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5/19 WSJ "Boeing Lobbies Carriers To Order Big 747  
User currently offlineTWFirst From Vatican City, joined Apr 2000, 6346 posts, RR: 52
Posted (14 years 1 month 3 weeks 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 2271 times:

From today's (5/19) Wall Street Journal:

By Jeff Cole
Staff Reporter of The Wall Street Journal

SEATTLE - Boeing Co. Chairman Phil Condit urged some airlines to order bigger planned versions of the 747 jumbo jet, shortly before the board of rival Airbus Industrie is expected to decide whether to formally offer a new 550-seat plane, according to executives familiar with the development.

Mr. Condit's personal pitch was made via letters, some of which were dated May 16, to chief executives of at least six carriers that could order the European consortium's new-design Airbus A-3XX jet. His action reflects an expanding counter-campaign by Boeing, to promote planned "747-X" variants that would increase the size of the U.S. manufacturer's biggest plane.

The latest salvos by Boeing highlight an unusually high-stakes showdown in commerical-jet manufacturing. Each producer has yet to officially commit to price, performance and delivery-date specifics for the big jets, and each still must commit seperately to proceed with production.

Mr. Condit's appeal - to carriers including Singapore Airlines, Cathay Pacific Airways, Lufthansa of Germany, British Airways, Air France and Cargolux International Airlines of Luxembourg - says the bigger 747s "will offer better economics than any other airplane being offered by our competitor," according to executives directly familiar with the letters. Boeing appears to be getting more serious about producing the planes. Mr Condit told the carriers in the letters that "we can present you with a proposal and a business offer signifying Boeing's commitment."

A Boeing spokeswoman said letters to customers are part of "the normal course of business."

The advanced Airbus plane, which has drawn serious interst from carriers such as Singapore Airlines and Emirates Airlines, would fill the final void in the consortium's line-up of jet sizes. Airbus as yet offers no plane that matiches the 400-seat capacity of the existing 747-400. Developed at a cost of at least $12 billion, versions of the four-engine A-3XX would seat 550 to 650 passengers, or would carry cargo. Deliveries would begin in late 2005.

The Airbus supervisory board has slated a session to study letters of interest form airlines, before deciding whether to commit to the tentative offers made to carriers. Airbus seeks at least 50 orders from five carriers to launch the A-3XX. Airbus officials say they need the plane to compete longer-term with Boeing and the A-3XX is needed for routes between big hub airports. Boeing sees some added demand for giant jets, but it is betting on greater demand for somewhat smaller planes that can bypass hubs.

Boeing donimates jumbo-jet sales with its four-engine 747-400.

----------------------------------------------


An unexamined life isn't worth living.
17 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineCX747 From United States of America, joined May 1999, 4453 posts, RR: 5
Reply 1, posted (14 years 1 month 3 weeks 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 2029 times:

For SIA and others to order the 747X would definately be a tremedous blow to the A3XX. I remember a while back insiders in the industry whispering that Boeing was indeed building a more efficient 747X that would beat the A3XX. Tis is definately getting interesting.


"History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or timid." D. Eisenhower
User currently offlineNavion From United States of America, joined May 1999, 1010 posts, RR: 1
Reply 2, posted (14 years 1 month 3 weeks 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 2015 times:

I have no doubt Boeing can do it if they try. Once again the key is the development costs being negligible compared to a new design. Boeing also was discussing their 747XF in Aviation Week this past issue and they discussed how it will probably be a better freighter than the A3XXF due to 1) Nose loading door, 2) no new equipment needed (3rd floor cargo space on A3XX requires hundreds of thousands of dollars of new loading equipment), and 3) the ability to carry outsize cargo which the A3XXF cannot due to it's lower main deck ceiling (due to the 2nd floor) which cannot be removed.

User currently offlineNavion From United States of America, joined May 1999, 1010 posts, RR: 1
Reply 3, posted (14 years 1 month 3 weeks 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 2010 times:

My post above was predicated on the 747XF "stretch".

User currently offlineBoeing747-400 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 4, posted (14 years 1 month 3 weeks 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 2013 times:

I agree with CX747 and navion. I know Boeing could easily do it if they try. I think that the sell of the 747X will be a major blow to the A3XX as well CX747. I'm going for Boeing!

User currently offlineDeltaAir From United States of America, joined May 1999, 1094 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (14 years 1 month 3 weeks 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 1971 times:

If anyone would like them, I can probably scan a few things to send. The new 747 is named the 747-500LR and the 747-500EC. These were both names to the aircraft a year ago when Boeing was weeks from launching the new plane. Basically the new plane is sleeker, faster, and bigger. The book stated that it had a range of around 16,000-18,000 nm and a top speed of Mach .96 with the new GP7200 engines. This was when the aircraft was in the final "rough" draft stage, so some of this probably changed. The LR stands for long range and the EC stands for extended capacity.

User currently offlineNa From Germany, joined Dec 1999, 10594 posts, RR: 10
Reply 6, posted (14 years 1 month 3 weeks 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 1932 times:

Was there ever such a serious fight between the worlds two leading aircraft manufacturers?

That the B747 basic design is capable enough to be developed into a true A3XX (-100) competitor can not be a surprise to everyone who has followed the history of the most successful civil aircraft ever.

DeltaAir, it would really be nice if you would scan your pictures of the 747NG-model or scetch.


User currently offlineUdo From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (14 years 1 month 3 weeks 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 1895 times:

As usual many of you are quite confident. B747X better than A3XX? No problem, it's as easy as eating a Burger...haha
Let's wait and see. There is a difference between talking and doing. It won't be as easy as many of you think. The A3XX doesn't exist yet, but some guys are already talking of beating it. How come? Working as a spy in Toulouse? Being a time traveller? Or talking shit? Hmmm...

Regards
Udo


User currently offlineNa From Germany, joined Dec 1999, 10594 posts, RR: 10
Reply 8, posted (14 years 1 month 3 weeks 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 1882 times:

Hi Udo,

I fully agreed with you on the A3XX-delay-topic, but here I have something to defend Boeing, even if Condit´s letter sounds like looking into the crystal-ball, sounds like Boys talk: "My toy will be better than yours".

1.Boeing and Airbus are capable of building aircraft of the same quality level.
2.An aircraft basically is a tube with wings and engines on. What counts most for an econonmical brilliant performance are the right engines and the design of the wings.
3.The new 747-generation will have brandnew engines and a partly new-designed wing, a new cockpit and most likely a new interior design.
4.I have the impression that many Airlines seem to look more after an aircraft in the 450-500pax-league than after an even bigger one.
5.And, yes, I´m pretty sure Boeing as a spy in Toulouse (and vice versa of course)

Thats why I think Boeings offer will be a good A3XX-competitor for the first 5 years of competition.
After 2010, with a far higher air-traffic than now, with bigger and more advanced A3XX-versions on the market the scenario might look different, though.

The only thing that nobody seems to have mentioned before on this forum is what the reality, the shear impression, the PR, novelty and size of the A3XX will cause in the public.




User currently offlineUdo From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 9, posted (14 years 1 month 3 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 1873 times:

Ok, Na, I agree with you. Of course Boeing has the ability of competing in some way with the A3XX. But I just don't like people saying: No problem, whatever Airbus brings out, we beat it up. That's bull.

I agree on the PR issue. A completely new design, in that size, just causes much more interest in the public. Who knows how much airlines value that point?

Regards
Udo


User currently offlineAviationMaster From Switzerland, joined Oct 1999, 2477 posts, RR: 35
Reply 10, posted (14 years 1 month 3 weeks 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 1871 times:

I agree with u Udo.....wait and observe the fight when the A3XX exist....but i saw on CNBC Asia that the A3XX is flying 4 real..it was not a simulation...maybe Airbus have one of it 4 improving! And i doubt that Boeing or Aibus annouced the Double deckers first?!

 


User currently offlineAvion From Bouvet Island, joined May 1999, 2205 posts, RR: 7
Reply 11, posted (14 years 1 month 3 weeks 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 1865 times:



CX747 wrote:
-------------------------------
For SIA and others to order the 747X would definately be a tremedous blow to the A3XX. I remember a while back insiders in the industry whispering that Boeing was indeed building a more efficient 747X that would beat the A3XX. Tis is definately getting interesting.


I remember an insider whispering that airbus has already secured 7 million orders for the A3XX.

Oh come on, we only talk about facts and not about personal wishes.

Avion


User currently offlineUdo From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 12, posted (14 years 1 month 3 weeks 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 1866 times:

Why should SIA order any B747X at all? They already explained they will order the A3XX. A blow for Boeing, ha?

Regards
Udo


User currently offlineHamlet69 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 2725 posts, RR: 58
Reply 13, posted (14 years 1 month 3 weeks 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 1843 times:

I honestly have no idea what's going to happen. I believe Boeing will probably wait with the 747X until the A3XX is launched, then try their hand at beating its operating costs. But Udo, one comment; if we're going to stick to facts, check you're sources. Airbus was the one to announce that SQ wants 10 A3XX. All SQ has said is that they are 'in talks' with Airbus about the program. I'm not saying its not true, I'm just saying, let's wait for an official announcement.

Hamlet69



Honor the warriors, not the war.
User currently offlineSabenapilot From Belgium, joined Feb 2000, 2714 posts, RR: 47
Reply 14, posted (14 years 1 month 3 weeks 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 1823 times:

I think the A3XX will be built, the B747-500 will be built, and both can make a profit!
-) Airbus because it took Boeings monopoly away, thus forcing Boeing to raise prices for its other planes. That way the Airbus planes are even more attractive to customers. And although the A3XX might be loosing money, the global family would benifit from its introduction!
-) Boeing because at least they can continue to sell large jets, thus securing a part of their share in this segment at a relatively low cost.


User currently offlineRobin27 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 15, posted (14 years 1 month 3 weeks 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 1811 times:

Quote by NA

'After 2010, with a far higher air-traffic than now, with bigger and more advanced A3XX-versions on the market the scenario might look different, though.'

Quite correct. The 747X will be a reworked 747. The A3XX will be a new design. Assuming the super jumbos are a success, and traffic grows as some people are predicting, at some point Boeing will need to design a totally new aircraft. The Airbus will have stretch potential designed into it.

When the 747 was first designed, did Boeing ever see the potential for a larger aircraft? You can bet Airbus have learned the lessons of history and will be designing future growth into the A3XX.

All the discussion on this forum seems to be about today. There has been hardly any talk of the future. Are we all shortsighted?



User currently offlineSv11 From United States of America, joined May 1999, 161 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (14 years 1 month 3 weeks 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 1803 times:

If Airbus launches the A3XX, BA will probably launch 747-500/600. The -500/600 probably would not cost much to develop and have lower purchase price than A3XX and more commonality with the 747-400. If the market really takes off, then BA might do an all new design.

User currently offlineWingman From Seychelles, joined May 1999, 2185 posts, RR: 5
Reply 17, posted (14 years 1 month 3 weeks 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 1787 times:

This is all about timing and it is very hard for anyone to time the ups and downs of demand 10-20 years out. Air traffic growth in Asia has been growing quickly and steadily for 30 years nows, yet the recent recession created a serious order slump. Asia will have more recessions down the road as will the US and Europe. I'm sure Airbus and its potential A3XX customers must be considering the possibility of taking 10-20 A3XXs in 2006-2007 right as a major downturn hits. It really takes more nerve than anyone on this Forum knows to make such a decision.

Boeing, on the other hand, finally seems to have an edge in that the 745 designes will cost about 1/4-1/3 the A3XX. If they offered similar economics and the 745s were offered for $20-40 million less/unit, this would be the conservative's choice. You guys should check the Reuters byline from the weekend on this topic. It quoted many aviation analysts who are just as unsure as we are here. Some put the A3XX cost at $20 billion. Think about that. Airbus will only make this move with the absolute guarantee that it will be bailed out if the projects "fails" (ie-sells less than 500 units over 10 years).



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