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JAT To Reposes Its 733s From Macedonian  
User currently offlineJoKeR From Serbia, joined Nov 2004, 2226 posts, RR: 9
Posted (8 years 8 months 3 weeks 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 3556 times:

The ongoing diplomatic spat between Serbia and FYR of Macedonia over the latter’s arrest of the chief Serbian Orthodox Bishop in Skopje has now resulted in the immediate repossession of both Boeing 737-300’s leased to the Macedonian national carrier – MAT.

MAT has been defaulting on the ACMI payments for these two aircraft for many months now, and until few days ago the Serbian Government - as JAT’s owner, turned a blind eye. Now though, Mr. Velimir Ilic - the Minister for Capital Investments has instructed JAT to bring the two airliners back home; his decision directly resulting from the arrest and imprisonment last week of the Serbian Bishop. This move will badly affect Macedonian Airline’s schedules, maybe even resulting in its demise due to its massive debts and poor credit rating.

Recalling of the ambassadors is the next step hinted, hope that sanity will prevail!


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Kafa, čaj, šraf?
40 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineAleksandar From Serbia, joined Jul 2000, 3235 posts, RR: 32
Reply 1, posted (8 years 8 months 3 weeks 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 3456 times:

It is something very unusual. First of all, decision to reposes those planes was not made by the JAT menagement but by one of the all-mighty ministers.

The relationship between JAT and MAT was shady for many years now and there's no doubt that things needed to be cleared up in that respect, but why now? Somehow, I simply don't see what the case of Bishop in Macedonia has anything to do with JAT or MAT. There were other ways to solve that problem. But, again, there were so many moves by Ministers Ilic that I couldn't understand (to put it mildly) so why not adding another one to that list. But, to be honest, there is another person that is involved in this crisis, although everybody is silent about it. Bogoljub Karic. For days his TV station was campaigning against the arrest and he is also very close to Minister Ilic, so...

Quoting JoKeR (Thread starter):
Recalling of the ambassadors is the next step hinted, hope that sanity will prevail!

I agree with you. Sanity is badly needed in this situation.



R-E-S-P-E-C-T
User currently offlineJoKeR From Serbia, joined Nov 2004, 2226 posts, RR: 9
Reply 2, posted (8 years 8 months 3 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 3412 times:

It has just been announced that Macedonian Airline - MAT, obviously backed by its Government, has refused to give JAT its planes back, despite owing more than US$ 7 million in lease payments.

The Serbian Government has now threatened more action, to be announced shortly.

Now my question is how is it possible to turn something as beautiful and liberalizing as flying into a bitter and imprisoning factor of a diplomatic row?  vomit 



Kafa, čaj, šraf?
User currently offlineJoKeR From Serbia, joined Nov 2004, 2226 posts, RR: 9
Reply 3, posted (8 years 8 months 3 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 3395 times:

Quoting Aleksandar (Reply 1):
Bogoljub Karic. For days his TV station was campaigning against the arrest and he is also very close to Minister Ilic, so...

I think it would be far more helpful if they pettitoned for the immediate resignation of Mr Ilic who treats JAT as if it his own company. What happened in Macedonia is very sad but you do not go resolving a diplomatic incident through means as we witnessed today. Our politicians need a lecture in diplomacy and diplomatic etiquette!  embarrassed 



Kafa, čaj, šraf?
User currently offlineAleksandar From Serbia, joined Jul 2000, 3235 posts, RR: 32
Reply 4, posted (8 years 8 months 3 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 3364 times:

Quoting JoKeR (Reply 2):
It has just been announced that Macedonian Airline - MAT, obviously backed by its Government, has refused to give JAT its planes back, despite owing more than US$ 7 million in lease payments.

In that case, JAT should have reposesed those planes a long time ago.

Quoting JoKeR (Reply 3):
I think it would be far more helpful if they pettitoned for the immediate resignation of Mr Ilic who treats JAT as if it his own company.



Quoting JoKeR (Reply 3):
What happened in Macedonia is very sad but you do not go resolving a diplomatic incident through means as we witnessed today.

A absolutely agree with you.

Quoting JoKeR (Reply 2):
Now my question is how is it possible to turn something as beautiful and liberalizing as flying into a bitter and imprisoning factor of a diplomatic row?

Well, that is becoming weird. Are you reading my mind?  scared  It is a question I often ask myself. In fact, every time I go to the airport or pass by JAT office, but answer seems logical to me. If you have a situation where flying is seen as nothing more than a mean to get a goal (in this case power, money, political and social status) than one cannot expect anything else. What we see today (not only this incident but the situation around JAT in general) is just a result of years and decades of such way of thinking, behaving and acting. And it makes me really sad.  Sad



R-E-S-P-E-C-T
User currently offlineWassch71 From Lebanon, joined Feb 2005, 208 posts, RR: 18
Reply 5, posted (8 years 8 months 3 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 3364 times:

A bit off-topic, but I just checked by curiosity MAT's website. They apparently have daily flights to Zurich. I also recently read in a recent article on Nis Airport (great article btw) that JAT occasionally offers direct flights from there to Zurich. Is there such a big market in Switzerland from southern Serbia and Macedonia to justify these flights; or they're just used for connections?
Regards
Wassim.



MEA...Like No Other
User currently offlineAleksandar From Serbia, joined Jul 2000, 3235 posts, RR: 32
Reply 6, posted (8 years 8 months 3 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 3356 times:

Quoting Wassch71 (Reply 5):
Is there such a big market in Switzerland from southern Serbia and Macedonia to justify these flights; or they're just used for connections?

Yes, there is a healthy demand for such flights. A huge number of people went to Switzerland, Germany and France to work there in 1960s and 1970s. Every summer they usually return home for vacation and sometimes, some of their relatives pay them a visit to those countries. Load factors are high on flights from Nis to Zurich. Last year, when I paid a visit to the Nis airport, there were two flights leaving to Zurich (Montenegro F-100 and JAT 733) and they were both full. Interestingly, they left Nis within an hour.



R-E-S-P-E-C-T
User currently offlineTravel From Australia, joined May 2001, 355 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (8 years 8 months 3 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 3339 times:

Is Macedonian Airlines in financial trouble?

User currently offlineJoKeR From Serbia, joined Nov 2004, 2226 posts, RR: 9
Reply 8, posted (8 years 8 months 3 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 3274 times:

Quoting Travel (Reply 7):
Is Macedonian Airlines in financial trouble?

 yes 



Kafa, čaj, šraf?
User currently offlineUN_B732 From United States of America, joined Jul 2001, 4289 posts, RR: 4
Reply 9, posted (8 years 8 months 3 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 3279 times:

Some days 4 ZRH-BEG flights operate (1 LX, 1 YM, 2 JU)
It's somewhat odd that their using an airline to penalize Macedonia for their behavior in the arrest, but they really should repossess the planes if MAT owes JAT 7 million.. However, I don't understand why they didn't reposess the aircraft earlier.
-mr. X



What now?
User currently offlineSobelair From Croatia, joined Sep 2000, 353 posts, RR: 1
Reply 10, posted (8 years 8 months 3 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 3226 times:

Hi

I have always been wandering how come JAT never initiated some kind of stronger ties with MAT, at least a codeshare agreement, or some kind of regional alliance.
It would have been a logical step, following the lease deal with 737 being supplied by JAT (and the logo MAT somehow reminds me a lot on JAT).

I talked to so many Macedonian, and lot of them use Belgrade as a hub for transferring when flying to Europe. And MAT has currently codeshare with AUA and SWISS, if I am not mistaken. And few other West European destinations other than Zurich, Vienna, Rome. So Belgrade is ideal for transit. And JAT and MAT would have had a virtual monopoly. Well, it seems like now chances for this are vanishing rapidly.

Too bad. Because I liked so much the idea JAT initiated few years ago about regional alliance. I always suspected that JAT had MAT on their mind, together with Bulgaria Air (none of those three is a member of existing alliance,) and together they could eventually attract Adria Airways on some way at least.

Even the idea JAT had to establish regional Inter link air, with ATR 72s was a good one, never happened though. And I had this crazy thought JAT will help MAT lease also a couple of ATR 72s and start the same thing out of Skopje.

Wishful thinking...hehe. ;o)


User currently offlineJU101 From Canada, joined Mar 2001, 832 posts, RR: 4
Reply 11, posted (8 years 8 months 2 weeks 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 3115 times:

What I cannot comprehend is the stupidity of Serbian politicians for directing cash-strapped JAT to lease aircraft to MAT without receiving adequate payments to begin with! JAT still operates DC-9s on scheduled domestic flights; they could have saved lots of money by operating the same routes on more comfortable and fuel efficient 737s. Moreover, they could have used these two additional planes for charters instead of using the highly inefficient Boeing 727s. Clearly lots of money has been wasted without any justification.

I support the return to Belgrade, however the timing is all wrong. Such a return should have been established on the first or second month of defaulted payments years ago. MAT are bound for bankruptcy without significant government intervention.


User currently offlineAleksandar From Serbia, joined Jul 2000, 3235 posts, RR: 32
Reply 12, posted (8 years 8 months 2 weeks 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 3108 times:

Quoting JU101 (Reply 11):
JAT still operates DC-9s on scheduled domestic flights; they could have saved lots of money by operating the same routes on more comfortable and fuel efficient 737s. Moreover, they could have used these two additional planes for charters instead of using the highly inefficient Boeing 727s. Clearly lots of money has been wasted without any justification.

I think JAT doesn't fly DC-9s. Some are leased out and can be seen in Dubai. The use of 727s is justified because it is still the biggest plane (170 seats) and 733 might be insufficient on those full flights.

Quoting JU101 (Reply 11):
I support the return to Belgrade, however the timing is all wrong

I agree with you. It's not the problem why JAT reposesed those planes, but why now. I simply hate mixing aviation with politics.



R-E-S-P-E-C-T
User currently offlineJU101 From Canada, joined Mar 2001, 832 posts, RR: 4
Reply 13, posted (8 years 8 months 2 weeks 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 3051 times:

Regarding the charters, they could have accommodated their needs with either more flights with the 733 or properly lease out the aircraft and supplement them with additional 734s. I withouth a doubt could do a much better job in running JAT than these politicians any day!

User currently offlineUN_B732 From United States of America, joined Jul 2001, 4289 posts, RR: 4
Reply 14, posted (8 years 8 months 2 weeks 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 3046 times:

I didn't think JAT had DC9s either, but the JatAirways timetable claims all BEG-TGD flying is on DC-9s, and one of the daily BEG-TIV flights. I thought they were running ATRs/737s to TGD, but i'm not sure.
-Mr. X



What now?
User currently offlineStjuard From Austria, joined Aug 2005, 61 posts, RR: 3
Reply 15, posted (8 years 8 months 2 weeks 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 3025 times:

First - hello to everyone, I'm new here as a member. I've been following this forum for years but now I can write too  Big grin

Knowing that Jat Airways is an airline whit extremely poor management who themselves do not know why are they there and what are they doing, this is not a surprise.
They lease out 733s to MAT and "aero" of Nigeria and they lease in 733 and 734 (ok, 734 I can understand). I really don't get it  Confused
Anyway this move is highly unprofessional and, hopefully, someone will buy crippled Jat Airways and things like this (and far worse we don't know about) will be avoided.



Slides armed, crosscheck done.
User currently offlineBEG2IAH From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 892 posts, RR: 15
Reply 16, posted (8 years 8 months 2 weeks 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 2996 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Stjuard,

Welcome to A.net!

I just heard that MAT wants to "pay off" its debt to JAT by the "debt" Serbian Air Traffic Control "owes" to Macedonia. If Macedonian airspace was controlled by Serbian agency why would they give up that money? And aren't these two separate firms?

I really get mad when I read anything that has a mixture of politics and aviation in it. It always sucks big time.

BEG2IAH



FAA killed the purpose of my old signature: Use of approved electronic devices is now permitted.
User currently offlineJU101 From Canada, joined Mar 2001, 832 posts, RR: 4
Reply 17, posted (8 years 8 months 2 weeks 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 2978 times:

Welcome Stjuard.

I am still under the assumption that the JAT DC-9 is still in operation on domestic flights, has anyone heard anything different?

Any news from Air Maxi by the way?


User currently offlineStjuard From Austria, joined Aug 2005, 61 posts, RR: 3
Reply 18, posted (8 years 8 months 2 weeks 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 2955 times:

Thanx guys!

DC-9 is not in scheduled traffic. As a matter of fact, I haven't seen one since few months ago. I think it's flying from Dubai to Afghanistan etc.

As for Air Maxi - they are beginning flights in June 2005. And in July 2005...  banghead  Who knows when will they start. No airplanes for them came to Belgrade. And it's a venture between "Delta holding" and Aviogenex. Well, I can tell you that Aviogenex is not turning of the engines on their Boeing 727s, they fly all the time. As AVIOGENEX  duck 



Slides armed, crosscheck done.
User currently offlineAleksandar From Serbia, joined Jul 2000, 3235 posts, RR: 32
Reply 19, posted (8 years 8 months 2 weeks 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 2949 times:

Quoting Stjuard (Reply 15):
First - hello to everyone, I'm new here as a member.

Welcome  bigthumbsup 

Quoting Stjuard (Reply 15):
Knowing that Jat Airways is an airline whit extremely poor management who themselves do not know why are they there and what are they doing, this is not a surprise.

I agree.

Quoting Stjuard (Reply 15):
hopefully, someone will buy crippled Jat Airways

I doubt. First, JAT would need to make huge changes, otherwise none of the possible buyers will be interested. JAT is so messed-up now that anyone sane enough wouldn't invest a single cent in it.

Quoting BEG2IAH (Reply 16):
really get mad when I read anything that has a mixture of politics and aviation in it. It always sucks big time.

Aren't we all getting mad?  pessimist 



R-E-S-P-E-C-T
User currently offlineStjuard From Austria, joined Aug 2005, 61 posts, RR: 3
Reply 20, posted (8 years 8 months 2 weeks 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 2947 times:

Quoting BEG2IAH (Reply 16):
I just heard that MAT wants to "pay off" its debt to JAT by the "debt" Serbian Air Traffic Control "owes" to Macedonia. If Macedonian airspace was controlled by Serbian agency why would they give up that money? And aren't these two separate firms?

That's right BEG2IAH! Macedonia did not control their airspace so it's really stupid. And Jat Airways and Air Traffic Control have NO connection (except while flying  Big grin )



Slides armed, crosscheck done.
User currently offlineStjuard From Austria, joined Aug 2005, 61 posts, RR: 3
Reply 21, posted (8 years 8 months 2 weeks 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 2938 times:

Thanx Aleksandar!  wave 

You are right about Jat AIrways needing to make HUGE changes! That's why I said hopefully!  pray 



Slides armed, crosscheck done.
User currently offlineBEG2IAH From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 892 posts, RR: 15
Reply 22, posted (8 years 8 months 2 weeks 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 2926 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Hi guys.

Just read in Glas Javnosti that Delta Holding gave up on making Air Maxi a reality, because Aviogenex did not provide a plane. What do these guys smoke?

BEG2IAH



FAA killed the purpose of my old signature: Use of approved electronic devices is now permitted.
User currently offlineStjuard From Austria, joined Aug 2005, 61 posts, RR: 3
Reply 23, posted (8 years 8 months 2 weeks 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 2922 times:

Quoting BEG2IAH (Reply 22):
Just read in Glas Javnosti that Delta Holding gave up on making Air Maxi a reality, because Aviogenex did not provide a plane. What do these guys smoke?

I knew this would happen, Welcome to Serbia, the country of opportunities
 liar 



Slides armed, crosscheck done.
User currently offlineAleksandar From Serbia, joined Jul 2000, 3235 posts, RR: 32
Reply 24, posted (8 years 8 months 2 weeks 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 2892 times:

Quoting BEG2IAH (Reply 22):
Just read in Glas Javnosti that Delta Holding gave up on making Air Maxi a reality

 rotfl   rotfl   rotfl   rotfl 

First, it was Aero Nais, then it's Air Maxi. As time goes by, I more an more believe in one sarcastic saying GDE NESTAJE RAZUM, TU NASTAJE SRBIJA  sarcastic 

Quoting BEG2IAH (Reply 22):
What do these guys smoke?

Don't ask, my friend. Just don't ask  shhh 



R-E-S-P-E-C-T
25 Post contains images BEG2IAH : When naming LCC companies to be, they shouldn't use any word that means 'air'. It leads to an automatic failure. BEG2IAH
26 Post contains images Stjuard : hahaha But those "Aero" prefixes are lame. It always reminds me of SSSR
27 Post contains links UN_B732 : Jaoo.. I thought Air Maxi had a good idea behind it. Notice that www.airmaxi.com now just says Air Maxi and has the generic picture of a plane.. No mo
28 Post contains images Stjuard : Wow, they removed everything! Just that drawing... Well, it was a very good idea which failed as all good ideas here in Serbia Well, who knows what's
29 VHTAE : Hi all, it's nice to be back. Can I ask why the Serbian bishop was arrested? As for the 737s, if MAT was not paying the lease JAT should of repossesse
30 Travel : Air Vardar has been set up, however it's license was cancelled because Air Vardar had big debts. MAT-Macedonian Airlines has so far been the longest o
31 VHTAE : Thanks for that information 'Travel'. I just jumped on their website and read under 'Fly With Us' that in 2000 the Government recognised MAT as being
32 Travel : Hi VHTAE, The government has appointed MAT as the national flag carrier however something still isnt right though. I have an article on Airliner World
33 Thomas_Jaeger : I saw Z3-AAA still operating in ZRH yesterday on a MAT flight.
34 Flycro : Did BA make money from there short lived route to Skopje? They must think theres money to make in the region now that they will fly to Tirana next yae
35 JoKeR : And money there is, the BEG flights are doing very well. I wonder though how they plan to make Varna a hit? TIA should be quite successfull for them
36 Flycro : They'll be hopeing for bucket and spade pax at Varna, also many Brits are buying second homes in Bulgaria which will help the route. SPU and DBV fligh
37 Travel : BA suspended services from LGW/SKP in 2001 while the civil unrest between Macedonians and Albanians was taking place in Macedonia. I read somewhere th
38 Thomas_Jaeger : Z3-AAA was again operating into ZRH as was Z3-AAF. However, it seems as if Z3-ARF has gone since they had to reroute flights today, one flight operate
39 Post contains links Sokol : From Friday MAT Macedonian Airlines will transport its passengers with MD-82 "Bullgaria Air Charter". http://www.makfax.com.mk/look/agenci...1=vest&ST
40 Thomas_Jaeger : So did they just keep Z3-ARF in Belgrade after maintenance with the other aircraft (Z3-AAA) not affected by these measures?
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