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Tap Portugal Close To Placing A350/B787 Order  
User currently offlineWINGS From Portugal, joined May 2005, 2831 posts, RR: 68
Posted (9 years 2 months 1 week 2 days ago) and read 10239 times:

In an interview to Portuguese Newspaper, Fernando Pinto the CEO, of Tap Portugal spoke that a decision to renew its A310-300 fleet and possibly its A340 with either A350 or B787, is expected during September. Its curious that the B787-300 is not mentioned, only the B787-800/900. Tap will opt for an all long haul fleet from either Airbus or Boeing. As to their short haul, they are completely satisfied with the A320 family.

http://dn.sapo.pt//2005/07/25/negoci...embro_escolhemos_entre_airbus.html

This link is only in Portuguese.

Regards,
Wings


Aviation Is A Passion.
69 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineColumba From Germany, joined Dec 2004, 7073 posts, RR: 4
Reply 1, posted (9 years 2 months 1 week 2 days ago) and read 10150 times:

Quoting WINGS (Thread starter):
Its curious that the B787-300 is not mentioned, only the B787-800/900.

This must be a Star Alliance thing, same is with Lufthansa you would expect them being interested in the 787-300 but they publicly stated interest only in the long haul versions.



It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
User currently offlineSolnabo From Sweden, joined Jan 2008, 853 posts, RR: 2
Reply 2, posted (9 years 2 months 1 week 2 days ago) and read 10149 times:

My bet goes to A350.....

Mike//SE  crossfingers 



Airbus SAS - Love them both
User currently offlineFriendlySkies From United States of America, joined Aug 2004, 4107 posts, RR: 5
Reply 3, posted (9 years 2 months 1 week 2 days ago) and read 10088 times:

Quoting Solnabo (Reply 2):
My bet goes to A350.....

For the first and possibly last time, I'm going to agree with you. When's the last time TAP bought a Boeing? They're in bed with Airbus, Boeing is just helping them get a better deal...


User currently offlineAdria From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 4, posted (9 years 2 months 1 week 2 days ago) and read 10072 times:

The A350 is probably a better solution for the A343 and because of the commonality the A310 could also be replaced with it. Boeing does not offer a good A343/772ER replacement.

Quoting FriendlySkies (Reply 3):
For the first and possibly last time, I'm going to agree with you. When's the last time TAP bought a Boeing? They're in bed with Airbus, Boeing is just helping them get a better deal...

well years ago no one would say that BA would order the A320 instead of the 737NG, so anything can happen


User currently offlineTAP1972 From Portugal, joined Dec 2003, 396 posts, RR: 3
Reply 5, posted (9 years 2 months 1 week 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 10056 times:

Quoting FriendlySkies (Reply 3):
They're in bed with Airbus, Boeing is just helping them get a better deal...

It can work the other way either.... Boeing being interested in the deal and provide better conditions.

I've heard that TAP was waiting for 2 A330's from Swiss. This was mentioned in another tread. Anyone nows anything about this?

[Edited 2005-07-26 22:35:34]

User currently offlineJacobin777 From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 14968 posts, RR: 60
Reply 6, posted (9 years 2 months 1 week 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 10022 times:

Quoting FriendlySkies (Reply 3):
For the first and possibly last time, I'm going to agree with you

i second that notion...



"Up the Irons!"
User currently offlineBoeingBus From United States of America, joined May 2004, 1596 posts, RR: 18
Reply 7, posted (9 years 2 months 1 week 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 9982 times:

Pinto loves Boeing and this time around European politics are not at play as it used to be in the early 90's.. Also, you have to wait and see what happens with Varig... who knows - RG is a 777 operator so that may be a deciding factor in this decision...

Don't discount Boeing... Star members have been looking at the 787 heavily as of late. New Zealand, ANA, AC, LOT, SIA, and TP all looking into or have already bought the 787...

Time will tell...



Airbus or Boeing - it's all good to me!
User currently offlineColumba From Germany, joined Dec 2004, 7073 posts, RR: 4
Reply 8, posted (9 years 2 months 1 week 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 9900 times:

Quoting Adria (Reply 4):
Boeing does not offer a good A343/772ER replacement.

Well Airbus does not a offer a good 757/767/A310/A300
replacement either.... Yeah sure
The A350 is more of a 777/A340 replacement and the A330 is too big to serve short and medium hauls.



It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
User currently offlineDAYflyer From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 3807 posts, RR: 3
Reply 9, posted (9 years 2 months 1 week 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 9862 times:

Quoting FriendlySkies (Reply 3):
For the first and possibly last time, I'm going to agree with you. When's the last time TAP bought a Boeing? They're in bed with Airbus, Boeing is just helping them get a better deal...

In my opinion this is a fairly accurate assesment. I also think the A-350 will get the nod here.



One Nation Under God
User currently offlineNYC777 From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 5774 posts, RR: 47
Reply 10, posted (9 years 2 months 1 week 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 9806 times:

They're certainly going to go with the A350. TAP will only use Boeing to extract concessions from Airbus.


That which does not kill me makes me stronger.
User currently offlineCV990 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 11, posted (9 years 2 months 1 week 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 9762 times:

Hi!

Well if TAP is on the final stages to decide what model will replace the A310 and eventually the A340 it would be obvious that had to be both companies that built airplanes for that class, unfortunetely at this moment we just have Boeing and Airbus so one of them will certainly win. After reading Mr. Fernando Pinto words the information that I got from a TAP crew member a few years ago is very relevant, only at that time there wasn't either the A350 and the 787, so the new strategy is quite intelligent. I think Airbus have the best option for TAP, if we look closely when TAP would receive the first 787? With Airbus, TAP can start right away to replace the A310-300's with the A330-200's and then trade them for the brand new A350. With Boeing TAP would probably need to keep longer that A310's and those airplanes NEED badly to leave TAP!!!
Has an aviation enthusiast anything that comes will be great for TAP so I'm looking forward to see the final choise in two months!
regards


User currently offlineSRT75 From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 260 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (9 years 2 months 1 week 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 9704 times:

Quoting WINGS (Thread starter):
Its curious that the B787-300 is not mentioned, only the B787-800/900

I thought I read somewhere that Boeing is skipping -200 to -700 for the 787 for no apparent reasons. The only models will be 787-100 (the test bed) and then -800/-900.

Am I wrong??


User currently offlinePPVRA From Brazil, joined Nov 2004, 8964 posts, RR: 39
Reply 13, posted (9 years 2 months 1 week 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 9694 times:

The only problem with the A350 is that it is simply too big to fly to the NE of Brazil. It would surely be the best option to fly to GRU/GIG/EWR and longer routes to Africa, but thats about half or less than TAP's longhaul network. TAP has also expressed their wish to expand to other cities in Brazil, which are more 787-sized markets. CCS service also.

I wouldn't be surprised if they ordered both types.


Quoting WINGS (Thread starter):
In an interview to Portuguese Newspaper, Fernando Pinto the CEO, of Tap Portugal spoke that a decision to renew its A310-300 fleet and possibly its A340 with either A350 or B787, is expected during September.

TAP is still interested in RG and has stated that in September they will introduce "a more complete" [referring to the first attempt] proposal to RG.

By September RG should be already restructured, if all goes with the plan. In that case, the A350 would be a really good deal since RG needs many long range, B777/A350/MD-11 capacity. Not to mention all the "old" MD-11s (15 of them or so. Would be sad to see them go, but that's life).

OTOH, some 787s would be nice to expand RG's network out of the NE of Brazil to the USA/Europe and, acording to the interview above, would give "strong efficiency gains" for TP's fleet.

Can wait to hear the final decision!!

Cheers,
PPVRA

[Edited 2005-07-27 00:04:12]


"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
User currently offlinePPVRA From Brazil, joined Nov 2004, 8964 posts, RR: 39
Reply 14, posted (9 years 2 months 1 week 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 9645 times:

Quoting SRT75 (Reply 12):

There are three models: B787-3, -8, and -9. I believe the -8 is the test bed.

PPVRA



"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
User currently offlineLipeGIG From Brazil, joined May 2005, 11440 posts, RR: 58
Reply 15, posted (9 years 2 months 1 week 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 9585 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
FORUM MODERATOR

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 13):
I wouldn't be surprised if they ordered both types.

I agree with you, and the decision could be from where TP can fit their needs in terms of when they need the planes (i think nowadays Boeing keeps more availabilities for until 2010 deliveries, i'm right ?).

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 13):
The only problem with the A350 is that it is simply too big to fly to the NE of Brazil. It would surely be the best option to fly to GRU/GIG/EWR and longer routes to Africa, but thats about half or less than TAP's longhaul network. TAP has also expressed their wish to expand to other cities in Brazil, which are more 787-sized markets. CCS service also.

But with a long haul they can just fit all the needs (even using a big plane to FOR / NAT / REC / SSA and MCZ future flights) and can give more flexibility to improve and reduce flights. Nowadays the flexibility they have concerning to A340 is limited due to its little fleet. They can use the A340 for NAT but can't use the A310 for GRU. And there is market on Northeast to improve service (SSA and FOR are always full on Y and C).

Rgds,
Felipe

[Edited 2005-07-27 00:44:46]


New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
User currently offlineFriendlySkies From United States of America, joined Aug 2004, 4107 posts, RR: 5
Reply 16, posted (9 years 2 months 1 week 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 9556 times:

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 14):

There are three models: B787-3, -8, and -9. I believe the -8 is the test bed.

The -8 will be the first off the line. However, each one needs to be certified independently, so they are all technically testbeds.


User currently offlineDutchjet From Netherlands, joined Oct 2000, 7864 posts, RR: 57
Reply 17, posted (9 years 2 months 1 week 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 9543 times:

Dont count Boeing out of this one, the 787 could take this order.

Firstly, just because TAP has not purchased any aircraft from Boeing in recent years does not mean that TAP will always remain exclusively Airbus in the future. We have been surpirsed again and again when airlines have a fleet dominated by aircraft built by one manufacturer and then opt for the other with a big order. This order can go either way.....TAP would not be the first airline to fly Boeings for longhaul and Airbus for short haul, would they?

Secondly, the A350 is a bigger airplane than the 787......TAP flies its A313s on many thin but profitable routes out of Lisbon including the very popular services to "secondary" Brazilian cities. The A358 may simply be too big for many of these routes......its a significant jump in capacity from an A313 to an A358 and all of those extra seats could affect frequency and yeilds on the routes. A 788/789 combination may work much better for TAP than an A358/A359 mix.....so this will be a real competition between the two types.

This will be an interesting order to watch. Airbus "upsized" the A350 program for several reasons - to make the performance and economy numbers work in their favor, to keep EK happy (per many reports and rumors) and to offer an aircraft that could compete head-on with the 772 as well as the 787. Not everyone thought that Airbus made the correct decision.....is the A350 a bigger airplane than many airlines need? The market will decide in the long run, but TAP's decision may be an indication if Airbus was right or wrong when it supersized the A350.


User currently offlinePPVRA From Brazil, joined Nov 2004, 8964 posts, RR: 39
Reply 18, posted (9 years 2 months 1 week 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 9546 times:

Quoting FriendlySkies (Reply 16):
Quoting PPVRA (Reply 14):

There are three models: B787-3, -8, and -9. I believe the -8 is the test bed.

The -8 will be the first off the line. However, each one needs to be certified independently, so they are all technically testbeds.

True. The term I was looking for was "base model." The -8 is the base model, right?

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 15):

But with a long haul they can just fit all the needs (even using a big plane to FOR / NAT / REC / SSA and MCZ future flights) and can give more flexibility to improve and reduce flights. Nowadays the flexibility they have concerning to A340 is limited due to its little fleet. They can use the A340 for NAT but can't use the A310 for GRU. And there is market on Northeast to improve service (SSA and FOR are always full on Y and C).

I don't understand how they could fill a B772 sized aircraft to places such as NAT, REC and MCZ. Also, keep in mind that these will be brand new aircraft, quite an investment for such low-yielding market (mostly tourists).

Destinations like GRU and GIG certainly are beyond the 787 capacity, but then a second daily flight by TP could resolve that problem. Serving CNF non-stop could also take a lot of pax out of GRU/GIG.

My two cents anyways,
PPVRA



"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
User currently offlineVelasco From Portugal, joined Jan 2005, 101 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (9 years 2 months 1 week 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 9385 times:

With EADS current investment in OGMA (Oficinas Gerais de Material Aeronautico), the maintenance firm located in Alverca, and with OGMA's interest in grabbing a share of the A350 subcontracting, I would say the chance of TAP opting for Boeing ranges between 0 and -10. Whatever the relative merits of the airplanes.


Lisboa-Rio on the A340... São Pedro e São Paulo down below...
User currently offlineAvek00 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 4391 posts, RR: 19
Reply 20, posted (9 years 2 months 1 week 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 9371 times:

Quoting Adria (Reply 4):
The A350 is probably a better solution for the A343 and because of the commonality the A310 could also be replaced with it.

The A350 will share little commonality with the other Airbus widebodies

Quoting CV990 (Reply 11):
I think Airbus have the best option for TAP, if we look closely when TAP would receive the first 787?

TAP could still be one of the early 787 operators if it so desired



Live life to the fullest.
User currently offlineBoeingBus From United States of America, joined May 2004, 1596 posts, RR: 18
Reply 21, posted (9 years 2 months 1 week 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 9356 times:

Quoting Velasco (Reply 19):

Your post is exactly what TP has done for the last 30 years. Very sad that an airline has to surrender itself because of external pressures. The 787 is an excellent A310 replacement plane because Airbus doesn't have an equal. A350 is ideal for the A343. So maybe they will do both.

But stuff like this saddens me because they seem to always repeat bad history... it's like a broken record. very sad!

TP needs to go private and report to true shareholders NOT governments and special interests. Portugal seems to always mismanage everything they touch, see, and do.



Airbus or Boeing - it's all good to me!
User currently offlineSWISSER From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 22, posted (9 years 2 months 1 week 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 9346 times:

Quoting TAP1972 (Reply 5):
I've heard that TAP was waiting for 2 A330's from Swiss. This was mentioned in another tread. Anyone nows anything about this?

LX needs all Longhaulers and even plans to add more soon!
So I don't expect them to go...Dry wet or sold...
But interesting rumour nevertheless!


User currently offlineBrasuca From Brazil, joined Mar 2004, 717 posts, RR: 11
Reply 23, posted (9 years 2 months 1 week 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 9286 times:

Quoting BoeingBus (Reply 21):
Portugal seems to always mismanage everything they touch, see, and do.

Hmm... My country can be an evidence of that.

Sorry.. Couldn't resist.. Big grin



Varig, Varig, Varig
User currently offlineSq212 From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 272 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (9 years 2 months 1 week 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 9257 times:

It's a no brainer. TAP will go for A350. Of course, Airbus will deflate the inflated price of A350 to make it no match for B787.

 Yeah sure


25 CV990 : Hi! I would like to state that for me the 787 or the A350 will ALWAYS be a great achievement for TAP. TAP over the years have been very wise the way t
26 Adria : That's true but I wonder if there is a huge market for a 220 seat long-haul widebody (a slightly bigger aircraft is always more economical that's why
27 WINGS : I thought that Boeing has an UFO for the purchase of 6x B787. This could very well be for Tap Portugal, to replace its current 6x A310-300 fleet. It j
28 HEGAN : For their fleet structure, Airbus makes more sense. For their route structure, Boeing makes more sense. Any of them could be. However, I think we will
29 Avek00 : Airbus has already stated that the 350 will have little commonality with the A330/A340.
30 TAP1972 : As CV990 mentioned the decision might pend to the one that will be able to provide a short term solution untill TAP gets the new planes wether it is A
31 Ka : I don´t think TAP1972 meant currently operated LX-A332. Rather originally SR/LX-operated a/c. For example there are still 3 ex-SR/LX A332 stored in
32 CV990 : Hi! If TAP is getting at this point the A330 to replace first the A310's certainly they will get the A330-200, the TAP Airbus A310-300's have betwen 1
33 Dutchjet : I really dont think that TAP's A310s are in need of immediate replacement - at 14 to 17 years old, they can certainly stay with TAP for another 5 year
34 CRJ900 : If TAP plan to offer full-flat biz seats, J-closets/big lavs/lounge, economy plus sections etc etc, the A358 is not too big after all. Most legacy car
35 BoeingBus : I totally agree with you Dutchjet. The A310 were recently refurbished w/ lie flat business seats... if they need additional capacity, they will get a
36 WINGS : I don't know about the A310-300, but when it comes down to acquiring second hand A340, they are very very hard to come across. Regards, Wings
37 TAP1972 : "A TAP tem falta de aviões face ao crescimento. Como resolve o problema no imediato?" "Estamos no mercado de leasing, estudando a hipótese do A340 e
38 Dutchjet : True, but A340s will become available in the coming years - just an idea, as AF takes delivery of more 773ERs and as LH takes delivery of more A346s,
39 CV990 : Hi! According with the portuguese newspaper and the words of Mr. Fernando Pinto, the A330 would come to replace the A310 and from 2011 two models of t
40 Airbazar : I also got the impression from this interview that the A310 may be too small for their current needs, which goes against what most people seem to thi
41 CV990 : Hi! I agree with the words of Mr. Fernando Pinto about the option on the 787. I consider Mr. Fernando Pinto a great CEO, he did what no one could in t
42 BoeingBus : Air Bazar - very interesting. Are you trying to tell us that Boeing has not been excluded from this game like many here seem to believe? Pinto has bas
43 CV990 : Hi! This morning I just did a kind of a study around the contenders for the new medium/long-haul fleet and if in one point Airbus could be the natural
44 Scbriml : I believe there are close to zero of both models available out there, so not quite as easy as you seem to think.
45 TAP1972 : Very interesting point. But what could be the expected date for deliveries for either the A350 or B787? 2011, 2012?? What would TAP do until there? K
46 PM : Ka (reply 31) The ex-SR/SN A332s that LH have been flying are all PW aircraft. It may not make or break the deal but TAP are pretty firmly in the GE/C
47 WINGS : Hi CV900, I believe that these figures are for a typical 3x class layout, while Tap uses a 2x class layout, meaning that Tap can afford to increase s
48 Alitalia744 : Boeing's quoted seat numbers are for typical 3-class arrangements. Airbus are for two...
49 CV990 : Hi! Interesting issue the one regarding what TAP would get meanwhile until the final model ( either the A350 or the 787... ). If you look closely to w
50 WINGS : Mr Fernando Pinto does not mention the delivery dates if the B787 is to be chosen. For that reason I believe that Tap has placed a reservation for the
51 Post contains links BoeingBus : Wings: http://www.boeing.com/commercial/7e7/background.html The 787-8 Dreamliner and 787-9 airplanes will carry 223-259 passengers in tri-class config
52 TP313 : I think it will all come down to figuring out whether TAP needs that some of the planes feature a simmilar passenger capacity to the 343 or not. If so
53 CV990 : Hi! I don't think the 787-9 is not far in capacity than the A340-300 TAP is using, 274 against 259.... that's 15 passengers, so let's say TWO ROWS on
54 NorCal : What are the quoted capacities of the A350 in a 3-class configuration?
55 TP313 : Hi CV, anyway there is a thing that should be about settled by now: TAP will have it's long haul fleet made up of just one type. No 788/772 mixes like
56 PPVRA : If TAP reaches a deal with RG, some B763s should be no problem. They can even be flown by RG pilots as I know that TAP/RG have always been very close
57 BoeingBus : 259 is for 3 class config.... I wonder what seat plans the 789 would have for a TP's 2 class config? Generally, would the number of passengers increa
58 PPVRA : Of course, smaller seats = more pax. If TAP does not want to offer a first class to their current A343 destinations, they could probably fit an extra
59 CV990 : Hi! I can't believe that this topic is going over 50 post already. I think what's interesting about this is the fact that TAP although until now have
60 Viasa : From Skyliner Aviation:
61 WINGS : What I find most interesting is that Tap, isn't even looking at the B787-300, One would have thought that this aircraft would be an ideal replacement
62 CV990 : Hi! Interesting news what Viasa shared. I never heard about Skyliner Aviation, is that a reliable souce? If yes than we'll have Airbus winning the bid
63 Beauing : Be careful with these pax compairsons. A350-800 seating 258 in two classes. 787-800 seating 223 in three classes. A350-900 seating 316 in two classes
64 N328KF : Yes, and from here, we can tell that the 787-9 should be compared to the A350-800. The other direct comparisons aren't really useful, as much as Airb
65 NorCal : What is the usable floor space of the two?
66 DeltaWings : Shurly if TAP wanted to replace the A340-300s with a Boeing aircraft, the 772 would do a better job then the 789. The 772 is just about the same size
67 CV990 : Hi! The 777 in TAP I think out of question, not because it's a great airplane ( it is... ) but because TAP wants to stick in just one model, TAP doesn
68 PPVRA : IMO, B788/B789/A359 or B788/A358/A359. Not the 777, just too heavy/inefficient (when compared to composite technology). Cheers, PPVRA PS: What's the
69 WINGS : that's correct Mr Fernando Pinto made it very clear that Tap would opt to renew its long haul fleet with one type only. By the time the A350-900 come
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