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Will The 787s Make The 777s Redundant?  
User currently offlineAvalon From Australia, joined May 2005, 87 posts, RR: 1
Posted (9 years 1 week 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 4239 times:

Will the 787s take the place of the 777s?

Surely, the new technologies used in the 787 would make it a superior plane to the 777....or is this not so?

If the 787 models have not yet taken the place of the 777s, would it be a simple step for future derivations of the 787s to knock out the 777s?

25 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineFriendlySkies From United States of America, joined Aug 2004, 4105 posts, RR: 5
Reply 1, posted (9 years 1 week 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 4232 times:

No.

The 777-200LR and -300ER still have superior range and much larger capacity than the largest 787 model. Many people (on these boards anyway) feel that Boeing will eventually make a 787-10 to replace the 777-200ER, but any replacement to the -200LR and/or -300ER will need to be a new aircraft.


User currently offlineJacobin777 From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 14968 posts, RR: 60
Reply 2, posted (9 years 1 week 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 4169 times:

I think the knowledge and the technologies from the 787 line will be added to the 777 line making it even more economically viable for air carriers....

if Boeing can't make the 777-200LR do the LHR-SYD-LHR run right now, I wouldn't be surprised they eventually incorporate some 787 technology and do it.....might be a few years away, but it seems as if it is more of a question of "when" rather than "if"....

 twocents 



"Up the Irons!"
User currently offlineBrons2 From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 3007 posts, RR: 4
Reply 3, posted (9 years 1 week 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 4158 times:

I think the -200 length, yes all versions, will eventually be replaced by 787-10.

However, the 777-300's wider fuselage is better for the higher passenger loads carried. The 773ER is the ultimate in 777 economics and will sell for quite some time IMHO.



Firings, if well done, are good for employee morale.
User currently offlineDeltaWings From Switzerland, joined Aug 2004, 1294 posts, RR: 17
Reply 4, posted (9 years 1 week 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 3889 times:

You cant replace the 773 with a streched 787.Since the 787 has one aisle across less then the 777, it is always going to be a little smaller, so to make up for that, you would have to strecht it more. So a 773 replacement from the 787 would have to be full 80 metres long- which wont happen


Homer: Marge, it takes two to lie. One to lie and one to listen.
User currently offlineStarlionblue From Greenland, joined Feb 2004, 16999 posts, RR: 67
Reply 5, posted (9 years 1 week 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 3875 times:

Quoting DeltaWings (Reply 5):
Since the 787 has one aisle across less then the 777, it is always going to be a little smaller, so to make up for that, you would have to strecht it more.

I think you mean one seat column?



"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots."
User currently offlineFriendlySkies From United States of America, joined Aug 2004, 4105 posts, RR: 5
Reply 6, posted (9 years 1 week 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 3831 times:

Quoting Brons2:
However, the 777-300's wider fuselage is better for the higher passenger loads carried.

Erm, the 777-300 has the exact same fuselage width as a 777-200.


User currently offlineTomFoolery From Austria, joined Jan 2004, 528 posts, RR: 2
Reply 7, posted (9 years 1 week 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 3793 times:

so the 787 will fit somewhere between the 767 and 777, which the 777 will fit between the 787 and the 747. with the gaping void left between the 767 and the 737 (yes, I realize we are talking twin asle and single asle at this point...), I'm just trying to figure out where boeing's next step is.
Will the 787 have any commonality to the 777 of the 764? there is not a whole lot of commonality between the 744 and the 777/764, but I understand that the 747 ADV will attempt to overcome this to some degree (if i'm wrong please correct me)
It seems to me that commonality will become a big selling point, from flight deck to cabin maintenance.
Comming back to the point, which a/c will be the odd model out, and be subsequently retired?
any thoughts?
tom



Paper makes an airplane fly
User currently offlineFriendlySkies From United States of America, joined Aug 2004, 4105 posts, RR: 5
Reply 8, posted (9 years 1 week 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 3720 times:

The 787 and 777 will not share a type rating, but I believe a pilot can switch over within 6(?) days. The 747Adv will be getting a new 787-style flight deck, so it should offer a high level of commonality as well. I don't think Boeing is too concerned about commonality with the 767s, as most airlines ordering the 787 would be replacing that type.

User currently offlineAKelley728 From United States of America, joined Dec 1999, 2189 posts, RR: 5
Reply 9, posted (9 years 1 week 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 3619 times:

Quoting Brons2 (Reply 3):
think the -200 length, yes all versions, will eventually be replaced by 787-10.

However, the 777-300's wider fuselage is better for the higher passenger loads carried. The 773ER is the ultimate in 777 economics and will sell for quite some time IMHO.



Quoting FriendlySkies (Reply 7):
Erm, the 777-300 has the exact same fuselage width as a 777-200.

Uhh, he was comparing the 777-300 to the 787


User currently offlineZvezda From Lithuania, joined Aug 2004, 10511 posts, RR: 64
Reply 10, posted (9 years 1 week 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 3623 times:

Quoting FriendlySkies (Reply 1):


The 777-200LR and -300ER still have superior range and much larger capacity than the largest 787 model. Many people (on these boards anyway) feel that Boeing will eventually make a 787-10 to replace the 777-200ER, but any replacement to the -200LR and/or -300ER will need to be a new aircraft.

A stretched B787-9 could replace the B777-200LR, but only with a new wing. Using the wing from the B787-9, a B787-10 would only replace the B777-200ER.

The longest practical stretch of the B787 would make it the length of the A340-600 (about 75 meters), which would give it a floor area greater than the A340-600 but smaller than the B777-300. Such a B787-11 would need a new wing. That new wing applied to a B787-10 (about 69 meters) would give it better than B777-200LR performance.

Most likely, a B787-10 will replace the B777-200ER and, eventually, an all new model will replace both the B777-300ER and the B747Adv.


User currently offlineAJRfromSYR From United States of America, joined May 2005, 454 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (9 years 1 week 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 3470 times:

Quoting TomFoolery (Reply 8):
so the 787 will fit somewhere between the 767 and 777, which the 777 will fit between the 787 and the 747. with the gaping void left between the 767 and the 737 (yes, I realize we are talking twin asle and single asle at this point...), I'm just trying to figure out where boeing's next step is.

The 787 will cover the 753-767 family. Maybe the 777-200 also
The 737 Replacement will cover the 737 family -752

No gaping void.



-AJR-
User currently offlineDAYflyer From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 3807 posts, RR: 3
Reply 12, posted (9 years 1 week 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 3384 times:

They are completely different aircraft with different capacity and range, so the answer is no. If they take the 787 technology and build it into the 777 that would be cool-this will eventually be done but when is anyone's guesstimate.


One Nation Under God
User currently offlineConcordeBoy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 13, posted (9 years 1 week 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 3335 times:

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 11):
A stretched B787-9 could replace the B777-200LR, but only with a new wing.

....and new gear, and new engines, and a significant increase in fuel storage, and a huge boost in payload capability, and...


User currently offlineBlueSky1976 From Poland, joined Jul 2004, 1870 posts, RR: 4
Reply 14, posted (9 years 1 week 20 hours ago) and read 3131 times:

I hope Boeing keeps 777 fuselage in its current form, gives it an all-new wing and makes it fully-composite airframe. The weight savings along with bleedless engines would make it a very nice update to already proven design. Other than the little "heavy" weight in 777-200ER, the plane is perfect...


STOP TERRORRUSSIA!!!
User currently offlineDfwRevolution From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 962 posts, RR: 51
Reply 15, posted (9 years 1 week 20 hours ago) and read 3110 times:

>> The weight savings along with bleedless engines would make it a very nice update to already proven design. Other than the little "heavy" weight in 777-200ER, the plane is perfect...

The issue becomes two-fold: cost/benefit ratio and market coverage.

#1. Heavily reworking the 777 with 787-technology would yield a highly competitive product, but at what cost? While not an exact parallel with the A350, Airbus has shown reworking an airplane isn't cheap at all.

If we consider the growth of other Boeing widebodies like the 767 and 777, there is (likely) a good deal of growth potential within the 787 platform. Moreover, the 787 fuselage is only an arms-width narrower than the 777. At that point, it's likely more cost efficent to stretch a year-2008 platform than it is to modernize a year-1995 platform.

Observe the success of the 773ER: invest about $1 billion dollars to beef-up MTOW, rework landing gear, add fuel volume, aerodynamic tweak here, etc, etc. Do the same to the 787-9 with a stretch, and I'd wager my Toyota that it would be more cost effective than modernizing the 777.

#2. Running short on time, but Boeing has to be considering that the Adv is getting close to the end of the 747 legacy. Pure speculation, but allowing the 787 to replace the 772ER would allow Boeing to presue an all-new widebody family (possibly wider than the 747) to replace both the 773ER and 747. While not going head-to-head with the A388, such a product could be tremendously efficent.


User currently offlineZvezda From Lithuania, joined Aug 2004, 10511 posts, RR: 64
Reply 16, posted (9 years 1 week 18 hours ago) and read 3034 times:

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 10):
A stretched B787-9 could replace the B777-200LR, but only with a new wing.



Quoting ConcordeBoy (Reply 13):
....and new gear, and new engines, and a significant increase in fuel storage, and a huge boost in payload capability, and...

The GEnx engines have nearly the same thrust as the earliest GE-90s. I don't doubt that the GEnx could be further developed to provide sufficient thrust. Additional fuel storage is -- along with increased lift -- one of the reasons why a new wing would be needed. Payload capability is easy given a new wing with sufficient lift and the strength versatility of a composite fuselage. Would strengthening the landing gear suffice? What is the maximum permissible ramp weight for a 10 wheeled aircraft?

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 15):
Boeing has to be considering that the Adv is getting close to the end of the 747 legacy. Pure speculation, but allowing the 787 to replace the 772ER would allow Boeing to presue an all-new widebody family (possibly wider than the 747) to replace both the 773ER and 747. While not going head-to-head with the A388, such a product could be tremendously efficent.

Exactly.


User currently offlineConcordeBoy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 17, posted (9 years 1 week 15 hours ago) and read 2741 times:

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 16):

The GEnx engines have nearly the same thrust as the earliest GE-90s.

...which couldnt power the 772LR worth a damn

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 16):
Additional fuel storage is -- along with increased lift -- one of the reasons why a new wing would be needed.

wouldnt be enough, just as it currently isnt for the larger/wider 77C

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 16):
Would strengthening the landing gear suffice?

no, you'd need to lengthen them as well, plus redesign the gear bay while you're at it

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 16):
What is the maximum permissible ramp weight for a 10 wheeled aircraft?

not enough to support an aircraft of 777 stature, without punching holes in runways anyways  Silly


User currently offlineZvezda From Lithuania, joined Aug 2004, 10511 posts, RR: 64
Reply 18, posted (9 years 1 week 14 hours ago) and read 2709 times:

ConcordeBoy, you do realize that a B787 with the payload and range of a B777-200LR would weigh much, much less than a B777-200LR, right?

User currently offlineConcordeBoy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 19, posted (9 years 1 week 14 hours ago) and read 2694 times:

yup... and?

User currently offlineZvezda From Lithuania, joined Aug 2004, 10511 posts, RR: 64
Reply 20, posted (9 years 1 week 6 hours ago) and read 2564 times:

Quoting ConcordeBoy (Reply 19):
yup... and?

So, what do you estimate would be the OEW of a 69 meter long B787-10 with a larger wing providing enough lift and fuel capacity to match the payload and range performance of the B777-200LR?


User currently offlineKtachiya From Japan, joined Sep 2004, 1792 posts, RR: 2
Reply 21, posted (9 years 1 week 6 hours ago) and read 2561 times:

Quoting Avalon (Thread starter):
Will the 787s take the place of the 777s?

Well ask yourself. Why did AC try to order the 787 and the 777 at the same time? NH and JL will also be operators of both the 777 and 787.

I've read in some areas that NH sees the opportunity to use their 787 on the inter-Asian routes from HND in the future and both on domestic flights.



Flown on: DC-10-30, B747-200B, B747-300, B747-300SR, B747-400, B747-400D, B767-300, B777-200, B777-200ER, B777-300
User currently offlineIberiadc852 From Spain, joined May 2005, 270 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (9 years 1 week 1 hour ago) and read 2416 times:

Quoting DeltaWings (Reply 4):
Since the 787 has one "aisle" (meaning column) across less then the 777,



Quoting Brons2 (Reply 3):
However, the 777-300's wider fuselage is better for the higher passenger loads carried.

From what I have read, the cabin width:

- Of all 777's versions is about 5.80 mts. (19 ft 0.34")
- Of all 787's is 5.74 mts. (18 ft 10")

But, am I the only one who believes that?

By the way, the information I have found is that 789's length is 62.0 mts. (203 ft 4.92 ") while 772's is 63.70 mts. (209 ft) so I think the cabin lenght of both models (and the passengers capacity) should be very similar



variety is the spice of life; that's what made the "old times" so good
User currently offlineConcordeBoy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 23, posted (9 years 1 week 1 hour ago) and read 2394 times:

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 20):
So, what do you estimate would be the OEW of a 69 meter long B787-10 with a larger wing providing enough lift and fuel capacity to match the payload and range performance of the B777-200LR?

can estimate, but would need to sit down and run some numbers.

...either that, or just ask Widebodyphotog  Silly


User currently offlineDfwRevolution From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 962 posts, RR: 51
Reply 24, posted (9 years 1 week 1 hour ago) and read 2370 times:

>> But, am I the only one who believes that?

You're comparing the 777's internal diameter to the 787's external diameter. To my knowledge, Boeing has not precisely specified the 787's internal diameter.

In any event, the difference is small: the 787 diameter is perfectly capable of replacing the 772 and even (to a lesser extent) the 773.


User currently offlineIberiadc852 From Spain, joined May 2005, 270 posts, RR: 0
Reply 25, posted (9 years 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 2282 times:

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 24):
You're comparing the 777's internal diameter to the 787's external diameter

Ok. It seems that I was wrong. I just found in Boeing's website that 787's cabin width was 5.74 mts. and I assumed it was the interior one, because, otherwise, following that rule, what would be the "cabin length"?. The fuselage length?. It doesn't sound very logical to me.

Anyway, I have also read that A330-A350 external width is 5.64 mts. and the internal one 5.23 mts. So if 787's external width is 5.74 mts., what's the point of saying that one (and important) advantage of 787 is being capable to have a 8 or 9 abreast while the A350 would be almost restricted to only 8 abreast?

Anyone can show light on this?



variety is the spice of life; that's what made the "old times" so good
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