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Northwest May Lose KLM Link  
User currently offlineSquirrel83 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (9 years 1 week 5 hours ago) and read 6737 times:

Northwest may lose KLM link

http://www.marketwatch.com/news/story.asp?guid=%7B5959D5F1-6BB8-427C-9C7C-0B6C59ECA3BE%7D&siteid=google

Loss of the waiver could cost Northwest, which is considering filing for bankruptcy protection because of pension funding issues and faces a possible strike by its mechanics, as much as $1 billion a year, The Journal said.

On trans-Atlantic flights KLM and Northwest act as an entity, pooling and splitting revenue and expenses evenly, The Journal said. That allows the two to field many more flights between Northwest's three U.S. hubs and Kim's base in Amsterdam, The Journal reported.

Air France's purchase last year of KLM put the current agreement under a cloud, The Journal said. The airlines have begun working together on pricing, marketing and sales as they integrate.

Air France's main U.S. partner is Delta Air Lines Inc, (DAL: news, chart, profile) a Northwest rival, the Journal said. Air France and Delta received U.S. antitrust immunity in 2002. Northwest and KLM worry that as the Air France-KLM ties grow closer, antitrust concerns will limit the longtime partners' ability to continue setting fares and schedules, according to the report..

http://www.marketwatch.com/news/story.asp?guid=%7B5959D5F1-6BB8-427C-9C7C-0B6C59ECA3BE%7D&siteid=google

[Edited 2005-07-18 11:57:32]

18 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineHjulicher From Liechtenstein, joined Feb 2005, 869 posts, RR: 2
Reply 1, posted (9 years 1 week ago) and read 6283 times:

I doubt this because even if KLM and AF begin coordinating flights, AMS will still remain a hub with convenient and efficient connections, much more efficient than the CDG hub. Therefore, it's worthwhile for KLM to continue it's service to American cities, even one's where both KLM and AF fly. Therefore, KLM will continue to fly across the pond, and it will be still codeshared with NW. I don't think KL will pull out on NW because NW feeds too many customers onto KL flights, so it's lucrative for KL. AF and KL may be together, but never will DL and KL be codeshared, nor will NW and AF, unless NW has its way.

[Edited 2005-07-18 17:03:40]


LH 442
User currently offlineDtwclipper From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (9 years 1 week ago) and read 6262 times:

"Air France's main U.S. partner is Delta Air Lines Inc, (DAL: news, chart, profile) a Northwest rival, the Journal said. Air France and Delta received U.S. antitrust immunity in 2002. Northwest and KLM worry that as the Air France-KLM ties grow closer, antitrust concerns will limit the longtime partners' ability to continue setting fares and schedules, according to the report.."

Does this guy even understand the Skyteam alliance?


User currently offlineHEGAN From Spain, joined Feb 2005, 211 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (9 years 1 week ago) and read 6209 times:

It will be really sad to loose probably the best alliance in the world.

They even pool and split revenues, which is something now BA want to make with IB in the flights between UK and Spain.

Quoting Dtwclipper (Reply 2):
Does this guy even understand the Skyteam alliance?

This is something I really don't understand: in an alliance it is possible to have this kind of relation with all the members?
It looks quite difficult (in Star, for example, with so many and different airlines)

Agur,
Hegan



HEGAN: Euskadiko Aeronautikako eta Espazioko Clusterra
User currently offlineEddieDude From Mexico, joined Nov 2003, 7561 posts, RR: 43
Reply 4, posted (9 years 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 5840 times:

SkyTeam has a very sui generis set of rules because having 3 U.S. carriers in it raises a lot of antitrust issues. If you add the membership of three large western-European carriers (two of them now owned by the same holding company), KL-NW's close business relationship and AF-DL's antitrust immunity, then you have potentially a situation that European and U.S. competition authorities will look at very carefully.

Even outside of the north Atlantic market, SkyTeam has faced antitrust difficulties. Prior to CO's entry to SkyTeam, AM and CO entered into a codeshare agreement that is currently not in effect. There were big announcements in newspapers and magazines in Mexico of three-way cooperation between DL, CO and AM in the cross-border market, the respective domestic markets and beyond, but, if I am not mistaken, competition concerns (at least in Mexico) have delayed this cooperation. The story of why the CO-AM codeshare agreement has not become effective yet is that AM's current management is very displeased with the terms negotiated by the former CEO and his team, and while I do not doubt this for a second, I would not rule out competition concerns too.



Next flights: MEX-GRU (AM 77E), GRU-GIG (JJ A320), SDU-CGH (G3 73H), GRU-MEX (JJ A332).
User currently offlineHjulicher From Liechtenstein, joined Feb 2005, 869 posts, RR: 2
Reply 5, posted (9 years 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 5810 times:

Quoting EddieDude (Reply 4):
three large western-European carriers (two of them now owned by the same holding company)

is the third AZ or CSA? Because last time I checked, these weren't big powerful airlines.



LH 442
User currently offlineFI642 From Monaco, joined Mar 2005, 1079 posts, RR: 2
Reply 6, posted (9 years 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 5600 times:

The NWA/KLM tie up is the Granddaddy of alliances. It would be a shame to see so many years of work go down the drain.


737MAX, Cool Planes for the Worlds Coolest Airline.
User currently offlinePhollingsworth From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2004, 825 posts, RR: 5
Reply 7, posted (9 years 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 5485 times:

The three US Skyteam carriers, AF and KL have investigated trying to get a blanket anti-trust immunity for the alliance across the pond. It hasn't gone anywhere.

AF-DL have immunity for their transatlantic ops
KL-NW have it for theirs
CO-DL-NW have immunity for their domestic operations outside of a few markets.

However, as of now it is very hard to fathom much extension beyond this point. This does not, however, preclude code-sharing which can be done on a pure seat purchase basis. One of the problems with extending the immunity is that due to the current fragmentation in the bilaterals/opens skies no none Dutch carriers can serve the US from the Netherlands. The same goes for France. This makes it a huge problem. It also means that KL cannot be fully absorbed by AF until a EU wide Open skies agreement is in place.


User currently offlineDCrawley From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 371 posts, RR: 1
Reply 8, posted (9 years 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 5179 times:

Quoting Squirrel83 (Thread starter):
That allows the two to field many more flights between Northwest's three U.S. hubs and Kim's base in Amsterdam, The Journal reported.

Hmm, didn't know Kim had a base in AMS. I'll have to talk to her about that one. Interesting...

Just my 2 cents,

-D.K. Crawley



"Weather at our destination is 50 degrees with some broken clouds, but they'll try to have them fixed before we arrive."
User currently offlineAeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 20362 posts, RR: 62
Reply 9, posted (9 years 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 4997 times:

If you want to read the whole WSJ article, I saw this link on another site for non-subscribers:

http://online.wsj.com/article_email/...-IhjgYNplad4opysbHqHaa2Fm5,00.html

Among other things, it adds that AMR has already filed an objection to NW/KL's DOT request to coordinate with AF/DL on trans-Atlantic flights.



International Homo of Mystery
User currently offlineSllevin From United States of America, joined Jan 2002, 3376 posts, RR: 6
Reply 10, posted (9 years 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 4961 times:

If KL and NW lose the agreement, I suspect that it will be the beginning of a very short path to the end of AMS as a hub. Skyteam or not, without the codeshare/revenue sharing over the Atlantic, I can't see AMS being attractive enough as a hub.

Steve


User currently offlineUAalltheway From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 11, posted (9 years 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 2549 times:

I hope they do brake up/apart. PLUS, "Thank you for calling Northwest/KLM-AirFrance Airlines," sounds just stupid.

User currently offlineJohnboy From United States of America, joined Aug 1999, 2576 posts, RR: 7
Reply 12, posted (9 years 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 2495 times:

I wonder if AMR will be pushing anew for AA/BA in light of this.

Kind of a quid pro quo, if you will.


User currently offlineConcordeBoy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 13, posted (9 years 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 2400 times:

Quoting Phollingsworth (Reply 7):
CO-DL-NW have immunity for their domestic operations outside of a few markets.

No they don't, not by a longshot.

There is NO antitrust-immunity whatsoever between the three of those airlines, in any application nor market.


User currently offlineIADLHR From Italy, joined Apr 2005, 734 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (9 years 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 1986 times:

Johnboy

Keep in mind that AMS and CDG have openskies with the US. That menas that all US airlines can fly to those airports. That is not the case at LHR. Unless and until LHR is opened to all US carriers, there will not be an AA/BA Anti Triust Immunity. PERIOD!!!!!!!!

My feeling is that perhaps the US will approve the KL/NW/AF for Anit Trust Immunity. The overall aim of the US is to get openskies at LHR. PERIOD!!!!!!!!
To approve the KL/NW/AF for ATI would further tighten the noose around BA and put intense pressure on them and the UK to agree to openskies.

It is also quite possible that the US will only approve KL/NW and DL/AF. However, my gut tells me they will approve the whole thing to ultimately force open LHR.


User currently offlinePhollingsworth From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2004, 825 posts, RR: 5
Reply 15, posted (9 years 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 1946 times:

Quoting ConcordeBoy (Reply 13):

There is NO antitrust-immunity whatsoever between the three of those airlines, in any application nor market.

You are correct. They do have USDOT permission to code-share. They are not allowed to coordinate fares, route entry, etc. The USDOT does not have the legal authority to rule on Anti-trust matters withing the US.

Anyhow, I will post the DOT order to prevent further confusion

http://www.dot.gov/affairs/dot00403.htm


User currently offlineLijnden From Netherlands, joined Apr 2003, 562 posts, RR: 1
Reply 16, posted (9 years 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 1780 times:
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Let's face it, NWA and CO do not fit in the picture of AF. AF wants to go Delta all the way. What the success is of KLM/NWA, will be copied and put in place with AF/DL for CDG, this time without the nasty competition of AMS.

This is such a back-stabbing blow for NWA, that it might be the end of this great airline. Maybe NWA should not only be American but also become officially the national carrier of The Netherlands, enjoying the rights and privileges of the most liberal open skies deal? With KLM gone up in Air France soon, why not? I would invest in NWA N.V. and nothing forbids to start an airline here in NL and start flying! Also AMS airport Schiphol is very suitable being NWA's home in the EU.

So we will get:
NWAmerica with N-registrations
NWHolland with PH-registrations



Be kind to animals!
User currently offlineAvek00 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 4336 posts, RR: 19
Reply 17, posted (9 years 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 1682 times:

Quoting Phollingsworth (Reply 7):
The three US Skyteam carriers, AF and KL have investigated trying to get a blanket anti-trust immunity for the alliance across the pond.

Not true - CO has not sought to join the NWA/KLM, DL/AF, or Skyteam TATL ATI agreements.



Live life to the fullest.
User currently offlineAa757first From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 3347 posts, RR: 8
Reply 18, posted (9 years 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 1640 times:

Quoting UAalltheway (Reply 11):
PLUS, "Thank you for calling Northwest/KLM-AirFrance Airlines," sounds just stupid.

That is how most airline alliances are chosen.

Do you mind explaining why you would like them to break up?

AAndrew


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