ATL, JFK or MSP/DTW. Business travellers may opt for AA (if they're on AA's FF plan), but the Mummy-Daddy-papu-bapu crowd will take whatever's cheap within certain boundaries of convenience of course. Most people don't mind a transit stop to clear their brains and stretch. And a DFW-FRA-BOM routing is perfectly acceptable in terms of relative comfort and convenience.
I'm just baffled why everyone thinks that the presence of ~ 25,000 persons of Indian ancestry in any American city is the basis for multiple nonstops to India. Even AA's ORD-DEL nonstop will avail of the connectivity that their ORD hub provides and not just focus on the large Indian community in the Chicago burbs. They can hub a fair amount of NY/NJ/CA traffic through their ORD hub.
AirxLiban From Lebanon, joined Oct 2003, 4503 posts, RR: 54 Reply 17, posted (8 years 5 months 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 7878 times:
What is the utilization of AA's 772 fleet like? Are routes going to be rearranged so as to allow the freeing up of the planes needed to operate ORD-DEL? How many planes are going to be needed to operate a daily service?
Shawnnyc From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 241 posts, RR: 0 Reply 19, posted (8 years 5 months 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 7823 times:
Quoting Jaysit (Reply 16): I'm just baffled why everyone thinks that the presence of ~ 25,000 persons of Indian ancestry in any American city is the basis for multiple nonstops to India.
That's just it, I think AA should fly DFW-BOM because it is their HUB not because of O&D. The region around Dallas (Texas, the South, the Southwest) has plenty of Indians. The O&D Dallas provides is a great bonus (btw Dallas has over 65,000 Indians using the updated census estimates of 2003). In 2000, Indians in Texas totalled 129,000 while Koreans totalled 45,000 and Pakistanis totalled 19,000 (use the two groups as they both have flights from Texas to their respective countries). Given that the Indian population had huge in flows of immigration after the 2000 census (second only to Mexico), I think both Dallas and Houston are prime for nonstops to India especially by CO and AA.
Quoting Jaysit (Reply 16): And a DFW-FRA-BOM routing is perfectly acceptable in terms of relative comfort and convenience.
You are right, but why should AA just bow out to NW, DL or LH? India is a high growth market. Establishing your brand sooner is helpful. NW has MSP and DTW as their hubs, both have much much smaller Indian pops then DFW. AA with LAX, ORD, JFK and DFW is much more suited for India over NW.
MAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 31751 posts, RR: 73 Reply 20, posted (8 years 5 months 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 7761 times:
Quoting Shawnnyc (Reply 19):
That's just it, I think AA should fly DFW-BOM because it is their HUB not because of O&D.
Yes, but in that case, O'Hare is a much better hub for India service.
1) It is closer to India.
2) It has more O&D.
3) Since Chicago-India is pretty much a trans-polar route, it is the ideal jumping off place, since it receives feeds from just about everywhere in the US with no need to back-track.
A non-stop flight between Dallas and India would not only likely be heavily weight-restricted, hurting very important cargo revenue, but it would also get no feed at all from five of the most important North America-India markets: Vancouver, Chicago, New York City, New Jersey, and Toronto.
Ssides From United States of America, joined Feb 2001, 4059 posts, RR: 22 Reply 21, posted (8 years 5 months 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 7719 times:
While I'm a bit biased toward DFW when it comes to market -- I think if they can support 3-4 weekly flights to ICN, they could do the same for India -- MAH4546 is correct (as usual) when it comes to aircraft restrictions. A long-haul flight like this needs to maximize revenue, and the cargo restrictions from DFW would simply be too much for AA to risk. ORD is a larger market, with better O&D, and a more direct route. When choosing between DFW and ORD, it's a no-brainer to go with ORD.
I'd love to see AA go DFW-ORD-DEL. Aren't they planning on going DFW-ORD-PVG?
Blink182 From Azerbaijan, joined Oct 1999, 5455 posts, RR: 19 Reply 23, posted (8 years 5 months 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 7577 times:
AA can't perform DFW-India due to aircraft range issues(as has been established). However, would Jet Airways' A340s or Air India's 747s have issues making it from DFW/IAH-India non-stop without much weight restriction?
If I am not mistaken, Air India's ex-UA 777s are less powerful than AA's, so in order to make India-Texas nonstop, 747s would have to be used.
Give me a break, I created this username when I was a kid...
Quoting Blink182 (Reply 23): AA can't perform DFW-India due to aircraft range issues(as has been established). However, would Jet Airways' A340s or Air India's 747s have issues making it from DFW/IAH-India non-stop without much weight restriction?
If I am not mistaken, Air India's ex-UA 777s are less powerful than AA's, so in order to make India-Texas nonstop, 747s would have to be used.
No, the A340s and 744s can't make it without, again, heavy weight restrictions that would hinder the revenue and make it unprofitable. IAH/DFW-DEL is within the outer most range limits of the 343/744, but you are really stretching it too thin.
25 Travelin man: From where is AA getting the aircraft to do this route? I do not think they are getting any new 777's this year, so which route is losing the aircraft
26 CHI787ORD: Distance becomes a problem. However, Delhi is also becoming a major world business center especially in recent years. Delhi is also one of the fastes
27 B747-437B: They stopped the nonstop flight because it was a bloodbath and with very few exceptions, had been that way since day one. AC messed up the marketing
28 Jaysit: How did they mess up the marketing right off the bat? By not marketing the route to US based traffic?
29 Cslusarc: Congradulations to AA. ORD-DEL is the only market that AA could profitably fly between the US and India NONSTOP. At 7484 mi, ORD-DEL is probably the l
30 Cha747: So then that begs the question from us aviationally challenged armchair CEO types...what is the ideal plane for DFW/IAH-India nonstop assuming the mar
31 Gigneil: ORD-HKG is fine for an AA, DL, or CO 777. A UA 777 would be hard pressed. UA does ORD-HKG with a 744. N
32 Nimish: For traffic connecting to other cities in India, it would great if S2 could start some 2 am flights DEL-BLR, DEL-AMD etc. That would make sure folks
33 Mrniji: You forgot MAA I see a BIG problem of convenience btw.. if you take AI, you can check through, as ALL AI flights depart from international terminal..
34 Nimish: You're absolutely right on that point of domesticinternational terminal movement. OTOH, at least with the 2 am domestic departures, pax don't have to
35 Texdravid: Yeah, like AF or KLM flies to DFW. DFW is too small of a market to support 777/747/A340 service to India. The airport, and all of us who live in Texa
36 Tbear815: I wonder if UA will start ORD/DEL 744 service?
37 UAORD2000: I would not be at all shocked if UA starts the service first. We'll cross our fingers.
38 AvioGuy: Delhi domestic airport handles its last scheduled arrival at around 12:30 am and then the airport closes so a late connection is not possible. Only d
39 Nimish: While this may well be the case at the moment, is there any reason to prevent later flights? BOM/BLR/HYD/MAA handle scheduled domestic flights every
40 B747-437B: The airport closes because there is no flight scheduled after that. If a flight were to be scheduled, the airport would remain open.
41 B747-437B: A few issues with this. a) Winter fog operations may be possible for CAT-III 777s, but Sahara's CRJs are not certified (and looking at the rate of th
42 Nimish: These are all valid points! Still if there's something stupid that can be done, my guess is that S2 is the best bet to execute it
43 BOAC911: This flight will finally give LH and BA a run for their money!
44 Skyguy: I doubt UA will reconsider launching the ORD-DEL daily 744 which was planned pre-9/11, if they do it will be a bloodbath. As it is CO is starting EWR-
45 Jacobin777: does that mean if I arrived on the AA ORD-DEL flight at the regular time and attempted to connect for a flight to KHI on PK the following morning, I
46 B747-437B: Not sure if you have been keeping up with the news for the last 58 years, but DEL-KHI is no longer a domestic flight.
47 Jacobin777: B747......umm..never said it was....all I was asking was that would I have to get my luggage and exit the airport, then come back the following day a
48 Jaysit: But Northwest and KLM are virtually one and the same. And with Delta and NW, you have AF covered as well. But I see your point. I'm quite surprised t
49 ChrisNH: What is the CLOSEST U.S. station to India, and why isn't AA launching the flight from there? Whether it's Boston or New York or Miami, it seems that t
50 Lucianflyboy: Never thought I'd see the day The Silver Bird would touch ground in DEL. This has been up and coming. From the view of an ex agent, we used to board l
51 B747-437B: Ok, because the quote from Avioguy specified the "domestic airport", I figured you may have overlooked that. The international terminal is open 24/7
52 Jacobin777: I hope one day, just one day they try KHI too....hey, stranger things have happened, and I have flown Pan Am to KHI back in the 1970's... thanks.....
53 Lucianflyboy: One day. Don't know how many of us on here reading this will actually see that day but one day!
54 AvioGuy: it is funny since i was under the impression that Delhi domestic airport closes after 12:30 according to the regulations and that is why 9W did not ge
55 Jacobin777: interesting regarding EK adding a 2nd JFK-DXB flight... ""With flights that depart in both the morning and the evening, Emirates will provide greater
56 Omoo: whats the predicted load factor for ORD-DEL?
57 Ssides: In the continental US, the closest major station to DEL is SEA -- 7062 miles. ORD-DEL is 7484 miles BOS-DEL is 7146 miles JFK-DEL is 7318 miles MIA-D
58 N328KF: ORD isn't in a bad location, and it's an AA hub. http://gc.kls2.com/cgi-bin/gc?PATH=O...=best&RANGE-COLOR=&MAP-STYLE=ortho[Edited 2005-07-13 19:53:33
59 ChrisNH: Yes, I can see by the Great Circle routes that ORD is only a few hundred more miles than Boston, even though Boston-ORD is an 800+ mile flight! Still,
60 CayMan: MAH4546 I wholeheartedly agree with all your points save and except for your assumption that AC must not have performed well. True, if it were one of
61 Ssides: Well, it's trans-polar, so winds aren't as significant an issue (although that is a consideration). In any event, the extra 300 miles or so will cost
62 Incitatus: Calculations I made earlier for DEL-ORD vs DEL-DFW showed the extra 700+ miles to DFW would cost 30,000 lbs in payload, based on Boeing's range/paylo