Stuarts8 From New Zealand, joined Apr 2000, 39 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (9 years 9 months 2 weeks 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 4850 times:
Of course the Gulf Airlines will be laughing all the way to the Bank. In fact it makes it look as though The 2 Indian Airlines are not capable of managing their own affairs. Is the Indian Government beholden to some country that they have to review the Deals?
Art From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2005, 3471 posts, RR: 1
Reply 8, posted (9 years 9 months 2 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 4716 times:
Quoting WINGS (Reply 5): The Indian government is basically auto destructing its own flag carriers. The question we should be asking is why?
Indian administrative methods are not held up as a shining example to be emulated by the administrations of the rest of the world. The place is infected with incompetence and corruption. That is the root cause of many of the problems besetting this nation and its industries.
777ER From New Zealand, joined Dec 2003, 12596 posts, RR: 17
Reply 9, posted (9 years 9 months 2 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 4703 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW FORUM MODERATOR
Didn't the Indian government tell AI a few weeks ago to put the government's travel priortys first and its passengers travel priortys second? If so then this is an excellent example of how well the government is taking the airlines for granted.
Ikramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 21724 posts, RR: 59
Reply 10, posted (9 years 9 months 2 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 4679 times:
Here is a different take.
A few weeks ago, we heard the French government was urging India to review Boeing deals. Then within a few weeks, we were informed in the papers the Airbus deal was under review.
My guess is that when Airbus found out about the review (before the press) they got pissed and said it is unfair to review only theirs. Then the press hit, and now India would look bad if they didn't review both!
While some called A's tactics babyish, it looks as if they worked, no?
If this is the kind of "competition" from India faced by the American carriers who are expanding into India, and the middle east carriers who are planning to become huge shuttle services, even with Jet and Kingfisher, the foreign carriers have nothing to worry about...
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
BestWestern From Hong Kong, joined Sep 2000, 7704 posts, RR: 57
Reply 11, posted (9 years 9 months 2 weeks 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 4607 times:
Also interesting is the oblique comment regarding foreign investment in an Indian carrier - a direct commentary on the Indigo investment from the US - Looks like the GOI are wondering how they can protect AI / IA.
If IA AI are paying too much for their aircraft its beacuse of Government interventions in the first place!
Zamaria From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 82 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (9 years 9 months 2 weeks 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 4558 times:
I wish the Indian Government and all government held airlines would make their airlines wholly owned independent subsidiaries of the government. In other words, they are their own independent companies with loose ties to the government - sort of like the US Postal Service.
Ok, maybe the US Postal Service is not the best example (as is Amtrak) as I don't believe they've ever been profitable - but I like how the US Government has used a hands off approach with them.
Let AI/IC make their own purchase decisions leaving politics aside (I know its difficult in India), find their own funding, and only rely on the government to bail them out when times get tough.
How do other government owned airlines make their purchase decisions, and what role do their respective governments take in regards to purchases?
Aseem From India, joined Feb 2005, 2046 posts, RR: 10
Reply 13, posted (9 years 9 months 2 weeks 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 4542 times:
the whole freaking problem is that Govt of India, and Ministry of Civil Aviation in particular don't know that there is something called "Cost of Doing Nothing". The whole damn concept doesn't exist anywhere in Indian Govt circles. Can anybody drill this into their head.
FCKC From France, joined Nov 2004, 2348 posts, RR: 4
Reply 14, posted (9 years 9 months 2 weeks 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 4508 times:
Seems like Indian Government prefers corruption , and go where money is for itself.
Let AI and IC decide for themselves.
All Indian private airlines like Jet Aw , Kingfisher , Air Sahara can laugh.The market is largely open for them.........
Dutchjet From Netherlands, joined Oct 2000, 7864 posts, RR: 56
Reply 16, posted (9 years 9 months 2 weeks 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 4383 times:
The question is - can Air India or Indian Airlines ever complete an aircraft purchase deal in accoradance with normally accepted business practices?
After years of studies, delays, proposals and further delays, both airlines placed orders for new aircraft. Now both are again being studied - Indian's long delayed order for additional A32X aircraft and Air India's recent deal with Boeing both seem less than certain. It seems that an order for either of these Indian airlines is never definite or final, which at some point is going to creat a lot of problems for these airlines when dealing with Boeing or Airbus. Neither manufacturer is going to walk away from huge orders - but when exactly is an order a firm order when dealing with the Indian government?
The Indian governments keeps saying that it wants to make sure that its not overpaying for aircraft and that the aircraft are being obtained for the lowest possible sum - thats fine, but the time to do the research is before an order is placed, not after. And neither Boeing or Airbus is going to give the Indian carriers the best deal around if they anticipate that the order being constantly renegotiated and delayed - trust will be lost among the parties. And, who is to say that the Indian carriers are entitled to the absolute best deal? While these are certainly large and important orders, hundreds of factors influence the exact price for which Boeing and Airbus sell their airplanes.
Airbus acted rather foolishly when it called for an investigation into the Boeing order - they overplayed their hand - since then the Indian government has called for futher review of both the Indian Airlines/Airbus deal and now the Air India/Boeing deal. Who knows if all of this is related, but its creating a rather difficult and akward situation for the airlines and the manufacturers.
Its sad for Air India and Indian Airlines - the government is effectively making these carriers uncompetitive and will, in the long run, put them out of business. As pointed out above, look at what is going on these days in India and the Gulf - all of those airlines with all of those new airplanes are just waiting to exploit the Indian domestic and overseas market. Boeing will survive, Airbus will survive, but will Air India and Indian Airlines survive?
Kappel From Suriname, joined Jul 2005, 3533 posts, RR: 16
Reply 17, posted (9 years 9 months 2 weeks 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 4366 times:
Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 16): Airbus acted rather foolishly when it called for an investigation into the Boeing order - they overplayed their hand - since then the Indian government has called for futher review of both the Indian Airlines/Airbus deal and now the Air India/Boeing deal.
I don't think it is for us to jdge if they acted foolishly. IIRC it is the first time they reacted to a lost order this way, so something must have been really wrong. But since I don't have all the info, I'm not gonna jump to conclusions like a lot of a.net folk did.
Mrniji From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 19, posted (9 years 9 months 2 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 4166 times:
Peoplöe, seriously, this is all old news no one should care about! Where is the surprise? Where's tha big deal, man? Did anyone expect the stupid GOI to change from today to tomorrow?
In the question of private carriers, the minister did great work (better than his predecessors Rudy, Hussein, Yadav and these other doutchebags). But in the question of AI/IC, he is doing the worst possible. Ruining the airlines in an age of gflobaliyation:
It is a phenomenon that the smart and intelligent people (exception: Manmohan) hardly come to power. India has a lot of smart people, but mostly the sourcreme de la sourcreme only reaches the good position.. if someone decides to launch a rocket (manye we should ask Pakistan to help here) on the Rajiv Gandhi Bhavan, the airlines (AI/IC ) would hopefully be freed from this ministry and this useless politician called Praful Patel. It is a shame, but do you exoect these people being intelligent from today to tomorrow and being able to offset inefficient government structures within a forthnight? These is something major that has to happen. In relation to the topic: Bomb (not close) the ministry and let the sector develop itself.. I am sure AI, IC and 9W, S2 etc will be happy, as they can better compete against the interneational competition..
STUPID GOVERNMENT OF INDIA, STUPID PRAFUL PATEL!!!
Mrniji From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 22, posted (9 years 9 months 2 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 3984 times:
Quoting Aseem (Reply 21): the fact remains that combination of B777/787 are best suited for AI's needs
Though I agree with most of the rest of your post, you are talking about FACTS here. May I know what the facts are? Do you already know about the longterm plans of AI for the years 2015 etc so that it is a FACT that the 777/787 are the best? Or is it less a fact but rather your opinion that you call a fact?
Please take a little more care in calling opinions facts in the future (no offense)
DAYflyer From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 3807 posts, RR: 3
Reply 24, posted (9 years 9 months 2 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 3916 times:
If I were Boeing or Airbus I wouldn't even bother to announce orders from the Indian government run flag carriers until the plans are delivered. It will be 10 years before they see any airplanes delived to the flag carriers over there.
Aseem From India, joined Feb 2005, 2046 posts, RR: 10
Reply 25, posted (9 years 9 months 2 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 3848 times:
Quoting DAYflyer (Reply 24): If I were Boeing or Airbus I wouldn't even bother to announce orders from the Indian government run flag carriers until the plans are delivered.
agreed!! but it is a good marketing strategy for A & B to show that the order went to them and not to the other. They very well know that it is the AI and IC who will end up as losers, as they'll notch up few more orders because of unconfirmed commitment by these airlines. Sad but true.