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BA Long Haul Fleet-Reveiwing Options  
User currently offlineDAYflyer From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 3807 posts, RR: 3
Posted (9 years 2 months 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 10679 times:

BA Chairman: Reviewing Options For New Long-Haul Planes

BA is apparently considering several aircraft at the moment. Interesting to note the absence of any 747 ADV talk here, and the A-380 is mentioned as a "wait and see how it works" assesment:


Tuesday July 19, 9:09 AM EDT


LONDON -(Dow Jones)- British Airways PLC (BAB) (BAB) is reviewing its options for future purchases of long-haul aircraft, but a decision doesn't have to be made for some time, Chairman Martin Broughton said Tuesday.

"On the long-haul, we are in a position where we don't need to reinvest for two or three years," Broughton said at the company's annual general meeting.

He added that the airline is reviewing available aircraft such as the long- range version of Boeing Co. (BA)'s (BA) 777, as well as Boeing's (BA) 787 planes and the Airbus (ABI.YY) A380.

Broughton said the airline hopes to see the double-decker A380 operating before it makes a decision on whether to buy the Airbus aircraft.

The first A380 is scheduled to go into service with Singapore Airlines Ltd. ( S55.SG) in late 2006.

At the AGM, shareholders approved the appointment of Chief Executive-elect Willie Walsh to the board. Walsh is due to take over from Rod Eddington later this year.

Walsh told shareholders that his priorities for the airline over the next two years are similar to Eddington's. One of BA's key goals is to increase its current single-digit operating margin toward 10%.



One Nation Under God
64 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineBoeingBus From United States of America, joined May 2004, 1596 posts, RR: 17
Reply 1, posted (9 years 2 months 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 10600 times:

Quoting DAYflyer (Thread starter):
Interesting to note the absence of any 747 ADV talk

Maybe it's because they don't want to replace the 747s yet and when they do, they will evaluate the 773ER, 747Adv and maybe the A346.

I am sure you know the A380 is all new in every way... it doesn't replace anything that currently exists today. So if BA evaluating this aircraft it's because of a new business need for it and not a replacement.



Airbus or Boeing - it's all good to me!
User currently offlineCarduelis From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2001, 1586 posts, RR: 10
Reply 2, posted (9 years 2 months 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 10568 times:

Yes, I attended the British Airways AGM this morning.

As usual, there were the rather self-important attendees who try to embarrass the board by asking stupid questions or making nebulous statements, but generally finish up making real prats of themselves mainly talking about total irrelevances to the business of the day. I thought Martin Broughton handled the Meeting well.

Next BA AGM will be held on Tuesday 18 July 2006 at the Queen Elizabeth Conference Centre, Westminster. Why not come along as a guest.



Per Ardua ad Astra! ........ Honi Soit Qui Mal y Pense!
User currently offlineDAYflyer From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 3807 posts, RR: 3
Reply 3, posted (9 years 2 months 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 10526 times:

Quoting Carduelis (Reply 2):
Why not come along as a guest

No doubt an interesting proposition but unfortunately not an option for me personally.

What was your take on the fleet plan? It almost sounded to me that they have no intention of doing anything for a while on the Whale jet or 747 issue, but may order the 787 in two years? It was funny there was no mention of the A-350...did this come up at all???



One Nation Under God
User currently offlineRayChuang From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 8017 posts, RR: 5
Reply 4, posted (9 years 2 months 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 10476 times:

I have my doubts that BA will order the A380-800 unless Airbus offers a really good financial deal.  Smile This is because unlike other airlines BA suffers the least from LHR and LGW slot restrictions, and as such could change their landing slot allocations to accomodate higher volume of flights to certain destinations with very little notice. This is why I think BA--in order to maintain commonality with their current 747-400 fleet--may become a launch customer for the 747 Advanced model.

User currently offlineCarduelis From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2001, 1586 posts, RR: 10
Reply 5, posted (9 years 2 months 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 10428 times:

My take on the fleet plan?

The report above sums it up - no commitment for two three years, with continued standard ongoing discussions with A and B as to what they can do to meet BA's varying and ongoing requirements.

No mention of A350.

Although BA have worked wonders in recent times, BA still have a little more to go on reducing their debt before spending out more money! They are not in receipt of Chapter 11 'subsidies'!

The Shorthaul fleet is nearly new with Airbus based at LHR, and 737s based at LGW, plus the regional aircraft.

Longhaul fleet is still relatively young and with no need for replacement, or changes.

Come along next year to listen to probably the same story!



Per Ardua ad Astra! ........ Honi Soit Qui Mal y Pense!
User currently offlineDavid_itl From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2001, 7378 posts, RR: 13
Reply 6, posted (9 years 2 months 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 10072 times:
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Quoting RayChuang (Reply 4):
This is because unlike other airlines BA suffers the least from LHR and LGW slot restrictions

If so, why have they "bought" slots from various airlines over the past few years? Being based there gives them no special treatment with regards to slot allocations.

Quoting Carduelis (Reply 5):
plus the regional aircraft

Any indications as to when they are likely to acquire aircraft that don't go tech quite as often as the present fleet does or is the idea of actually enhancing regional services with a better product totally on the backburner (I have a white flag is readiness for the MAN "tactical retreat" if there isn't!) ? Or better still, have they worked out how much money Flightline and Titan have made operating tons of services for BACX out of MAN in the present years?

David


User currently offlineLee From United Kingdom, joined May 2005, 148 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (9 years 2 months 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 10055 times:

I could see the 787 slotting very nicely into BA's fleet, would open up some smaller markets. I would like to see them expand internationally at BHX and MAN.

User currently offlineGlom From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2005, 2818 posts, RR: 10
Reply 8, posted (9 years 2 months 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 9997 times:

Quoting BoeingBus (Reply 1):
Maybe it's because they don't want to replace the 747s yet and when they do, they will evaluate the 773ER, 747Adv and maybe the A346.

I would register extreme shock and surprise if they went for the A346. The 773ER is a clear winner in that battle plus they already have a large 777 so they don't even have commonality.

As to the lack of mention of the 747ADV, it has been officially offered yet so we can't infer they wouldn't care about it, but we can infer that they aren't the mystery customers, which was not unexpected given the GE problem.


User currently offlineKL808 From United States of America, joined May 1999, 1584 posts, RR: 2
Reply 9, posted (9 years 2 months 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 9984 times:

Quoting Glom (Reply 8):
I would register extreme shock and surprise if they went for the A346. The 773ER is a clear winner in that battle plus they already have a large 777 so they don't even have commonality.

Buy British is the key word here. Good price from Airbus might win them over.

Drew



AMS-LAX-MNL
User currently offlineGlom From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2005, 2818 posts, RR: 10
Reply 10, posted (9 years 2 months 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 9962 times:

Quoting KL808 (Reply 9):
Buy British is the key word here. Good price from Airbus might win them over.

It would have to be a very, very good price. The buy British attitude has never prevailed in BA before. They have always bought the aircraft that suits them most and the 773ER suits them far more than the A346.


User currently offlineFCKC From France, joined Nov 2004, 2348 posts, RR: 4
Reply 11, posted (9 years 2 months 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 9913 times:

Think they will not go A350 , as this plane is too closed of the 777-200 capacity.They can consider it , only if they decide to replace these T7s , which is not the case.787 makes more sense to open new small market , maybe out of MAN , BHX or PIK , and to replace the 767 fleet.

Think they will go 787/777-200LR/777-300ER and A380 , and no 747ADV.
I am not sure they need a plane between the 747-400 and the A380.
The only way i see BA purchasing 747ADV , is only if they decide to replace the whole 747-400 fleet with a common plane , in this case , meaning no 777-300ER. So in this case the future long haul fleet could be 787/777-200/747ADV and A380.
They absolutly need a huge wide body , not only because LHR is congested , but simply as the market is already there for this purpose.
I really think 747ADV option would be a mismanagement , not because i am European , but simply speaking about commercialy.


User currently offlineBoysteve From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2004, 939 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (9 years 2 months 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 9881 times:

I also agree that BA will not buy the A346. I would be surprised, but less so, if they ordered the A350 for the 'lesser' routes or to develop MAN for example. For such a purpose I think Boeing's 787 would prevail, based on previous BA behavior. As for the key routes out of LHR, the A380 has more than a chance, although as stated BA have no reason to rush into a decision before it is flying and the actual economics of the aircraft can be studied.
What is clear is that the 787 will make some non-profitable routes profitable again, however there will be no new runway capacity at LHR for at least 15 years. Therefore if BA flew the A380 LHR-JFK to reduce the number of daily flights, for example, it would free up slots for routes such as LHR-SAN to recommence with the 787.


User currently offlineAvek00 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 4383 posts, RR: 19
Reply 13, posted (9 years 2 months 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 9844 times:

Quoting Boysteve (Reply 12):
Therefore if BA flew the A380 LHR-JFK to reduce the number of daily flights

Why the heck would BA want to shoot itself in the foot by eliminating its strongest selling point in that market - frequent service?



Live life to the fullest.
User currently offlineGlom From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2005, 2818 posts, RR: 10
Reply 14, posted (9 years 2 months 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 9841 times:

Quoting FCKC (Reply 11):
I really think 747ADV option would be a mismanagement , not because i am European , but simply speaking about commercialy.

This is what confuses me.

788 - 250
772 - 300
773 - 350
74A - 450
388 - 550

Given that the gaps between the 788-772-773 are only 50, how in the hell is 100 all of a sudden too narrow a margin to get both the 773ER and the 747ADV?


User currently offlineCslusarc From Canada, joined May 2005, 840 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (9 years 2 months 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 9776 times:

I highly doubt that BA will place any new widebody aircraft orders with deliveries within next five years. The 747-400s, 777-200ERs and 767-300ERs will stay in BA's fleet until the end of their useful economic life. Right now there is no need for BA to replace their 747-400s. If BA were to replace their 747-400s now, BA would flood an already weak second hand market with 50-some used 747-400s, diminishing their value. It would be wise for BA to wait several years to until it becomes economically prudent to retire those 747-400s.

After 2010 I could see BA adding more aircraft, and deploying most of the incremental capacity at airports other than LHR. I'm looking for BA to expand long-haul routes form regional airports like GLA, MAN and BHX, and at LON's two other main airports: LGW and STN. I like STN because it is the next LON area airport to get an additional runway. STN also doesn't have any significant scheduled long-haul serive by a major IATA carrier. I believe their is significant growth potential at STN.

After 2010 I could see BA adding aircraft like the 747-Advanced, 777-300ER, 777-200LR, 787-9, 787-8 and 787-3.



--cslusarc from YWG
User currently offlineBoeingBus From United States of America, joined May 2004, 1596 posts, RR: 17
Reply 16, posted (9 years 2 months 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 9675 times:

Interestingly I just found a news source that mentions the 747Adv...

http://www.money.telegraph.co.uk/mon.../money/2005/07/20/ixfrontcity.html

"Mr Broughton said dividends were unlikely until the operating profit margin reaches 10pc. This is targeted for the next financial year.

He also said the board will decide within nine months how to replace its ageing long-haul fleet. Options included buying Boeing's new 787 Dreamliners or its 747 Advanced jets, or Airbus's new A380 super-jumbos."



Airbus or Boeing - it's all good to me!
User currently offlineAmy From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2005, 1150 posts, RR: 8
Reply 17, posted (9 years 2 months 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 9327 times:

Here's hoping for 747ADV or 777-300ER orders (although somehow I can't see a BA 777-300ER) and definitely some 787s! I continue to hope BA don't touch the A380. It fits into some airline's ops but I can't see it in BA.


A340-300 - slow, but awesome!
User currently offlineCarduelis From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2001, 1586 posts, RR: 10
Reply 18, posted (9 years 2 months 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 8873 times:

Quoting BoeingBus (Reply 16):
He also said the board will decide within nine months how to replace its ageing long-haul fleet.

IF this was said, it MUST have been at a separate Press interview, as it was NOT said at the AGM. The time span metioned was 2-3 years.



Per Ardua ad Astra! ........ Honi Soit Qui Mal y Pense!
User currently offlineScotron11 From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2004, 1178 posts, RR: 3
Reply 19, posted (9 years 2 months 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 8612 times:

According to FT, Broughton said that a paper would be presented to BA's board within the next 9 months. It will lay the foundation for the airlines's biggest investment decision of the coming decade.

The BA review will provide an exhaustive examination of the competitiveness of the "new generation" aircraft being developed by Boeing and Airbus.

These include the new A380 superjumbo.

All long-haul aircraft in BA's fleet are Boeings; 57 B744's, 43 777's and 21 767s. Options for BA, said Broughton, include the 787, the 747ADV and the 777LR.

Mr Broughton said "these are options on the table." He added that the A350 was "unlikely" to be a principle long-haul aircraft at BA.

On the superjumbo, Mr Broughton said, "The jury is still out. None have been delivered yet. We want to see them fly first. But they are very much on our radar screen, they are one of our options."


User currently offlineJacobin777 From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 14968 posts, RR: 59
Reply 20, posted (9 years 2 months 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 8340 times:

I see a whole slew of 773-ER's and many 787's which will fill the gap nicely...if they order The Leviathan, it wouldn't be anymore than 1/2 dozen..but thats about it.....

I see a greater chance of them getting the 747ADV than The WhaleJet....BA's strategy has always been to increase pax/plane on an incremental basis...



"Up the Irons!"
User currently offlinePanAm330 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 2679 posts, RR: 9
Reply 21, posted (9 years 2 months 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 8297 times:

Quoting Lee (Reply 7):
I could see the 787 slotting very nicely into BA's fleet, would open up some smaller markets. I would like to see them expand internationally at BHX and MAN.

While I see the 787 or A350 making it's way into the BA fleet within 8-10 years, they will, as it is currently planned, not expand from secondary UK markets, save the shorthaul stuff. BA's only long haul flight not from LHR/LGW is MAN-JFK, simply because there is [some] premium demand here. BA has stated they will centralize their long haul ops from LHR and LGW, the latter being used for leisure flights, with the former being used primarily for high-yield routes.


User currently offlineWhiteHatter From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 22, posted (9 years 2 months 21 hours ago) and read 7384 times:

Quoting KL808 (Reply 9):

Buy British is the key word here.

Rubbish.

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 20):
I see a whole slew of 773-ER's and many 787's which will fill the gap nicely...if they order The Leviathan, it wouldn't be anymore than 1/2 dozen..but thats about it.....

Dream on.

BA need three deck capacity, and the 773ER may be in the running but certainly not in any large number. A reasonable size topup order for transatlantics might be indicated but cargo is an important factor. That would favour a larger order for the A380. Six aircraft is far too little a fleet of A380 for BA's operations, and at least double that number would be needed to impact on any route. UK-OZ is one route where BA could move from the 744 to 388.

Of course a Trent powered 747X would be a whole new factor if offered at the right price. Bitish Airways buys smartly and cuts hard deals, and has done since privatisation. Considerations of where and who builds the aircraft are secondary by a long way.

The 787 is a bit of an oddball for BA's current fleet requirements. The 763 is split over two distinct segments, namely thinner longhaul and higher capacity European routes. They certainly wouldn't have a requirement for 'many'. The A321 and A320 has displaced the 757 and 767 on many European routes, and the 772 would be cascaded onto the thinner routes where possible after being replaced on some current operations. BA's markets are constantly changing so any like-for-like discussion whilst looking at their current fleet is difficult.

Willie Walsh is another important factor in BA's future. He has a certain preference for Airbus and GE products, so BA may not be as firmly wedded to Rolls Royce as they have been in recent years.


User currently offlineCornish From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2005, 8187 posts, RR: 54
Reply 23, posted (9 years 2 months 21 hours ago) and read 7340 times:

Quoting WhiteHatter (Reply 22):
The 787 is a bit of an oddball for BA's current fleet requirements. The 763 is split over two distinct segments, namely thinner longhaul and higher capacity European routes. They certainly wouldn't have a requirement for 'many'. The A321 and A320 has displaced the 757 and 767 on many European routes, and the 772 would be cascaded onto the thinner routes where possible after being replaced on some current operations. BA's markets are constantly changing so any like-for-like discussion whilst looking at their current fleet is difficult.

I agree on the 787 issue. As you rightly say - the 767 is split over two distinct segments, and BA may feel they can adequately cover the phase out of 767s with A321s for the Euro routes, and 777s for the long haul ones. While the 767s in Europe are handy for some peak hour services, they spend much of the time flying less than full the rest of the day. Likewise a 777 for a long haul route over a 767 would not be too much of a problem for BA I suspect - perhaps any route that couldn't profitably be filled on a 777 would get dropped anyway.

That way another aircraft type is dropped from the fleet (757/767) which would save some costs.

In all honesty BA is one of the few major airlines which doesn't really have a great need for a 787/A350 aircraft at present.



Just when I thought I could see light at the end of the tunnel, it was some B*****d with a torch bringing me more work
User currently offlineJoost From Netherlands, joined Apr 2005, 3169 posts, RR: 4
Reply 24, posted (9 years 2 months 20 hours ago) and read 7202 times:

Quoting Avek00 (Reply 13):
Why the heck would BA want to shoot itself in the foot by eliminating its strongest selling point in that market - frequent service?

The 380 is not the plane for LHR-JFK, as LHR-JFK can well be operated with high-frequency services that make sense. The have flights leaving LHR from 8:00 to 20:00 , so they can well spread capacity.

But on other routes, the time window is smaller and there are routes where flights are departing just behind each other.

Look at LHR-HKG:
18:25 744
21:15 744
22:20 744

This can be replaced with a double-daily 388, without really losing the frequency selling-point, as the 21:15 and 22:20 flights are so close.

Or LHR-SIN: 21:25 and 21:50 - and a codeshare at 22:05 - can be replaced easily (and will be done by QF already of course).


25 Post contains images 7LBAC111 : Don't they think it will .... ? 7LBAC111
26 AlanUK : Fascinating thread this is. This type of topic seem to pop up every month or so. I agree with FCKC and Whitehatter on this page. My pronostic: 787s re
27 YYZ4RADD : BA will buy the A380, regardless Why? Becauase all other majors to London except the US ones (far less profitable) will have it. You can't compete wit
28 BoeingBus : How can you be so sure about this? I have my reservations that its not going to be any different than any other plane, that is currently available. E
29 Ready4Pushback : But why does BA need the A380 to compete with them - it may feel that it doesn't? Are you trying to say that passenger will prefer to fly Virgin beca
30 Cornish : Exactly Gary. Its not the aircraft itself that will see BA competing with its rivals - its the standard of the product on board, regardless of aircra
31 MainMAN : Or, before this happens, they could perhaps release the MAN 767 to operate to SAN, or consider other under-served routes from LHR, like LHR - ITH for
32 Avek00 : There is no amenity that can be *economically* offered on an A380 that cannot also be economically offered on a 747ADV or even 747-400. ----------- Yo
33 BestWestern : Willie walsh sees great benefit in fleet commonality. For this reason, I don't see BA ordering the 787 or A350 - I see the 767 going to the 321 on sho
34 Post contains links FCKC : BestWestern B772/773/A380 would be the ideal long haul fleet speaking economically. I continue to think the 747ADV has no place in this strategy.In fa
35 AlanUK : Although I see your point, you are quite mistaken on this one. BA already tried to rid itself of its 767s (as fuel tankers to the Royal Army- deal fa
36 Richard28 : Avek00: "There is no amenity that can be *economically* offered on an A380 that cannot also be economically offered on a 747ADV or even 747-400." I di
37 WhiteHatter : I heard a rumour the other day (and that's all it was, a rumour...) that BA would consider operating the 763RR fleet for a few more years with the up
38 Post contains links and images Jacobin777 : right...and I'll believe you over Rod Eddington... "But Eddington told this website yesterday that the airline wants to see the A380 in service befor
39 Nickofatlanta : Probably not the best example as BA will likely want to keep both of these SIN flights since one continues to SYD whilst the other continues to MEL.
40 QFA001 : Perhaps not as a direct replacement, but what about opportunities for new direct long-haul destinations that the new breed of mid-size twins could of
41 Avek00 : The A380 also carries far more dead weight than the 747, which will cause the accountants to nix most grandiose A380 cabin config. plans in short ord
42 Post contains images Squirrel83 : "The jury is still out," British Airways Chairman Martin Broughton told the Financial Times of the A380. "None has been delivered yet. We don't have t
43 Dutchjet : Firstly, I do not think we will hear anything definite from BA for a year or so, while of course BA is looking at its alternatives and window shopping
44 Richard28 : Avek00: "The A380 also carries far more dead weight than the 747, which will cause the accountants to nix most grandiose A380 cabin config. plans in s
45 Post contains links and images Keesje : Looking at BA future requirements (market will triple in twenty years & 744 replaced) I expect them to commit to the A380 within a year (not a few..),
46 Post contains images HighFlyer9790 : Hmmm...I don't think Boeing will be happy if BA takes the A380..so look for good deals on the 777LR, 787, and 747Adv...
47 Ha763 : The pax A380-800 would be a poor choice if BA needed more space for cargo. The A380-800 has a total volume of 5682 cu. ft. for ULDs, while the 747-400
48 DAYflyer : It all hinges on priorities. What are the needs of BA for the long term? What are the growth strategies? You may see a mix of the two types in service
49 Scbriml : First, it has nothing to do with Boeing if BA order the A380. Secondly, if they don't have a competing product, they can't be bothered about losing s
50 GDB : As stated, no orders for quite some time yet. Forget a launch order for B747ADV, BA don't do launch orders anymore. Will London getting 2012 Olympics
51 Post contains images Jacobin777 : the 747 really wouldn't be a "launch" plane per-se as the basic 747 has been flying for 40 years..in fact, I would say that the A380 as a new size ai
52 GDB : BA will regard 747ADV as a 'new' type for sure. But it's a moot point, if BA were to order it, it won't be for a couple of years yet, if 747ADV hasn't
53 Post contains images ConcordeBoy : ...count 'em again, there's three
54 WhiteHatter : then you obviously don't know about the trouble BA had with the 744. Everyone from engineers to lawyers to board members had to go into battle with t
55 Jacobin777 : the history of the 744 with BA is known...and my argument was essentially how to operate the pax/plane equation...where adding 30 extra seats would b
56 Cartoonranger : Does anybody believe that the government may pressurise them into selecting something European? I would find it suprising if any order of a large magn
57 GDB : I think people often read all sorts of frankly irrelevant considerations into BA's fleet choices, there is no record in BA's 30+ history of such gover
58 Kaitak : My guess is that Boeing will get the vast majority of the order; unless Airbus can persuade BA to take A380s, Airbus is out of the picture. I just don
59 DAYflyer : I think there is a pretty valid argument for BA to have the A-380 for a variety of routes; but an order for the 787 is likely first given what I have
60 Post contains images Wrighbrothers : GDB From United Kingdom, Reply 57, posted Tue Aug 2 2005 19:03:25 UTC+2 " would not place too much on Walsh's alleged preferences at Aer Lingus either
61 KL808 : I totally agree with you on this one. I too feel that this should be the number one priority. After this has been solved the Long Haul aircrafts shou
62 Post contains images Wrighbrothers : Quoting GDB (Reply 52): I personally would like to see the remaining 737's at LGW replaced, in doing so we could also retire the original CFM powered,
63 GDB : Of course, any new aircraft buy is within the context of when BA are financially ready. However, those 737's are aging, fast. I think the very younges
64 Post contains images Wrighbrothers : Reply 63, posted Tue Aug 2 2005 21:28:56 UTC+2 and read 30 times: "Of course, any new aircraft buy is within the context of when BA are financially re
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