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Why Isn't CDG The Busiest Airport In The World?  
User currently offlineJuventus From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 2835 posts, RR: 2
Posted (9 years 4 months 4 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 11253 times:

Annual Number of Arrivals

1 France 75,500,000
2 United States 50,900,000
3 Spain 48,200,000
4 Italy 41,200,000
5 China 31,200,000
6 United Kingdom 25,200,000
7 Russia 21,200,000
8 Mexico 20,600,000
9 Canada 20,400,000
10 Germany 19,000,000

It doesn't specify arrivals by ground or air. (source- aneki.com)

33 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineCommavia From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 11973 posts, RR: 62
Reply 1, posted (9 years 4 months 4 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 11228 times:

France may have the most tourist visitors of any country on the world, but many of those tourists are Europeans who drive or take trains to get into France. In addition, while France may have more tourist visitors than the U.S., it's population is about one fifth of the U.S., its job growth is stagnant at best and its economy is in the doldrums. Finally, the U.S. air transport market dramatically dwarfs that of France -- like much of the rest of Europe, many in France travel by intercity rail, whereas just about anyone in the U.S. who travels uses airplanes. There really is no meaningful rail network in the U.S.

User currently offlineCornish From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2005, 8187 posts, RR: 54
Reply 2, posted (9 years 4 months 4 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 11197 times:

Quoting Commavia (Reply 1):
Finally, the U.S. air transport market dramatically dwarfs that of France -- like much of the rest of Europe, many in France travel by intercity rail, whereas just about anyone in the U.S. who travels uses airplanes. There really is no meaningful rail network in the U.S.

Or to put it another way - the US domestic market alone sees considerably more passengers a year flown than the world's entire international services.



Just when I thought I could see light at the end of the tunnel, it was some B*****d with a torch bringing me more work
User currently offlineJoost From Netherlands, joined Apr 2005, 3186 posts, RR: 4
Reply 3, posted (9 years 4 months 4 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 11169 times:

Indeed, like Commavia states, many people go to France by train or car. And people who take the airplane, often don't fly to CDG, but to regional airports. The holiday area is the south of France, not the North where CDG is located. Just look at the Ryanair destinations map of all the flights from the UK to southern France - that is the holiday area for the Europeans. (and also the French).

User currently offline1MillionFlyer From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 4, posted (9 years 4 months 4 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 11124 times:

Atlanta had 83,000,000 passengers last year. CDG is not even close


FAA Declares Hartsfield Number 1 Overall (by 1MillionFlyer Jul 27 2005 in Civil Aviation)

France does not have as much hub-and-spoke activity as the US, also the train system is much better.


the new CDG terminal is extremely nice, it is a beautiful acheivement.


User currently offlineConcordeBoy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 5, posted (9 years 4 months 4 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 11061 times:

...and also, let us not forget the ORY and the myriad of other airports in the Parisian catchment area.

Because of that, probably the only way CDG could surpass ATL would be DL's demise; or ATL opening a 2nd commercial pax airport.


User currently offlineAirways45 From United Kingdom, joined May 2000, 300 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (9 years 4 months 4 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 11016 times:

I'm struggling to understand these numbers, and after a trawl on the internet can't find anything to back them up.

I find the French number hard to believe. So, presuming it is true, are we comparing apples with apples?

For example, the UK figure covers tourists only. So, business people and people returning home etc are not counted. I know the UK 25m is right for tourists. However, maybe the French number includes all people coming into France (for whatever reason)? I realise the popularity of France as a destination, but I understand that around 80% of the French population holiday IN France. Therefore, I find the 75m too high. I may be wrong, but it does really surprise me (especially when compared to the USA).

Can anyone back up the numbers from other websites?

Airways45


User currently offlineWdleiser From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 962 posts, RR: 3
Reply 7, posted (9 years 4 months 4 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 10953 times:

To answer the topic question:

Because many Americans are still pissed at the French.

Chicago and Atlanta are much higher in passenger numbers and movements than CDG. Heathrow has more traffic than CDG. Not sure if Frankfurt has more movements than CDG. Now is it talking about International or Domestic travel?


User currently offlineAS739X From United States of America, joined Apr 2003, 6195 posts, RR: 24
Reply 8, posted (9 years 4 months 4 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 10938 times:

Juv....where did those numbers come from? Over 50 million from the US to France, I doubt it. That roughtly 1/5 the population of the entire US. And how to 75.7 million travel to France if they already live there? What exactly are these numbers suppose to be, and where did they come from?

ASSFO



"Some pilots avoid storm cells and some play connect the dots!"
User currently offlineBobnwa From United States of America, joined exactly 14 years ago today! , 6533 posts, RR: 9
Reply 9, posted (9 years 4 months 4 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 10797 times:

Quoting AS739X (Reply 8):
Juv....where did those numbers come from? Over 50 million from the US to France, I doubt it.

He did not say 50 million from the US to France.He was reporting the number of visitors each country got from another country.


User currently offlineMisbeehavin From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 914 posts, RR: 3
Reply 10, posted (9 years 4 months 4 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 10665 times:

Quoting Airways45 (Reply 6):
I find the French number hard to believe

I don;t know which groups of people are included or excluded by different countries, but France has long been the #1 tourist destination in the world, by far.


User currently offlineIRelayer From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 1073 posts, RR: 2
Reply 11, posted (9 years 4 months 4 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 10622 times:

I would say it is because London is the natural gateway to Europe to and from the world's biggest single aviation market, the US. It is English speaking, unlike Paris, and the British had a far larger and more developed Empire than the French, which also factors into it. London connects Australia, Hong Kong, South Africa, India, Canada, and the US...all former British colonies and all massive to large economies with lots of aviation activity. By comparison, a lot of France's former colonies are either really close (Morroco, Algeria), really underdeveloped (the Gold Coast), or small islands (Mauritius, etc etc...). I think that explains it better than anything.

-IR


User currently offlineLH477 From Canada, joined Jan 2004, 584 posts, RR: 5
Reply 12, posted (9 years 4 months 4 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 10519 times:

Quoting Wdleiser (Reply 7):
Not sure if Frankfurt has more movements than CDG

I believe FRA is the largest by volume in Continental Europe. LHR is the
largest in Europe by volume.



Come on you gunners......!!!!!
User currently offlineJuventus From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 2835 posts, RR: 2
Reply 13, posted (9 years 4 months 4 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 10513 times:

This is where the info came from. http://www.aneki.com/visited.html The French number is hard to believe.

User currently offlineIRelayer From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 1073 posts, RR: 2
Reply 14, posted (9 years 4 months 4 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 10424 times:

Quoting Juventus (Reply 13):
This is where the info came from. http://www.aneki.com/visited.html The French number is hard to believe.

I think you are confusing people's desire to go to Paris itself with the viability of CDG vs. LHR and FRA as a hub airport. Fact is, both of the latter airports have a huge amount of connecting traffic from the US and Asia.

-IR


User currently offlineJuventus From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 2835 posts, RR: 2
Reply 15, posted (9 years 4 months 4 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 10312 times:

I agree with you guys, FRA, and LHR are more viable as hubs than CDG. But just by looking at the number of people that visit France, makes me wonder.

User currently offlineYUL332LX From Canada, joined Feb 2004, 820 posts, RR: 1
Reply 16, posted (9 years 4 months 4 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 10287 times:

Quoting Juventus (Reply 15):
I agree with you guys, FRA, and LHR are more viable as hubs than CDG.

What is exactly your definition of "viable"?



E volavo, volavo felice più in alto del sole, e ancora più su mentre il mondo pian piano spariva lontano laggiù ...
User currently offlineSchipholjfk From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 579 posts, RR: 6
Reply 17, posted (9 years 4 months 4 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 10044 times:

While it is true that France receives more tourists than any other country in the world, however, in my judgment a lot of the data in various other categories are way off... for example, listing New York City as the second most populous city in the world. Even when you count metropolitan New York area, it still is not the second largest city in the world. In the same manner there are other categories that present data that seems dubious. For example - cleaniest cities in the world. Oh come on... there is no way to measure that except for subjective view of people. But it is fun to look at "lists"


The fun of flying... love it !!!
User currently offlineTGV From France, joined Dec 2004, 874 posts, RR: 20
Reply 18, posted (9 years 4 months 4 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 10025 times:

I think some of the above posts mixed things, while others gave valuable information.

There is always the need, for some US airliners.net members, to be first (first airport, larger economy, larger population, higher growth rate, first air-transport market etc, etc,– just check some previous posts) which is not the question today.

So I will try to summarize elements as I see them.

1) Number of arrivals
The fact was France is number 1 in number of arrivals is a well known fact, and it has been the case for years. BUT this does not signify that all people arriving stay in France afterwards.
For example all people coming from the rest of Europe, and going by car or by train to have some vacations in Spain/Portugal will cross France, possibly spending one night on their way. They will count twice in the total, as most of them return home afterwards.  Wink

Such a thing will not happen for countries like Britain, obviously, except for people driving to Ireland.
For the US the only equivalent case would be people driving from Canada to Mexico, I doubt such a number is high!

2) Number of arrival / CDG
As mentioned above a high proportion of arrivals are by car/train, or directly to other airports than CDG.

3) CDG/ORY
Traffic is distributed between the two airports, even if they have different roles for domestic/medium haul/long haul. So you have to use figures for CDG+ORY if you want to make a comparison with ATL for example.

4) Train traffic
The high speed train network is quite extensive. In 2000 the total high speed train traffic arriving/departing from Paris (3 high speed lines) was around 60 millions passengers.
Without this rail network a fair proportion of this traffic would be in short-haul flights.

This tendency will increase in the coming years with:

  • the opening (2007) of the Channel Tunnel Rail Link phase 2 in Britain, reducing travel time between London and Paris (2h15) /Brussels (2h00).
  • the opening of the high speed line between Brussels and Amsterdam
  • the opening (June 2007) of the TGV Est-Europeen line between Paris and the east of France.


5) LHR predominance on the USA-Europe market and

Quoting Wdleiser (Reply 7):
To answer the topic question:

Because many Americans are still pissed at the French.

 Yeah sure

While the US is an important actor in the world, no doubt about this, the entire world does not revolve around them!  Wink
And consequently the US-Europe traffic is not the only important for a “global” hub.
In Europe traffic to Asia is also important !



Avoid 777 with 3-4-3 config in Y ! They are real sardine cans. (AF/KL for example)
User currently offlineUpupandaway From New Zealand, joined Sep 2004, 38 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (9 years 4 months 4 weeks ago) and read 9566 times:

Why am I not taller?! Boo hoo  Sad

User currently offlineZvezda From Lithuania, joined Aug 2004, 10511 posts, RR: 64
Reply 20, posted (9 years 4 months 3 weeks 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 9266 times:

Another reason is that CDG is often closed due to strikes.

User currently offlineWdleiser From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 962 posts, RR: 3
Reply 21, posted (9 years 4 months 3 weeks 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 9250 times:

So this is all international traffic? I still think if you combine all the international arrivals from all the US airports, you would top 90 mil a year. Think of all the intl travel between L/A and America. (Legal and illegal).


And I was just jokin about Americans still being pissed at the french. If you were to ever meet me personally you would definantly see how sarcastic I get  Wink


User currently offlineBeany From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2005, 181 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (9 years 4 months 3 weeks 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 9148 times:

You also have to factor in the millions of Brits who cross the Channel each year on a 'booze cruise' to get cheaper alcohol and tobacco amongst other things.
They may only stay for a few hours to stock up but it still goes against the visitor count of France. Even though the furthest they get is the Calais supermarkets!

France is also bordered by lots of countries. When I drove to Belgium a few years back, I had to drive through France on the way and on the way back.
This would count as two visits to France even though I was only on the autoroute for a few hours each time and didn't even stop.

The figures are correct but a little misleading.


User currently offlineYULMRS From France, joined Mar 2005, 195 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (9 years 4 months 3 weeks 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 9039 times:

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 20):
Another reason is that CDG is often closed due to strikes.

You should say WAS often closed due to strike, the social climate is much better now at both ADP (most problems with ADP are in ORY) and AF.

Quoting Beany (Reply 22):
France is also bordered by lots of countries. When I drove to Belgium a few years back, I had to drive through France on the way and on the way back.
This would count as two visits to France even though I was only on the autoroute for a few hours each time and didn't even stop.

Well, even if you don't stop you pay for the "autoroute". TGV gave the example of people going to Spain, but a Dutch or a German going to Spain will have a 1000 kms from the north to the south ... He'll eat, pay for the speedways and the diesel.

For me the main problem is ORY, this airport has to be closed and the traffic transferred to CDG (I know, it's only a dream ...).



To any North American carrier, send us a regular flight in MRS !!!!!
User currently offlineToulouse From Switzerland, joined Apr 2005, 2759 posts, RR: 57
Reply 24, posted (9 years 4 months 3 weeks 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 9036 times:

Quoting Airways45 (Reply 6):
Therefore, I find the 75m too high

I'm not sure of exact figures, but I'd say this is about right. France has for a long time been the Number 1 tourist destination in the world, followed by Spain, I believe, now in 2nd place. The US was 3rd a few years back, don't know if it still maintains this position. I'd say 75m is close enough. 2004 did see a drop in tourism to France, yet 2005 is looking better.



Long live Aer Lingus!
25 Toulouse : This is also very true. Many tourists arrive by car/train. And many flights use regional airport, of which there are many in France. In summer the pe
26 Post contains images TGV : Sorry to have missed the sarcasm, but a would have helped identifying it. Unfortunately people with a US flag near their name are not always full of
27 Juventus : Does anybody have a list for the top 5 busiest airports in Europe. I wonder how FRA, LHR, MAD, AMS, and fall.
28 OzGlobal : I don't understand why people are having trouble with the international arrival figures, because: i) The fact that France is the most visited country
29 Post contains images JGPH1A : Except it misses of the busiest and most popular holiday destination airport in France - NCE I think Mauritius would be slightly annoyed at being cal
30 Burnsie28 : UH, Los Angeles, New York JFK, seem to ring a bell. Europe airports will always have more "international" since the country right next to you, say Ge
31 Beany : This is a little misleading. As said in this thread. France is bordered by a lot of different countries. If someone is driving from Belgium to Spain
32 Francoflier : I don't see why CDG should be the busiest airport... Domestic flights are limited, there are not a lot of airports in France that take domestic flight
33 OzGlobal : UH, yes, they ring a bell, thank you, but not as being amongst the busiest in the world in terms of international traffic last time I checked.
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