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Is IND Over Served?  
User currently offlineFedexexpress From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 284 posts, RR: 0
Posted (9 years 1 month 3 weeks 1 day ago) and read 3231 times:

Does any one thing IND has to much pax service to the airport. If so what is some of the routes that are over served? And do you think there are routes that need to be added, or ramped up by more service. I am just curious what others think. Thanks Eric


"Its not what your country can do for you its what you can do for your country" JFK
79 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 32789 posts, RR: 72
Reply 1, posted (9 years 1 month 3 weeks 1 day ago) and read 3228 times:

If it is overserved, then the market will adjust to it. I don't really think IND is overserved, but it definitley isn't underserved, and has much better service for a city of its size than most other US cities do. It is well served, and, outside of a flight to the Bay Area, is not lacking in non-stop destinations.


a.
User currently offlineFedexexpress From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 284 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (9 years 1 month 3 weeks 1 day ago) and read 3222 times:

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 1):
and has much better service for a city of its size than most other US cities do. It is well served, and, outside of a flight to the Bay Area, is not lacking in non-stop destinations.

i agree



"Its not what your country can do for you its what you can do for your country" JFK
User currently offlineLambertMan From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 2077 posts, RR: 35
Reply 3, posted (9 years 1 month 3 weeks 1 day ago) and read 3232 times:

Really hard to say one way or another. As previously mentioned, the Bay Area doesn't have any filghts. Perhaps NW will start a seasonal flight to SFO next summer, I certainly think that it would work. Besides that, there really isn't a whole lot of uncovered ground. It even has service to a few destinations that are a bit surprising (i.e. AUS, BDL, JAX).

Oh, BTW, CUN is returning despite its low LF's that were posted on jetphotos.


User currently offlineMtnmanmakalu From Ireland, joined Nov 2004, 515 posts, RR: 3
Reply 4, posted (9 years 1 month 3 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 3150 times:

I just worked a 5-day trip all with IND layovers doing turns to LAS and DEN back and forth everyday and the planes were totally full- No open seats, no non-revs onboard, etc. I would say in this case, IND is definitely NOT over-served!!

mtnman



I do, I don't, whatever.......
User currently offlineNorCal From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 2459 posts, RR: 5
Reply 5, posted (9 years 1 month 3 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 3100 times:

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 1):
It is well served, and, outside of a flight to the Bay Area, is not lacking in non-stop destinations.

Anybody have plans to launch a non-stop flight IND-OAK?


User currently offlinePUDFW From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 121 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (9 years 1 month 3 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 3092 times:

IND is really the airport for the whole state, so it does just get Indianapolis people.

So I don’t think it’s a surprise that at least the loads on the flights are pretty good.

I drive 50 minutes from West Lafayette to use fly out of there and I know a lot of other people do as well. The regional airports in Indiana really arent served that well so its either fly out of IND or Chicago or Cincinnati and to some degree Ft Wayne (which doesn’t have that many options and is expensive).

I might add that is not a bad drive and its pretty convenient. Thank god they raised the speed limit to 70!


User currently offlineFedexexpress From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 284 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (9 years 1 month 3 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 3072 times:

Quoting Mtnmanmakalu (Reply 4):
I just worked a 5-day trip all with IND layovers doing turns to LAS and DEN back and forth everyday and the planes were totally full- No open seats, no non-revs onboard, etc. I would say in this case, IND is definitely NOT over-served!!

mtnman

So what routes should you IND add then??



"Its not what your country can do for you its what you can do for your country" JFK
User currently offlineSRT75 From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 260 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (9 years 1 month 3 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 3071 times:

Whether or not planes are full, I think history demonstrates that IND is not profitable.

US used to use IND as a "mini-hub" (important enough that a terminal map was in the on-board magazine). That died in the mid to late 1990s.

NW has converted IND into a mini-hub, apparently without much success. As it has done the same thing with MKE there is a theory that NW is simply over-protective of its traditional base - the upper midwest.

ATA (based in Indianapolis) has cut back IND service over the years, instead focusing on MDW.

I also used to fly IND pretty regulalry (go Purdue!), and my empirical evidence was that loads were always pretty good.

Is it true that IND is not profitable?? If so, why?


User currently offlineFedexexpress From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 284 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (9 years 1 month 3 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 3048 times:

how is it not profitable??? explain your reasons???????


"Its not what your country can do for you its what you can do for your country" JFK
User currently offlineIndy From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 4568 posts, RR: 18
Reply 10, posted (9 years 1 month 3 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 3041 times:

Quoting SRT75 (Reply 8):
US used to use IND as a "mini-hub" (important enough that a terminal map was in the on-board magazine). That died in the mid to late 1990s.

From what I understand US had gone mini-hub/focus city wild for a period of time. Too many. Something had to be cut back. I don't believe IND was alone in getting the axe.

Quoting SRT75 (Reply 8):
ATA (based in Indianapolis) has cut back IND service over the years, instead focusing on MDW.

God only knows what ATA was doing. Personally I think they made too many wild decisions in a very short period of time as a result of poor finances. I think they reacted when they started building the IND hub and I think they were reacting when they changed their mind only a few months later.

Quoting SRT75 (Reply 8):
s it true that IND is not profitable?? If so, why?

The airport authority itself is doing pretty well. Don't know if I can say the same for the airlines. Where a lack of competition drives up prices and hurts the consumer I think INDs excess of competition drives down prices and hurts the airlines. There is quite a large selection for an airport this size. But I think the problem here is a reflection of a system wide problem of too many airlines.



Indy = Indianapolis and not Independence Air
User currently offlineVegasplanes From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 778 posts, RR: 2
Reply 11, posted (9 years 1 month 3 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 3017 times:

Quoting Indy (Reply 10):
From what I understand US had gone mini-hub/focus city wild for a period of time. Too many. Something had to be cut back. I don't believe IND was alone in getting the axe.

I believe you are correct, I recall US operating a "Mini-Hub" or focus city in Dayton in the late 80's/early 90's. That might have been a reminant of the Piedmont acquisition.

Getting back to IND, I would think if an airline would start service on the IND-OAK route it would be WN or TZ. NW or UA might consider a daily flight to SFO if demand is there or to connect to their Aisan and Hawaii flights.


User currently offlineTornado82 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 12, posted (9 years 1 month 3 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 2982 times:

On an individual route basis... IND-PHL has to be overserved since NW added the CRJ's. Why they thought that would be profitable VS US' mainline/RJ mix to their main hub was beyond me. Alot of other fish for NW to fry from IND other than PHL.

User currently offlineStirling From Italy, joined Jun 2004, 3943 posts, RR: 21
Reply 13, posted (9 years 1 month 3 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 2968 times:

Sure the IND flights are full; with the competition present currently, and the fares that result from such activity, one should really expect nothing less.
The airlines are hoping to win by volume. But as it might appear as having license to print money, the actual opposite is true.

Yields vanish into thin air.

Indy has always been this way.
Back in the 90's, when US hubbed/focused on IND, round-trip fares from SFO were less than $200. Sometimes, as low as $158.
Now that is just stupid.
No one can make a profit flying damn near cross the country and back for that price. In this case, ATA, or American Trans Air as was the case then set a very LOW fare precedent; which everyone who served IND followed. So even now as ATA fades away, (only serving LAX, LAS, MCO, RSW) the pattern of behavior has been continued by those that remain, Southwest, Frontier, Independence, airTran, etc..

Quoting SRT75 (Reply 8):
Whether or not planes are full, I think history demonstrates that IND is not profitable.

A plane full of people that paid clearance rack fares will do that.

Quoting Fedexexpress (Reply 9):
how is it not profitable??? explain your reasons???????

As discussed, full airplanes do not guarantee profitability. When nearly every destination served from IND is sold at a discount, someone is going to feel pain....especially those guys with high costs having to match the fares of airlines with operating costs half theirs. (example; US vs. WN)

Quoting Mtnmanmakalu (Reply 4):
just worked a 5-day trip all with IND layovers doing turns to LAS and DEN back and forth everyday and the planes were totally full- No open seats, no non-revs onboard, etc. I would say in this case, IND is definitely NOT over-served

LAS and DEN, competitive markets....low fares.....low yields, if any yield at all.

But the upside to all this is; I've never heard anyone who lives within two-hours of Indianapolis complain of high airfares....inconsistent airline service, but who cares? Right? As long as Joe Q Public saves a buck....



Delete this User
User currently offlineLambertMan From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 2077 posts, RR: 35
Reply 14, posted (9 years 1 month 3 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 2953 times:

Quoting Fedexexpress (Reply 7):
So what routes should you IND add then??

The routes that are left over from the ones currently not served offer very slim pickings. Maybe SAT or SFO, but there is not much beyond those two that I can think of. Chances are IND will stay fairly stable as far as passenger growth and service additions.


User currently offlineIndy From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 4568 posts, RR: 18
Reply 15, posted (9 years 1 month 3 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 2937 times:

Quoting LambertMan (Reply 14):
The routes that are left over from the ones currently not served offer very slim pickings. Maybe SAT or SFO, but there is not much beyond those two that I can think of. Chances are IND will stay fairly stable as far as passenger growth and service additions.

That is pretty accurate. You might be able to add SFO and SAN but thats about it. Perhaps PDX. But that would pretty much complete the cities able to be served nonstop in a strictly O/D environment. As the years go by and the number of PAX served increases there will be more and more cities creaping up into the nonstop picture.

Lets face it... there just isn't going to be much demand for nonstop service from Indianapolis, IN to Fargo, ND  Smile



Indy = Indianapolis and not Independence Air
User currently offlineLambertMan From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 2077 posts, RR: 35
Reply 16, posted (9 years 1 month 3 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 2866 times:

Quoting SRT75 (Reply 8):
NW has converted IND into a mini-hub, apparently without much success. As it has done the same thing with MKE there is a theory that NW is simply over-protective of its traditional base - the upper midwest.

Chances are that you don't know for certain how well IND is doing for NW. It's kind of a hard situation to analyze, but here is what I have gathered:

The loads haven't been overwhelming on the majority of the routes, but that says very little. Some of the business heavy routes to PHL, RDU, and LGA are seemingly the best performers. I will agree however, the leisure based routes need to basically be selling out to make money at the prices they are charging. Routes like Cancun, which is topping out at nearly 90 passengers on the A320 are probably losing NW quite a bit, but stands to return. So really, its hard to say how NW is doing in IND. Time will tell.


User currently offlineTornado82 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 17, posted (9 years 1 month 3 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 2837 times:

How is there enough O&D on IND-PHL to support US' virtual armada to the hub everyday, AND NW's CRJ's?? The fares on that route have gotten down to bloodbath status a few times too... I've seen it as low as $159. There's no way NW can break even with a CRJ-440 on that route and that fare.

User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 32789 posts, RR: 72
Reply 18, posted (9 years 1 month 3 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 2844 times:

Quoting Indy (Reply 15):
You might be able to add SFO and SAN but thats about it. Perhaps PDX.

There is no "perhaps PDX". I don't see why people think NW would start this route. They don't even bother flying MEM-PDX and DTW-PDX was not year-round until this past winter, and even then it only operated 5x weekly. IND-PDX is not going to happen.

SFO, however, makes perfect sense. A daily A319, year-round. I would not be surprised. And a summer service to San Diego could also be a winner, although, again, they don't fly MEM-SAN (they have seasonally in the past), I don't see them doing IND-SAN before that.

[Edited 2005-08-02 06:47:19]


a.
User currently offlineJetdeltamsy From United States of America, joined Nov 2000, 2987 posts, RR: 7
Reply 19, posted (9 years 1 month 3 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 2789 times:

Southwest's presence keeps fares low at IND. People drive from 3 states to IND to get the low fares.

Overserved? It's a busy place. I don't think so.



Tired of airline bankruptcies....EA/PA/TW and finally DL.
User currently offlineGLA MD11 From France, joined Mar 2000, 277 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (9 years 1 month 3 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 2751 times:

Also IND is close to large universities that have a lot of international students and faculty travelling (in addition to Indianapolis-based Lilly people). A lot of the traffic out of IND is for each airline hub (ORD, EWR, IAH, DTW, IAD, etc.) then dispatching pax to international destinations.

I have spent 2 years at IUB as a French student and there was always a lot of people on those flights leaving to or arriving from international destinations, connecting in the hubs and ending their journey at IND.

That brings pax but not revenue for the domestic flights.


User currently offlineIndy From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 4568 posts, RR: 18
Reply 21, posted (9 years 1 month 3 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 2716 times:

Quoting GLA MD11 (Reply 20):
Also IND is close to large universities that have a lot of international students and faculty travelling (in addition to Indianapolis-based Lilly people). A lot of the traffic out of IND is for each airline hub (ORD, EWR, IAH, DTW, IAD, etc.) then dispatching pax to international destinations.

I have spent 2 years at IUB as a French student and there was always a lot of people on those flights leaving to or arriving from international destinations, connecting in the hubs and ending their journey at IND.

I have noticed that when I travel to Europe. That is one of the biggest cases I made as well for IND eventually getting transatlantic service. I just don't think its likely until 2008 - 2010. Possible but not likely.



Indy = Indianapolis and not Independence Air
User currently offlineFormerhongky From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 30 posts, RR: 1
Reply 22, posted (9 years 1 month 3 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 2676 times:

Quote:
I have noticed that when I travel to Europe. That is one of the biggest cases I made as well for IND eventually getting transatlantic service. I just don't think its likely until 2008 - 2010. Possible but not likely.

Perhaps a NW 787 to AMS in the future may happen?


User currently offlineIndy From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 4568 posts, RR: 18
Reply 23, posted (9 years 1 month 3 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 2673 times:

Quoting Formerhongky (Reply 22):
Perhaps a NW 787 to AMS in the future may happen?

If I were running an airline I'm not sure I'd use that kind of equipment on what would be an experimental route. I would use something a bit older and with reduced seating capacity. A332 perhaps? Would there be any point to a 757-200? From what I've been told cargo is a big deal. Not sure how much you can get in a 757. May need a widebody to get the kind of space you need to make the route profitable. That may be where the A332 comes in.



Indy = Indianapolis and not Independence Air
User currently offlineSlider From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 6816 posts, RR: 34
Reply 24, posted (9 years 1 month 3 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 2670 times:

Quoting SRT75 (Reply 8):
I think history demonstrates that IND is not profitable.

From my experience, the yield is very profitable in IND, which is one of the reasons it DOES have so much service relative to its size. PUDFW made the point that IND's catchment area is much larger geographically than many other medium/large cities, and it has a solid convention and business market.


25 Indy : The convention business here is getting set for a major expansion. A new stadium is set to start construction this month and upon completion in 2008
26 Tornado82 : None of that traffic is going enough to one specific European city (or even just Europe for that matter) to make T/A from IND worth while. I don't kn
27 Indy : The worst part of the entire travel experience is dealing with international arrivals at places like PHL, ATL, ORD and DTW. You don't have the problem
28 Fedexexpress : I agree Indy, you cant convence me that we don't have enough demand for a transatlantic flight somewhere in Europe for a connection overseas instead o
29 MAH4546 : There are plenty of US cities with larger markets to Europe than IND that do not have non-stop service to Europe - Fort Lauderdale, New Orleans, St.
30 Indy : Its the arrivals nightmare in places like ORD, ATL and DTW that will make nonstop travel to the cities you listed more appealing in the next 10 years
31 ATAIndy : I recently read in the Star that passengers come from Ohio, Kentucky, Michigan, and Illinois because of the cheaper fares at IND. So who is the winner
32 MAH4546 : Very true, but the airlines don't care. Unless you are looking at a drastic problem of handling passengers at immigration, which is unlikely, they co
33 Fedexexpress : I think the City/ Airport / pax all win. IND pulls from 5 states total, but yet we dont have enough demand for INTERNATIONAL SERVICE!!!!!! LOL amazin
34 MAH4546 : Yeah, so? An airline wouldn't make money filling a plane on bargain fares.
35 Post contains images ATAIndy : I totally agree We should get AMS service on NW or something. I think our chances will be better once we get the new terminal though.
36 SRT75 : 1) I've never flown it, but do pax have a better experience flying AA NRT-SJC than say NRT-LAX or SFO? That is a small market with a somewhat unusual
37 Indy : This is actually an excellent point. Something that I have overlooked when it comes to providing the service. Considering the mess the old IND is rig
38 LambertMan : AA used to do much better on SJC-NRT that it does today, but its still hanging around. The reason why that flight is around in the first place is SJC
39 Tornado82 : I went to Valparaiso, and you couldn't pay me all the money in the world to drive to IND from there, I-65 sucks. And let's not forget that Lake and P
40 MAH4546 : KLM and NW interchange equipment, it doesn't matter who flies it, they share all revenue. Subbing a KL 763 for a NW 332 is no different than subbing
41 Tornado82 : Exactly!
42 Indy : That probably isn't the best example. PHL already great European coverage with US. Why take a flight that requires a connection when you can just get
43 MAH4546 : Actually, it is a good example. When Northwest/KLM launched this service in 1998, PHL didn't have nearly half the service they currently do. They did
44 MAH4546 : It is the reverse - CSA's used to be the standard, now MSAs are. The census rid of CSAs in 2004. There is only one officially used count now, MSA, an
45 Indy : Just out of curiosity what did they have in the form of European service? And what other major airports are within lets say a 2 hour drive? Also what
46 Indy : I believe that is incorrect. The MSA used to be the standard and the CSA became the new standard. That was brought to my attention in a discussion ab
47 Post contains links MAH4546 : It is definitley the reverse. You can read all about it here... http://www.proximityone.com/metros2003.htm Right near the bottom: There is no longer
48 Post contains images Tornado82 : So is the Lehigh Valley... you can get your Transatlantic, with a stop in ABE, before going across the pond. Hooters air already does ABE-GYY-LAS, so
49 Post contains links Indy : In the link you sent it has... "Maps located on the Metros main page show the U.S. by 2003 MSA by population percent change between 4/1/2000 and 7/1/2
50 Post contains images Indy : I've never tried the Valpo drive from I-65. Only tried it ONCE on Highway 31. I hated the drive. Swore I'd never go back. And I didn't BTW... Fort Wa
51 Post contains links MAH4546 : Indy, CSA's are still used, definitley. Though they are no longer officially counted by the US Census, who have standardized into just MSAs. The state
52 Indy : Personally I thought the CSA concept was mostly nonsense and left open greatly to interpretation and manipulation. The MSA concept to me makes more se
53 MAH4546 : Definitley. CSA was too vague, and not standarizing on one type of mesurement made things just confusing.
54 HZ747300 : First, I think it is silly to think that the the international student population could drive service. My example, is PHX--a beautiful city in the Sou
55 GEnx : Don't know if it's been mentioned in this thread, but FL is doing very well in IND. Loads are apparently very high and AirTran must like what they see
56 Indy : Here is an example that uses two airlines with hubs at the same airport. The route is IND to MCO. On FL I can do the nonstop trip with taxes for $193.
57 Indy : I think NW's MCO route is taking a beating. They are damn near giving the seats away.
58 Post contains images Tornado82 : Valpo via 31 to 30 from Indy would have to SUCK. You have my condolences for trying that route. Valpo itself is a nice town, with a great school, but
59 Indy : I had never been to Valpo before. I was flying blind. The City of Indianapolis itself isn't growing fast. Its the entire metro area thats going crazy
60 Tornado82 : Yeah the design there is ridiculous. It took me 15 minutes to get from 465 to the departures drop off when my g/f dropped me off on Memorial Day beca
61 MAH4546 : You are totally forgetting one thing: who says Delta wants those customers? Indianapolis-Orlando is a low yield market. Why would Delta want to fill
62 Tornado82 : MCO/SFB to ANYWHERE is a low-yield market. It's a vacation town, plain and simple. Likewise for LAS in most instances. And to think that DL serves alo
63 Indy : It doesn't matter where you fly from here. When you fly with DL you are going to a hub. Don't think yield matters to them. At least not from some mar
64 MAH4546 : Of course it does. Delta doesn't care about the yield of an IND-ATL passenger unless they are flying between IND and ATL. What matters is the yield b
65 Indy : When you connect you reduce your yield. You just can't compete with nonstop service.
66 A330323X : At the beginning of 1998, US served PHL-CDG/FCO/FRA/MAD/MUC. US started PHL-LGW/AMS in April 1998. By the end of the year, they were offering 8 fligh
67 Indy : Thanks A330323X.... That is pretty good European service. Its not like NW walked into a city with no service and couldn't make it work.
68 Post contains links Indy : In a Star News report issued today it shows IND has served 4.34 million passengers through the first half of the year which is 11% ahead of last year'
69 Burnsie28 : Your right, full flights to actually most of the destination, thats surely not doing well. Denver fares are not cheap, doesnt matter who flies it, lo
70 PanAm330 : Northwest does not fly JFK-AMS non-stop anymore; KLM does.
71 Fedexexpress : NWA needs to fly IND - AMS!!!!
72 Post contains images Indy : lol... easy on the caffeine there As much as I hate connecting in places like ORD on returning from an international flight I'm not sure i'm ready to
73 Fedexexpress : When it opens do you think we will even get a international flight at all to even use the damn thing???
74 Indy : It will be used for sure at race time when those charters come in. No longer will they have to go to that little building across from the A concourse.
75 Mainliner : Personally, I noticed fares on IND-LAX getting higher after Northwest began to establish a presence. I used Northwest for most of my flights home beca
76 Indy : Not sure what the issue is. I just checked NWA.com and IND to LAX for Aug 20th & 27th is $223.40 round trip. Not bad for a 4 hour flight.
77 SRT75 : As stated a million times, full flight DOES NOT necessarily mean that a flight is profitable. I think the operative word is USED to do JFK, EWR, and
78 Scamp : I'm inclined to believe that the only chance IND will ever have getting scheduled transatlantic service would be if a legacy carrier were to make it a
79 Tornado82 : With those fares... it would be surprising if it was profitable.
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