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A350s For Finnair?  
User currently offlineFCKC From France, joined Nov 2004, 2348 posts, RR: 4
Posted (9 years 4 months 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 7285 times:

I was told by a reliable source (As usual in this case can't reveal the name) , AY was one out of many airlines to have pushed Airbus to launch the A350 to replace their MD11 fleet.In the meantime they would lease two A340-300s , to enter the widebody Airbus world.It seems they have no intention to go with Boeing.No 787 or 777 here.
Can somebody , especially Finnish people confirm that ?

49 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineColumba From Germany, joined Dec 2004, 7088 posts, RR: 4
Reply 1, posted (9 years 4 months 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 7140 times:

Would be great another A350 customer, hope that is more behind that rumor !!


It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
User currently offlineBackfire From Germany, joined Oct 2006, 0 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (9 years 4 months 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 7100 times:

Quoting FCKC (Thread starter):
I was told by a reliable source (As usual in this case can't reveal the name)

The same "reliable source" who mentioned the additional huge order for A380s by Emirates? Where's that gone? Is anyone keeping count of how many of this source's stories are coming true? Just wondering.


User currently offlineLeskova From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 6075 posts, RR: 70
Reply 3, posted (9 years 4 months 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 7067 times:

Would be nice to see that order - I've been hearing rumors of Finnair ordering Airbus longhaul planes since around 1999 now (coming from AY's sales people here in Germany - and, yes, I know that people in sales aren't usually kept up to date too much on what the fleet plans actually are), with A330s and A340s being mentioned...

But seeing that I've been hearing these rumors now for about 6 years, I'll just keep my fingers crossed that they're true - but won't believe them till I actually see an order.

Regards,
Frank



Smile - it confuses people!
User currently offlineFCKC From France, joined Nov 2004, 2348 posts, RR: 4
Reply 4, posted (9 years 4 months 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 7051 times:

Backfire

No it's not the same source.
Wait for the Dubai Air Show in November to see what will happen.
Count yourself how many rumors posted here on Airliners.net have turned to reality , and tell me.Would be interesting to know.

Columba

That's why i asked people , especially Finnish if they heard or read something about this , to be sure it's true.


User currently offlinePM From Germany, joined Feb 2005, 6957 posts, RR: 63
Reply 5, posted (9 years 4 months 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 7036 times:

Finnair currently operate six MD-11s in a two-class configuration seating a total of just under 300. A319s, A320, and A321s are the bulk of their narrowbody fleet. Their only Boeings are seven 757-200s (which I thought were orginally bought for leisure flights?). I have absolutely no inside information and have never even flown on AY but, on paper, an order for A350s to replace their MD-11s doesn't seem improbable. At the very least, they must be the kind of customer Airbus are going after.

User currently offlinePersotvik From Norway, joined Nov 1999, 274 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (9 years 4 months 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 6952 times:

I believe you "make a story" here just to start a thread.
AY will aquire another MD11 and the fleet will be 7 in total.
As AY say, the best way to replace an MD11 is with an another MD11.

But in the future they need to replace their MD11 fleet and it seems like Airbus will be a solution. But I simply DON'T believe that they will aquire the 343 as an interim solution.

Per
TRD



Just love flying
User currently offlinePM From Germany, joined Feb 2005, 6957 posts, RR: 63
Reply 7, posted (9 years 4 months 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 6911 times:

Perstovik

AY certainly like their MD-11s but an A350 order isn't incompatible with them taking another (used) plane. If anything, it adds to the urgency. Finnair are developing their long-haul network quite nicely but they can't go on indefinitely relying on collecting second-hand items of a model that hasn't been produced for several years. Even an A350 order tomorrow won't see them take delivery until the end of the decade. Will their MD-11s still be so ideal then? Their first MD-11 was delivered in 1990 and four of the current six are already more than ten years old. By 2010 they'll need something newer, more economical and more reliable. That's likely to be the A350 or the 777 or the 787 and if they want delivery slots they'd better order soon.


User currently offlinePersotvik From Norway, joined Nov 1999, 274 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (9 years 4 months 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 6882 times:

As i said, they need to replace their ageing MD11 fleet sooner or later. And A350 can be the solution, I have not ruled out that. But A340-300 as an interim solution seems very strange. And second hand A340-300 are not that easy to find either.

By 2010 their oldest MD11 will be 20 years old. For an perfectly maintained aircraft that is not bad. And their MD11's are very reliable. Look at NW and their DC10's...



Just love flying
User currently offlinePM From Germany, joined Feb 2005, 6957 posts, RR: 63
Reply 9, posted (9 years 4 months 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 6833 times:

Perstovik

As I understand it, NW would love to have moved out of the DC-10 era years ago but simply couldn't afford to. But, you're right. A 20-year old MD-11 still has plenty of life left in it and if AY choose to operate them way beyond 2010 I'm sure they can. (Their youngest will still only be 12 by then.) And I agree that an A340-300 or two seems curious. If AY can still find used MD-11s, why complicate things? Then again, with a big CFM-powered narrowbody fleet the introduction of a few A343s wouldn't be a big step. Might commonality with other Oneworld members be a factor? Probably not. Anyway, I'm glad that someone's still flying the MD-11. I was no fan when it came out but a decade of memorable flights on Swissair won me over. I almost miss it!


User currently offlineWINGS From Portugal, joined May 2005, 2831 posts, RR: 68
Reply 10, posted (9 years 4 months 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 6709 times:

Quoting Persotvik (Reply 6):
As AY say, the best way to replace an MD11 is with an another MD11.

I was under the impression that passenger version of the MD11, have become quite hard to find, seen that most have become been modified for Cargo operations.

Does anyone have any figures as to how many MD11 passenger and cargo versions were built and how many continue in active service?

Regards,
Wings



Aviation Is A Passion.
User currently offlinePersotvik From Norway, joined Nov 1999, 274 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (9 years 4 months 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 6633 times:

200 MD11's were built in total.
I don't know how many which are still in service but I believe most of them are.

Two airframes lost in crashes, one from Swissair and the other one from Mandarin Airlines.



Just love flying
User currently offlineFCKC From France, joined Nov 2004, 2348 posts, RR: 4
Reply 12, posted (9 years 4 months 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 6618 times:

Persotvik





Be more honnest and say i am a lawyer


AY will not keep these MD11s indefinitly , and that they are looking at A350 makes a great sense.


User currently offlinePersotvik From Norway, joined Nov 1999, 274 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (9 years 4 months 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 6528 times:

Quoting FCKC (Reply 12):

Be more honnest and say i am a lawyer


AY will not keep these MD11s indefinitly , and that they are looking at A350 makes a great sense.

I never said that they will, look at my posts. But the A340 does not make sense!



Just love flying
User currently offlineAvek00 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 4410 posts, RR: 19
Reply 14, posted (9 years 4 months 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 6470 times:

Quoting PM (Reply 7):
Finnair are developing their long-haul network quite nicely but they can't go on indefinitely relying on collecting second-hand items of a model that hasn't been produced for several years.

Given that some of the MD-11s built are YOUNGER than early-build 777s/A340s, age in and of itself is not a major issue.



Live life to the fullest.
User currently offlinePM From Germany, joined Feb 2005, 6957 posts, RR: 63
Reply 15, posted (9 years 4 months 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 6377 times:

Avek00

Fair enough but the 777 and A340 are still in production. Psychologically, if nothing else, the MD-11 is an 'old' plane. Moreover, early 777s and A340s are themselves ready for replacement in some cases. The oldest Air Canada A340-300 is barely 10 years old but aren't they looking to dump the whole fleet? Age is merely one factor in fleet planning. If the MD-11 is the best equipment for AY's route network they should - and no doubt will - keep them for many years to come. But the readiness of most other airlines to get out of MD-11 passenger operations (who else is left? KLM?) suggests that it has trouble competing with more modern equipment. I'd find it surprising if AY had no plans to replace it within the next decade. Not to do so would be to stick their head in the sand.


User currently offlineFinnWings From Finland, joined Oct 2003, 640 posts, RR: 2
Reply 16, posted (9 years 4 months 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 6355 times:

Finnair will phase out all their MD-11s most likely before the end of this decade and they have already started to evaluate different aircraft options which will replace those good old tri-holers. Please remember, that most if not all MD-11s of AY are leased and most likely they will be phased out when the leasing agreement expires. The first contract should expire around 2008 as far as I know.

All I can say is that A340 is definitely NOT even a short term solution and there is good reason behind that. Most of the airways which AY use on their Asia flights have minimum Mach limit which A343 will not reach on normal cruise speed. These routes are the shortest way to Asia and therefore switching to slower aircraft type would have huge economical impact as they wouldn't be able to use those airways. A343 is lacking of cargo capacity too which Finnair so much needs.

What comes to B777 it is out of the game as well... Finnair does not like to buy "old" designs and they have proved it many times in the history. Even B777 is an excellent aircraft and very economical, please remember that the basic design relates to early 90s and many of its design solutions are nowadays rather conservative if compared to B787 for example. AY has been a launch customer or one the very first operators of numerous aircrafts (ATR72, MD-87, MD-11, Convair, DC-10ER, etc...) so they are definitely looking something brand new and innovative, which in this case are B787 or A350. I wouldn't count A340-500 or -600 out of the game either.

My best guess is that AY will choose Airbus product as they have been VERY pleased for narrowbody Airbuses. However, Boeing is strong too, so I would guess chances are 60% for Airbus the get the deal.

One thing is however definitely sure... AY will need a LOT new longhaul aircrafts as their Asian strategy is extremely successful and they have announced that in 10 years they will have three times more frequencies to Asia than nowadays. It would make Helsinki one of the biggest hubs in traffic between Asia and Europe. They would expand even faster if they had enough capacity but there are very limited number of GE powered MD-11s available as most of the manufactured MD-11s have PW engines.

Lets see what will happen...we can only wait. However I would expect to see order before the next spring so we don't have to wait too long.

Best Regards,
FinnWings

[Edited 2005-07-23 16:35:39]

User currently offlinePM From Germany, joined Feb 2005, 6957 posts, RR: 63
Reply 17, posted (9 years 4 months 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 6320 times:

"Most MD-11s have PW"? I'm not sure that's true. AA had GE and KLM still do. Saudi Arabian, Alitalia, Thai... There are (or were) lots of GE customers.

User currently offlineAvek00 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 4410 posts, RR: 19
Reply 18, posted (9 years 4 months 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 6257 times:

Quoting FinnWings (Reply 16):
Finnair does not like to buy "old" designs and they have proved it many times in the history.

If that is the guiding rationale in its future fleet decisions, the management team ought to be fired post haste.



Live life to the fullest.
User currently offlineFinnWings From Finland, joined Oct 2003, 640 posts, RR: 2
Reply 19, posted (9 years 4 months 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 6144 times:

Quote:
If that is the guiding rationale in its future fleet decisions, the management team ought to be fired post haste.

Of course that is not their main principle when choosing new aircrafts but buying today something which is already quite old design will definitely be an obsolete design in 2020. Newer models just always seems to have lower operating costs and being more economical than older versions. What is the point of making new models or derivatives otherwise? Please don't get me wrong, B777 is excellent aircraft now and I'm not trying to bash it, but come on, who really believes that it is competitive design still in ten years when light fully composite aircrafts and new more economical engines are soon making a break through? Fleet decisions are long term solutions and you need to keep eye on the future.

The fleet decisions of Finnair have been extremely successful in the past and I have no doubt that so will be in the future as well. They will choose the best aircraft for their individual needs no matter is it Boeing or Airbus.

Best Regards,
FinnWings

[Edited 2005-07-23 17:20:08]

User currently offlineAvek00 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 4410 posts, RR: 19
Reply 20, posted (9 years 4 months 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 6076 times:

Quoting FinnWings (Reply 19):
Of course that is not their main principle when choosing new aircrafts but buying today something which is already quite old design will definitely be an obsolete design in 2020.

The MD-11 was an obsolete aircraft within four years of EIS, and yet it is still going strong in the AY fleet. The question is not whether the aircraft's design is obsolete, but rather whether it suits the airline's needs.



Live life to the fullest.
User currently offlineFCKC From France, joined Nov 2004, 2348 posts, RR: 4
Reply 21, posted (9 years 4 months 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 5996 times:

Finnwings

Many thanks for all these informations.
Please do not forget AY was a launch customer for the caravelle1 , before they converted them as 3 , and ordered later 10Bs.
Merci Finnair to have bought this so elegant plane.We will never forget this bird.

I am sure the strategy of Finnair in the widebodies run , is the good one.
They simply have jumped one generation of widebody (777 and A340) , waiting for the next one (A350 and 787) to have the more and economical product.But this time as mentionned they can't do it again , and will be obliged to get either A350 or 787.
My though and only this , is A350 will better suit for their fleet plan , rather than 787 , simply as if Boeing doesn't go ahead with 787-900 , the European product is really the true replacement of 777-200 and MD11.


User currently offlineCrosswind From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2000, 2601 posts, RR: 58
Reply 22, posted (9 years 4 months 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 5981 times:
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Finnair are certainly interested in the 787 and are currently participating in the "Working Together" programme for the aircraft. It would seem ideal for an airline like Finnair in that it is significantly smaller than the A350/A340/B777 but has an impressive range.

This would allow Finnair to build a far more attractive hub for Europe-Asia traffic through Helsinki with the 787 than is possible with larger types. The 787 is the first aircraft in this capacity bracket to have the range/payload charachteristics to meet Finnair's requirements. The 787 would also be useful in opening up new Trans Atlantic markets currently not viable with the MD-11.

While the A350 could also meet Finnair's needs, the smaller capacity of the 787 could win the day because it would provide a means to boost frequency an open up a range of thinner routes.

Regards
CROSSWIND


User currently offlineFinnWings From Finland, joined Oct 2003, 640 posts, RR: 2
Reply 23, posted (9 years 4 months 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 5975 times:

Quoting Avek00 (Reply 20):
The MD-11 was an obsolete aircraft within four years of EIS, and yet it is still going strong in the AY fleet.

It is still going strong indeed, but actually B777-200A is only a few years newer design than MD-11s... However the difference is that there has been numerous modifications to B777 (-LR, ER, -IGW, -300, etc...) but the MD-11 is still more or less almost the same model as in early days of production. Of course newer versions of B777 are far more advanced than MD-11 but they don't still compare to future solutions which include much more composites and other economical benefits.

Quoting Avek00 (Reply 20):
The question is not whether the aircraft's design is obsolete, but rather whether it suits the airline's needs.

I fully agree with that. Older models seems to be much cheaper but they are usually more expensive to operate in long term than newer aircrafts. It is all about individuals needs like you said.

Best Regards,
FinnWings


User currently offlineColumba From Germany, joined Dec 2004, 7088 posts, RR: 4
Reply 24, posted (9 years 4 months 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 5967 times:

Would the A330-200 be an option as an interims solution if the A340-300 is too slow ?


It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
25 NumberTwelve : Backfire, as long as it's not the "reliable source" that the 380 will never fly, I can live with this "rumour".
26 PanAm330 : The same thing was said about the 737. And look where that is today- without a doubt the most successful aircraft ever put into production. The MD11
27 Kaitak : I wouldn't discount the A350 as an option, but what about delivery dates? The A350 would enter service around 2011-2012. I guess the AY aircraft could
28 FCKC : NumberTwelve Well said !!!!!!!!!
29 Persotvik : Fleet strategy is the keyword here. AY ordered the MD11 brand new and later on came the slightly more advanced A340 and the state of the art B777. But
30 Columba : Well I would say that the A340 is as same advanced as the 777 -maybe not that economical but due to new technologies such as fly by wire it is defini
31 Avek00 : Not in any way, shape, or form.
32 Post contains images Persotvik : You have plenty of oppurtunities when you live in Germany: KLM Varig Martinair Finnair Thai Airways World Air Namibia Varig flies MD11 from FRA and t
33 PM : Actually, no. Of the 200 built, 82 (41%) have PW and 118 (59%) have GE.
34 Joost : Can you explain this? Are there routes that require by certain laws a minimum speed? Or is the speeds just needed to fit the flights in a narrow time
35 FinnWings : Glad that I was able to help you, FCKC. The Caravelle was an excellent aircraft indeed, I have heard many former Caravelle pilots to praise that bird
36 Kaitak : Sapporo would be an interesting choice, as no European carrier flies there now; KLM did a few years ago (with MD11s also!), continuing to NGO. I guess
37 FinnWings : Thanks for correcting me, PM! I thought there was more PW powered MD-11s indeed... However, I think most of those GE powered examples are already frei
38 Post contains images FinnWings : Hello Kaitak, sorry I forgot to answer your question earlier. All Finnair's MD-11 are going through heavy maintenance during this year and to Busines
39 Post contains images LifelinerOne : Hmm... The A320 was around since 1987 before Finnair bought them... The B757 was also around for years before Finnair bought them... Cheers!
40 Post contains images FinnWings : LifelinerOne, Like they say, all good rules must always have exceptions to make them valid, don't they? Now I'll crawl back to my box again... Best Re
41 A350 : Anyway, I think it's very important that they go for the next generation of a/c, i.e. A350 or 787, but not for the current one, i.e. 777 or A330/A340.
42 PM : Yep. Some aircraft are stored and are a little hard to track down so I can't account for every last one but at least 84 GE-powered MD-11s are already
43 Orion737 : I reckon if another wide-bodied long-range trijet was designed or currently in production, Finnair would go for it. They do love the Trijets for long
44 PM : Orion737 But at what cost? The MD11 (pax) would have been in competition with the 777. Selling more freighters to, say, LH would have made sense but i
45 OHLBU : Yep, Varig is the source according to my inside info. Passengers can pre-book their seats according to their ticketing class, so that the least payin
46 Supa7E7 : Persotvik may have been saying that NW is maybe the most efficient big US airline. If so, it's a reasonable statement. Obviously the DC-10 is a fuel
47 Persotvik : I mean, why change an entire fleet of aircraft when you don't need too?? I don't buy a new car every time there is a new car on the market. If I did
48 Orion737 : Do Finnair MD11s still operate some charter flights like Winter flights to Las Palmas and Tenerife? I would think the capacity would be useful for bus
49 OHLBU : Occasionally yes, the destinations have been LPA and AGP, if my memory serves me right. And last winter they used them on HEL-KTT flights during the
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