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Why No DL Service To Kona?  
User currently offlineAV8AJET From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 1348 posts, RR: 1
Posted (9 years 2 months 1 week 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 6044 times:

Just wondering why DL doesn't serve Kona Hawaii. I have taken the DL flight from SLC-OGG and that particular aircraft arrives in Maui at 2:20PM and then sits until 9:10PM! Why not use it with a round trip to Kona or somewhere else within Hawaii? Seems like poor utilization for a 767-400ER. Has DL only ever served HNL & OGG? I think at least NW serves Kona and maybe others.


"To fly or not to fly there is no question!"
41 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineRhuertas70 From Puerto Rico, joined Apr 2005, 55 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (9 years 2 months 1 week 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 6033 times:

Maybe it is because AA and UA already have several daily flights to that destination making that market perhaps saturated. Also I believe that most visitors enter the Hawaiian Islands via HNL of OGG and fly to KOA via interisland service.

Actually DL has another daily flight (541) to OGG from LAX.
They also have non-stops to HNL from LAX,SFO, SLC, ATL & CVG.


User currently offlineIkramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 21532 posts, RR: 60
Reply 2, posted (9 years 2 months 1 week 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 6023 times:

I would doubt people fly Mainland-OGG-KOA very much. If you are going to Kona, you either fly in direct, or connect from HNL, not OGG.


Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
User currently offlineAloha73g From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 2362 posts, RR: 4
Reply 3, posted (9 years 2 months 1 week 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 5997 times:

Check the timing on DL's ATL-LAX-OGG flight. It might not sit as long as you think.

Aloha!



Aloha Airlines - The Spirit Moves Us. Gone but NEVER Forgotten. Aloha, A Hui Hou!
User currently offlineBurnsie28 From United States of America, joined Aug 2004, 7546 posts, RR: 8
Reply 4, posted (9 years 2 months 1 week 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 5992 times:

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 2):
I would doubt people fly Mainland-OGG-KOA very much. If you are going to Kona, you either fly in direct, or connect from HNL, not OGG.

You know, there is traffic just between the two cities, NW doenst have a problem filling that flight.



"Some People Just Know How To Fly"- Best slogan ever, RIP NW 1926-2009
User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 32799 posts, RR: 71
Reply 5, posted (9 years 2 months 1 week 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 5923 times:

Quoting Burnsie28 (Reply 4):
You know, there is traffic just between the two cities, NW doenst have a problem filling that flight.

Northwest flies to Kona because Maui's short runway can't handle a non-stop to Seattle with their 753s, so the flight must stop in Kona first. NW carries little, if any, local traffic on OGG-KOA and does not fly KOA-OGG.



a.
User currently offlineStarrion From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 1126 posts, RR: 2
Reply 6, posted (9 years 2 months 1 week 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 5909 times:

I wish they did.

I'm flying to kona in November and have to stay overnight in HNL because I can't get to the big island till the following morning.



Knowledge Replaces Fear
User currently offlinePicarus From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 300 posts, RR: 1
Reply 7, posted (9 years 2 months 1 week 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 5824 times:

Quoting AV8AJET (Thread starter):
Has DL only ever served HNL & OGG? I think at least NW serves Kona and maybe others.

I don't remember exactly when service was terminated, pre or post merger with DL, but WA flew LAX-ITO for many years.

Picarus


User currently offlineConcordeBoy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 8, posted (9 years 2 months 1 week 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 5812 times:

I'd say the primary reason would be lack of suitable aircraft.

Sure their 764ERs could reach the island from just about any USA destination. However, DL doesn't have some of the significant cargo contracts to there that it has to places such as HNL/OGG; thus rendering the 764ERs overkill.

The only other aircraft in DL's fleet insured for Pacific ops are the 772ERs, and methinks they just might exceed the margin of overkill as well  Wink


User currently offlineDelta767300ER From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 2562 posts, RR: 12
Reply 9, posted (9 years 2 months 1 week 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 5777 times:

How can NW's 753's not land at OGG, When DL's 764's and L10's did it w/ out any problems?

-Delta767300ER


User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 32799 posts, RR: 71
Reply 10, posted (9 years 2 months 1 week 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 5757 times:

Quoting Delta767300ER (Reply 9):
How can NW's 753's not land at OGG, When DL's 764's and L10's did it w/ out any problems?

The 753 simply does not have the take-off performance to operate OGG-SEA with a full load.



a.
User currently offlineDeltaMIA From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 1672 posts, RR: 17
Reply 11, posted (9 years 2 months 1 week 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 5752 times:

Quoting ConcordeBoy (Reply 8):
The only other aircraft in DL's fleet insured for Pacific ops are the 772ERs, and methinks they just might exceed the margin of overkill as well

Actually the 763ER's are as well. They are periodically used as equipment subs on the ATL-HNL route and have even been scheduled on the route. However they are significant drop in capacity.



It's a big building with patients, but that's not important right now.
User currently offlineBluewave 707 From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 3152 posts, RR: 6
Reply 12, posted (9 years 2 months 1 week 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 5710 times:

As far as DL not serving KOA, KOA needs to add more gates. There are only a handfull, and airlines must schedule accordingly. Plus, no Jetways! Ever climb stairs to board a 747?

TZ uses their 753s for their OGG runs.

UA has a 772 flight from ORD that arrives @ OGG, then goes to KOA before returning to ORD. Talking with some folks @ UA, the 772 gets a full load of fuel, and drops off (& takes on more) pax. Plus, KOA has an 11K-foot runway.



"The best use of your life will be to so live your life, that the use of your life will outlive your life" -- D Severn
User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 32799 posts, RR: 71
Reply 13, posted (9 years 2 months 1 week 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 5692 times:

Quoting Bluewave 707 (Reply 12):
Ever climb stairs to board a 747?

I have, at Tel Aviv. Climbing stairs to board a 747 is very common throughout the world. In fact, outside of the US and Japan, it is very normal. Even in Europe, at airports like Madrid and Milan.



a.
User currently offlinePSU.DTW.SCE From United States of America, joined Jan 2002, 7591 posts, RR: 27
Reply 14, posted (9 years 2 months 1 week 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 5691 times:

NW is in KOA because of the short runway in OGG. The 7,000 ft runway would cause significant weight restrictions on the 753 if it were to fly OGG-SEA. When NW entered the route, they initially flew the DC-10-30 SEA-OGG-SEA. Even that was marginal at best, and there were times that the aircraft would have to make a stop in HNL on the way to SEA if reverse thrust was inop. Thus in order to get around the weight restrictions, plus cater to the growing leisure market on the Big Island, NW made the route go SEA-OGG-KOA-SEA. The same holds true for NW 753 ANC-OGG-HNL-ANC, the runway limitations in OGG.

United does the same with their ORD-OGG-KOA-ORD route with the 772. They stop in OGG let off & let on passengers, continue on to KOA, let on & let off passengers and refuel to return to the mainland. AA is able to get their 763's out of OGG to ORD & DFW without much of a problem.

There is almost zero local traffic on these flights between OGG-KOA. Aloha pulled out of this route and now only Island Air flies a handful of Dash-8 flights between KOA & OGG. Look at the timing of the NW flight anyways, it leaves OGG at 7:30pm.

As others have said, DL isn't in KOA due to lack of suitable aircraft and hub locations. The West Coast-KOA market is well beyond saturated. ATL-KOA is a pipe dream. SLC-KOA could work in the future, but as said, the 764 is overkill for this route. United is the dominant force in KOA, but with the exception of their Sat. DEN service, does not operate a dedicated KOA flights any farther than the West Coast. The ORD flight is split between OGG & KOA.

As for the airport, I like the open air style, but I think the airport itself has lost its charm. It was great years ago, but its now getting too crowded for the type of operation they have fit in there. When it was just the interisland flights it was fine, but now with all the nonstops to the West Coast, its quite crowded. Security lines can back up, and it can be very hot & sweaty. Midday is the worst time when Aloha, United, & AA have multiple flights headed to the West Coast. I would hate to see it enclosed, its great walking out on the ramp and getting on the airport, and having aircraft taxi in just yards from where you are sitting. However, I doubt there will be much more in the way of additional flights into KOA, it seems rather saturated as it is.


User currently offlineAS739X From United States of America, joined Apr 2003, 6151 posts, RR: 24
Reply 15, posted (9 years 2 months 1 week 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 5678 times:

DL767300ER..has nothing do with landing distance. It the take-off distance on OGG's runway that is the factor. The 757-300 requires more runway do to weight and longer rotation due to the lenght.

AV8Ajet..you really think DL can make money by flying a 764 over to Kona and back? With oil closing in on $70/barrel the fuel cost alone doesn't justify the hop. So aa r/t OGG-Kona makes no sense. And a stop in Kona on the way back to the mainland makes no sense when most the pax are getting on in Maui.

Are any of DL's 757's ETOPS?

They could ETOPS 738's if Kona warranted service from say LAX. But I wouldn't hold my breath.

ASSFO



"Some pilots avoid storm cells and some play connect the dots!"
User currently offlineFoxBravo From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 2998 posts, RR: 4
Reply 16, posted (9 years 2 months 1 week 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 5671 times:

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 13):
Climbing stairs to board a 747 is very common throughout the world. In fact, outside of the US and Japan, it is very normal.

Sorry to stray off-topic, but it's actually pretty common in Japan, too. JAL and ANA routinely park 747s at remote stands at NRT and board/deplane via stairs. As I recall they use the covered stairs, so you're only exposed to the elements for a moment between the stairs and the bus, but stairs nonetheless.

Getting back to KOA, I have always liked the open-air design, but I agree that it's more pleasant in the evening when the hot sun isn't beating down. I love that first hit of fresh Hawaiian air as you stand at the top of the airstairs after a long flight across the ocean.



Common sense is not so common. -Voltaire
User currently offlinePSU.DTW.SCE From United States of America, joined Jan 2002, 7591 posts, RR: 27
Reply 17, posted (9 years 2 months 1 week 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 5672 times:

Current mainland KOA service:

American:
KOA-LAX 757
KOA-LAX 757

United:
KOA-LAX 757
KOA-LAX 757
KOA-SFO 763
KOA-SFO 757
KOA-ORD 777 (from OGG)
KOA-DEN 757 (Sat. only)

Northwest:
KOA-SEA 753 (from OGG)

ATA:
KOA-LAX 753

Aloha:
KOA-SNA 73G
KOA-OAK 73G

Thus, DL flying from Southern California doesn't bring much to the table. Unlike at least AA & United who can offer some connecting opportunities in LAX


User currently offlineStirling From Italy, joined Jun 2004, 3943 posts, RR: 21
Reply 18, posted (9 years 2 months 1 week 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 5618 times:

Quoting Picarus (Reply 7):
don't remember exactly when service was terminated, pre or post merger with DL, but WA flew LAX-ITO for many years

For a period of time, the only two cities reachable via nonstop flights from the mainland were HNL and ITO. If carriers served an additional destination in Hawai'i, it was always Hilo.

United, Western, Continental, Northwest Orient, and PanAmerican, as for example. (PA wasn't very long)

United was first to venture beyond Honolulu, followed by American.
Mid Eighties is when things changed; Maui (Kahului) replacing Hilo as Hawai'i's second city.



Delete this User
User currently offlineN1120A From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 26501 posts, RR: 75
Reply 19, posted (9 years 2 months 1 week 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 5610 times:

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 5):
Northwest flies to Kona because Maui's short runway can't handle a non-stop to Seattle with their 753s,



Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 10):
The 753 simply does not have the take-off performance to operate OGG-SEA with a full load.

That is completely untrue. The 753 does not have the same take-off performance as the 752, but it is still excelent. TZ has flown the 753 on LAS-OGG and that is farther than OGG-SEA. OGG-SEA is only about 130nm farther than OGG-LAX, which is also daily with TZ. OGG-SEA should not be a problem for NW unless the PW2000 is even worse an engine than I thought



Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
User currently offlineJsnww81 From United States of America, joined Jan 2002, 2037 posts, RR: 15
Reply 20, posted (9 years 2 months 1 week 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 5538 times:

Stirling brings up a good point about Hilo... ITO was developed to be the "second gateway" to the islands, which explains why Hilo has an enormous seven-gate terminal and only two jetways that ever get used.

During regulated times, ITO was pretty busy and even had nonstop DC8 flights to Chicago (on United, of course). Back then the CAB mandated that everyone serve Hilo, so ITO had flights by United, Continental, Northwest, Pan Am and Western. There was even a rule called the "Maui Fence" that stipulated if you flew into Honolulu and traveled to any of the islands other than Maui (meaning Kauai, Hawaii, Molokai or Lanai) you HAD to fly back out via Hilo. Must have caused a lot of headaches for the travel agents back then!

As for Kona, it didn't really start to boom until the runway was extended to 11,000 feet back in the early 1990s. United has served Kona since (I believe) 1986, but before the runway extension I think their flights operated via HNL.

At one point there were plans to build a new T-shaped second-level gate area, with jetways, protruding onto the apron (between the two terminals they have today) but those plans got shelved. The new extension would have had the same "hut-style" architecture, but would have been enclosed and air conditioned. The ground-level ticketing and baggage claim huts would have stayed the same.


User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 32799 posts, RR: 71
Reply 21, posted (9 years 2 months 1 week 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 5531 times:

Quoting N1120A (Reply 19):

That is completely untrue. The 753 does not have the same take-off performance as the 752, but it is still excelent. TZ has flown the 753 on LAS-OGG and that is farther than OGG-SEA. OGG-SEA is only about 130nm farther than OGG-LAX, which is also daily with TZ. OGG-SEA should not be a problem for NW unless the PW2000 is even worse an engine than I thought

Well, tell that to Northwest. That's the reason they had to make the stop in Kona. It was originally going to be SEA-OGG-SEA, but the plane could not make it to Seattle non-stop without payload penalities.



a.
User currently offlinePSU.DTW.SCE From United States of America, joined Jan 2002, 7591 posts, RR: 27
Reply 22, posted (9 years 2 months 1 week 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 5494 times:

It very well could be the PW engines on the 753. When NW made the switch from DC-10 to 753 on the SEA-OGG route, they initially were having to weight restrict about 20-30 seats out of OGG, hence when they added in the circular routing through KOA.

User currently offlineUA2162 From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 495 posts, RR: 2
Reply 23, posted (9 years 2 months 1 week 6 days ago) and read 5463 times:

Quoting Bluewave 707 (Reply 12):
As far as DL not serving KOA, KOA needs to add more gates. There are only a handful, and airlines must schedule accordingly. Plus, no Jetways! Ever climb stairs to board a 747?

You hit the nail on the head! I have been saying this for years. KOA could serve more destinations and airlines if they only added gates and terminal space. TZ just added service and they share a six foot counter with NW and North America. It's getting way too crowded and it's only going to get worse, especially now that America West plans on flying sometime in 2006. Kona is growing like crazy and the airport needs to do the same.

Quoting PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 14):
However, I doubt there will be much more in the way of additional flights into KOA, it seems rather saturated as it is.

I'll have to disagree with you here. I think a ATL-KOA flight will do well, especially with all the new developments on the Kohala Coast. Kona is now a destination, not just a stop over on your Hawaiian vacation. One more reason for KOA to expand.

Quoting PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 17):
Current mainland KOA service:

American:
KOA-LAX 757
KOA-LAX 757

United:
KOA-LAX 757
KOA-LAX 757
KOA-SFO 763
KOA-SFO 757
KOA-ORD 777 (from OGG)
KOA-DEN 757 (Sat. only)

Northwest:
KOA-SEA 753 (from OGG)

ATA:
KOA-LAX 753

Aloha:
KOA-SNA 73G
KOA-OAK 73G

Don't forget Ryan International's OAK service on Sun and Mon (757), JL's daily TKO (747 or DC10) and North America's OAK route (757). AC also does seasonal service (I think service will come back this winter.)


User currently offlineConcordeBoy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 24, posted (9 years 2 months 1 week 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 5432 times:

Quoting DeltaMIA (Reply 11):
Actually the 763ER's are as well. They are periodically used as equipment subs on the ATL-HNL route and have even been scheduled on the route.

Interesting.

I remember those aircraft running the re-inauguration of the route while the 764ERs were getting the crew rest arrangement, but from what was discussed by the FlyerTalk fools, it was under a temporary allotment of insurance.


Is that not the case? So the 763ERs remain insured for Tpac ops even now?


25 Rhuertas70 : KOA-DEN in a 757? At 3329 miles it maybe the longest non-stop flight for a UA 757.
26 Rhuertas70 : The only way one may see a DL764 in KOA is if they fly from the mainland to LIH then do: LIH-OGG OGG-KOA and back to the mainland. The problem is that
27 PSU.DTW.SCE : That would be the absolute worst idea ever. No passenger is going to want to sit through 2 stop overs. The passengers going to KOA would be subjected
28 Dl757md : Guys, I just ran across this thread, been away for awhile, and I have good news for you. Delta is planning SLC-KOA. Heard it at work last week. Don't
29 Ikramerica : With the same wing and engines as the overpowered 752, the 753 becomes underpowered. OGG can get hot and humid, and with more weather concerns in SEA
30 UA2162 : I just ran across this thread, been away for awhile, and I have good news for you. Delta is planning SLC-KOA. Heard it at work last week. Don't know a
31 Rhuertas70 : Ok perhaps I'm pushing it . Take OGG out. Has anybody tried Mainland-LIH-KOA-Mainland in the past? The only advantage is that I don't think that any
32 PSU.DTW.SCE : I didn't mean zero overall, but zero on those flights operated by NW & United between OGG & KOA. Those flights are one-way and cannot be purchased as
33 Texdravid : It sure is. I just got back from Kona. I flew IAH-DEN-KOA-DEN-IAH on UA. The 757-200 is obviously ETOPS certified. The flight was good both to and fr
34 Ha763 : Yes it can. LIH has had DC-10s fly non-stop from the mainland. I believe SunTrips used to use a Ryan Intl DC-10. They then would fly LIH-HNL due to r
35 Dl757md : Just confirmed at work that Delta will commence once daily nonstop service SLC-KOA and back on Dec 1, 2005. They will utilize 767-400 equipment. Dl757
36 UA2162 : Wow! A 764 at KOA. I think the route will do well. DL will probably fill this flight with connections from ATL. I just hope KOA can handle the increa
37 N1120A : Still makes no sense given the range and the fact that it is the Eastbound, with the wind. Not at all. The 753 still has performance on par with the
38 MAH4546 : The fact that it is eastbound makes a lot of sense, even with the wind. It is because of Maui's very short runway.
39 N1120A : Again, TZ already shoots that in the foot
40 MAH4546 : No, because TZ 753s are equipped with different engines. I don't know the exact details other than the fact that when Northwest started OGG-SEA with
41 Rhuertas70 : Here a comparison of the engines that the 757-300 employs according to the Boeing website. RR: RB-211-535E4B (43500 lbs of thrust) PW: PW2037(36600 l
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