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ABX Purchases Delta Plane  
User currently offlineFLYiCRJ From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 55 posts, RR: 0
Posted (9 years 1 month 4 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 4232 times:

ABX Air said after Wednesday's closing bell that it has purchased a Boeing 767-200 from Delta Air Lines and entered into a new agreement with Delta's maintenance division. ABX anticipates placing the aircraft in service by March 2006. The deal calls for Delta to service ABX's 25 Boeing 767 aircraft on an exclusive basis for 10 years. Wilmington, Ohio-based ABX ia a cargo airline with a fleet of 115 aircraft.

Thats cool....I really enjoy seeing Airborne Express planes....I miss the ABX DC-8's at EWR  worried 

25 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineTornado82 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (9 years 1 month 4 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 4102 times:

Quoting FLYiCRJ (Thread starter):
I really enjoy seeing Airborne Express planes....I miss the ABX DC-8's at EWR

I hear a few (but not DC8's) of theirs every night around 3-5am if I sleep with my windows open. I'm sure there are NIMBY people who BWM about it, but to me it's music to my ears.  Smile

Does that 115 aircraft include DHL, or how does that alliance work. I know there is some kind of Airborne/DHL alliance, but I'm not sure of the specifics. If you or anyone knows, info would be appreciated just for curiosity's sake. Thanks.


User currently offlineWjcandee From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 5194 posts, RR: 22
Reply 2, posted (9 years 1 month 4 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 4044 times:

Quoting Tornado82 (Reply 1):
Does that 115 aircraft include DHL, or how does that alliance work. I know there is some kind of Airborne/DHL alliance, but I'm not sure of the specifics. If you or anyone knows, info would be appreciated just for curiosity's sake. Thanks.

There was actually a thread on this not too long ago. In a nutshell. DHL had a meager domestic US network until a few years ago. It had a "US-owned" airline that serviced that network called DHL Airways. To really expand in the US Domestic market, DHL bought number-3 US package carrier Airborne Express. Airborne, a domestic company, had a wholly-owned airline that serviced its air network. DHL Airways hubbed in CVG. Airborne hubbed at ILN.

DHL had 2 problems: overlap of domestic air routes; and the fact that it couldn't own Airborne if Airborne owned an airline, because a German company can't own a US airline, even indirectly like that. So... DHL had Airborne spin off its airline into a publicly-held company called ABX Air, and had its DHL Airline sold to a group of investors including John Dasburg, formerly of Northwest. That company is now privately-held, and goes by the name of AStar Air Cargo, so there isn't anywhere near as much public info about it as there is about ABX Air, which must file SEC reports. Each airline company competes for DHL's air business. The 115 planes is just ABX Air; it does not include AStar.

That left DHL with two airlines contracting to it, and 2 hubs. It decided to consolidate the whole thing at ILN, at the same time opening a variety of regional hubs for ground operations. The regional ground sorting hubs are run by ABX Air. As of today, there are still hubs at CVG and ILN, but they are slowly consolidating, and you are seeing ABX Air flights at CVG and DHL Airways flights at ILN. The fleet of ABX Air is being slimmed down, losing a number of DC8s and DC9s. I don't know what's happening to the DHL Airways (AStar) fleet. ABX Air flies 767-200s, DC8s (not with the new CFM engines) and DC9s. AStar flies A300s, DC8s (with CFM engines) and 727s. ABX has Cat III capability at ILN, and the 767s have CATIII equipment on board and the 767 crews are trained to CATIII now. The rest of ABX Air's fleet is CATII. AStar is not CATII, but is working on it. Apparently there are lots of debates about all the procedures (who should fly, is it coupled and to where, is it hand-flown?, etc.) at AStar. An interesting lesson in how each airline creates its own procedures to fit its culture; a layman would just assume that they'd adopt the ABX Air procedures, equipment, etc., but NOOOOOOOO. That ain't how its done.

I found it amazing and fascinating that ABX Air is contracting the 767 maintenance to Delta. ABX Air has its own maintenance and engineering department. From its web site: "With more than 20 years of airline maintenance experience, ABX Air offers extensive services in heavy maintenance, repair, and overhaul of B767, DC8 and DC9 aircraft. As a certified FAA 145 repair station, our facility and maintenance team can provide a one-stop, total solution from complete overhaul to avionics installations to extensive structural repair. In addition we have a full-service engineering department and comprehensive documentation capabilities." So I don't get it...


Best,

Bill

[Edited 2005-08-04 07:10:03]

[Edited 2005-08-04 07:11:07]

User currently offlineWarszawa From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 727 posts, RR: 6
Reply 3, posted (9 years 1 month 4 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 4011 times:

Great information William (along with the last DHL thread). Added you to my RR list  Wink

Quoting Wjcandee (Reply 2):
There was actually a thread on this not to long ago.

Yep! Heres the thread:

DHL 707 In Detroit? (by Nwafflyer Jul 23 2005 in Civil Aviation)



Flying a plane is no diff. from riding a bicycle. Its just a lot harder to put baseball cards in the spokes. -'Airplane'
User currently offlineTazpilot From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 7 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (9 years 1 month 4 weeks 1 day ago) and read 3908 times:

ABX contracts with Delta for the GE CF6-80A/A2 engines on for their ex-ANA 767 fleet (24). They have a similar contract with Air Canada on their P&W JT9D powered ex-TWA (5) 767's also.

Most of the other routine maintenance ("A" checks) on the fleet is performed in house. Avborne in MIA gets some heavy checks, but it is rumored to be shifting more checks in house in the future and offering MRO work to other customers.


User currently offlineDAL767400ER From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 5, posted (9 years 1 month 4 weeks 1 day ago) and read 3895 times:

That's good news, finally some desperately needed money for DL again, not to mention that TechOps still actually insources work, instead of only outsourcing.
Also I'm confident that this won't be the last 762 that ABX buys from Delta  Wink .


User currently offlineFlyGuyClt From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 537 posts, RR: 8
Reply 6, posted (9 years 1 month 4 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 3878 times:

It seems that the Delta management is getting on the ball of using their assets to the best of their ability. Hhmm, outsourcing the maintenance to a company with a great maintenance reputation. Now that is smart business. Since somethings among the legacy airlines at the moment are heated around outsourcing, why not use the experience to get more business for your maintenance team? Sounds logical, doesn't it?

Safe Flying  Smile



Florida Express, Braniff II and ......
User currently offlineDALMD88 From United States of America, joined Jul 2000, 2557 posts, RR: 14
Reply 7, posted (9 years 1 month 4 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 3839 times:

The sale of the airplane is actually old news. We delivered it almost two weeks ago. Ship 104 was retired from our fleet back in May I think. We have been working on it on and off to gut the interior and do work that ABX requested. There was a rumor we would do the cargo conversion, but I doubt it. We don't have any of the STCs needed. No word on how many other 767-200 that ABX will take.

User currently offlinePadcrasher From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 8, posted (9 years 1 month 4 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 3739 times:

What's a used 200 worth? 8 Million?

User currently offlineWjcandee From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 5194 posts, RR: 22
Reply 9, posted (9 years 1 month 4 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 3568 times:

Quoting Warszawa (Reply 3):
Added you to my RR list

Thank you. I take that as an enormous compliment!!
--Bill


User currently offlineDeltaMIA From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 1672 posts, RR: 17
Reply 10, posted (9 years 1 month 4 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 3550 times:

Quoting Padcrasher (Reply 8):
What's a used 200 worth? 8 Million?

I would imagine it is a fleet. I would also imagine the contract is worth more to DL than the plane as long as they pay to transfer the title and maintain a nice long maintenance contract DL is happy.



It's a big building with patients, but that's not important right now.
User currently offlineDanimarroquin From Colombia, joined Jan 2005, 449 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (9 years 1 month 4 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 3524 times:

How many DC-8 ABX has left and when is the retirement going to be?

User currently offlineWjcandee From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 5194 posts, RR: 22
Reply 12, posted (9 years 1 month 4 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 3504 times:

Quoting FlyGuyClt (Reply 6):
It seems that the Delta management is getting on the ball of using their assets to the best of their ability

True. The announcement makes sense to me now in that it is an extension of an existing agreement that has been in place for 7 years, as pertains to the GE engines. ABX's press release has more detail: Delta does the maintenance on a Power-By-The-Hour basis (just as it does, I believe, for World Airways on their MD11s). The real "leverage" here is the size of the DL 767 airframe and engine fleet, and DL's enormous amount of experience with them. Because of the fleet size, DL can be kind of like a group health insurer: the risks of any particular component failing are by now pretty well statistically determinable, and DL will likely meet those statistics because of its large engine fleet, so DL can therefore offer ABX a fine fixed-price to maintain its engines, and ABX can have total predictability as to what its engine maintenance will cost per hour for ten years. A win-win situation.

Same thing with the 767 APUs that DL maintains for ABX. So...ABX isn't really outsourcing anything that it doesn't already outsource. I'm sure that it will continue to do in-house what it already does in-house while taking advantage of the economies of scale of DL's enormous 767 fleet by giving them its 767 engine and APU work.

I also found the following in ABX's 10K, which better explains what they can do in-house. Looks like their heavy airframe maintenance is limited to DC9s, but they do line maint on all their a/c. "Our marketable capabilities include the implementation of terrain awareness warning systems (“TAWS”)
and collision avoidance systems (“TCAS”) and heavy maintenance for McDonnell Douglas DC-9 (“DC-9”)
aircraft. We have developed a turnkey approach for installing FAA certified Reduced Vertical Separation
Minima (“RVSM”) equipment in DC-9 and McDonnell Douglas DC-8 (“DC-8”) aircraft and signed an exclusive
distribution agreement to sell the related hardware. (RVSM is designed to reduce air traffic congestion by
permitting aircraft to fly closer together vertically above certain altitudes.) We perform airframe overhauls on
DC-9 aircraft and line maintenance on DC-8, DC-9 and Boeing 767 aircraft. We refurbish in-house,
approximately 60% of the airframe components for our DC-8 and DC-9 aircraft and the wheels and brakes for
our DC-8, DC-9 and Boeing 767 aircraft types. We can also perform intermediate repairs on the engines for DC-
8 aircraft and the engines and auxiliary power units for DC-9 aircraft. Additionally, we update aircraft manuals
for customers in conjunction with the modification of aircraft from passenger to cargo configuration."

Quoting Danimarroquin (Reply 11):
How many DC-8 ABX has left and when is the retirement going to be?

According to ABX Air's latest 10Q filing with the SEC, they are down to 15 DC8s as of March 31, 2005. They say in their earlier 10K that "Future DC-8 aircraft retirements will be determined based on ACMI requirements, capacity
requirements, charter service demand and the timing of placing future Boeing 767 aircraft into service."


User currently offlineDHLSAN From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 136 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (9 years 1 month 2 weeks 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 3255 times:

Latest rumor is that once the ILN conversion is complete, DHL airways will no longer exist since ABX has the bigger fleet and can handle the cargo. The DHL fleet would only be used for intl while ABX will handle all domestic freight flights. Look for ABX to obtain some new aircraft (used) over the next few months, mainly 767's.


Yellow?
User currently offlineACYWG From Canada, joined Feb 2005, 265 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (9 years 1 month 2 weeks 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 3242 times:

Quoting FLYiCRJ (Thread starter):
The deal calls for Delta to service ABX's 25 Boeing 767 aircraft on an exclusive basis for 10 years.

Correct me here, but whats the deal with Delta Servicing ABX's 767's when Delta's 767's are serviced by AC...why would Delta have its planes serviced by someone else and then service someone elses planes that are almost exactly the same as the ones it itself has!


User currently offlineDl_mech From United States of America, joined Feb 2000, 1958 posts, RR: 9
Reply 15, posted (9 years 1 month 2 weeks 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 3190 times:

ACTS (AC) only overhauls Delta's 767's (AKA D-Check). Delta still does non-routine and other letter checks to its own 767's. I presume that this work will be done on the ABX aircraft as well.


This plane is built to withstand anything... except a bad pilot.
User currently offlineChiGB1973 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 1616 posts, RR: 1
Reply 16, posted (9 years 1 month 2 weeks 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 3158 times:

Quoting Wjcandee (Reply 2):
ABX Air flies 767-200s, DC8s (not with the new CFM engines) and DC9s. AStar flies A300s, DC8s (with CFM engines) and 727s

What about the 757-200s? Are they actually owned by DHL. They are foreign registered.

M


User currently offlineDALMD88 From United States of America, joined Jul 2000, 2557 posts, RR: 14
Reply 17, posted (9 years 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 3088 times:

Quoting ACYWG (Reply 14):
Correct me here, but whats the deal with Delta Servicing ABX's 767's when Delta's 767's are serviced by AC...why would Delta have its planes serviced by someone else and then service someone elses planes that are almost exactly the same as the ones it itself has

The deal is only for engines and apu. Someone else will be doing the airframe work. We used to do 767 airframe work for ABX, but we lost that contract years ago.


User currently offlineWjcandee From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 5194 posts, RR: 22
Reply 18, posted (9 years 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 2994 times:

Quoting DHLSAN (Reply 13):
Latest rumor is that once the ILN conversion is complete, DHL airways will no longer exist since ABX has the bigger fleet and can handle the cargo. The DHL fleet would only be used for intl while ABX will handle all domestic freight flights

Package destroyer:

Pretty interesting, if true, but I don't know why that would be. "DHL Airways" is now AStar Air Cargo and is owned by a group of private investors. Their contract with DHL was mentioned in the Administrative Law Judge's decision as posted on the AStar web site. My recollection is that there is an enormous breakup fee in that contract that would have to be paid if DHL tried something like this with AStar. There would also be a huge amount of litigation over it, as it would effectively destroy AStar and ruin its investors. Besides, if they were going to go exclusively with ABX Air, it wouldn't make sense that they are forcing ABX to park like a zillion aircraft. Rather, it seems like they are merging the two fleets, as both are now flying to each other's hubs.

Anything is possible, and the rumor may be true, but it isn't based on an accurate portrayal of the facts. "ABX has a bigger fleet" has never driven any decision by DHL. "Exclusively for international" also doesn't make sense, as DHL Airways (now AStar Air Cargo) is a domestic carrier. There are other international DHL carriers that have nothing to do with AStar.

Best,

Bill


User currently offlineWhalePilot From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 91 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (9 years 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 2896 times:

Quoting DHLSAN (Reply 13):
Latest rumor is that once the ILN conversion is complete, DHL airways will no longer exist since ABX has the bigger fleet and can handle the cargo. The DHL fleet would only be used for intl while ABX will handle all domestic freight flights

Highly unlikely as DHL announced this week that Astar is NOT getting back the JFK-BRU-BAH route that it lost recently. DHL had decided to permanently award the flying to Kalitta in a 747. Also DHL will never have just one contractor providing it's sole lift in the US because DHL would not have leverage on a single carrier like it has now with two carriers that it can pit against one another.


User currently offlinePositiverate From United States of America, joined May 2005, 1590 posts, RR: 8
Reply 20, posted (9 years 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 2829 times:

Quoting FLYiCRJ (Thread starter):
ABX Air said after Wednesday's closing bell that it has purchased a Boeing 767-200 from Delta Air Lines

Just so long as it isn't Ship 102...


User currently offlineDalmd88 From United States of America, joined Jul 2000, 2557 posts, RR: 14
Reply 21, posted (9 years 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 2820 times:

It could be ship 107. I think it gets pulled out of service on Sunday.

User currently offlineWjcandee From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 5194 posts, RR: 22
Reply 22, posted (9 years 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 2718 times:

Quoting Wjcandee (Reply 18):
Rather, it seems like they are merging the two fleets

I really probably should have said that they are going to use parts of each fleet. Not merging in the conventional sense, but taking parts of each to make a complete whole, with two providers to provide competition.


User currently offlineWjcandee From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 5194 posts, RR: 22
Reply 23, posted (9 years 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 2714 times:

Quoting WhalePilot (Reply 19):
Also DHL will never have just one contractor providing it's sole lift in the US because DHL would not have leverage on a single carrier like it has now with two carriers that it can pit against one another.

WhalePilot: I agree that having two competitors provides, well, a competitive advantage. However, if you look at ABX Air's contract, they have plenty of incentive to provide reliable, affordable service. A significant portion of their expected compensation is withheld if they don't meet certain targets for cost and timeliness, and they also have bonuses that they can earn if they meet certain specific targets.


User currently offlineDHLSAN From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 136 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (9 years 1 month 2 weeks 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 2554 times:

Quoting Wjcandee (Reply 18):
Package destroyer:

Pretty interesting, if true, but I don't know why that would be. "DHL Airways" is now AStar Air Cargo and is owned by a group of private investors. Their contract with DHL was mentioned in the Administrative Law Judge's decision as posted on the AStar web site. My recollection is that there is an enormous breakup fee in that contract that would have to be paid if DHL tried something like this with AStar. There would also be a huge amount of litigation over it, as it would effectively destroy AStar and ruin its investors. Besides, if they were going to go exclusively with ABX Air, it wouldn't make sense that they are forcing ABX to park like a zillion aircraft. Rather, it seems like they are merging the two fleets, as both are now flying to each other's hubs.

Anything is possible, and the rumor may be true, but it isn't based on an accurate portrayal of the facts. "ABX has a bigger fleet" has never driven any decision by DHL. "Exclusively for international" also doesn't make sense, as DHL Airways (now AStar Air Cargo) is a domestic carrier. There are other international DHL carriers that have nothing to do with AStar.

Best,

Bill

Just going on what we hear at the station. We are still serviced by 2 flights a day, 1 ABX and 1 DHL AStar. Once the move to ILN is complete we will only be serviced by 1 ABX 767. AStars AC may be used to move the freight to the intl gateways Like JFK and Miami, maybe that's where the international part of the rumor is at. We hear different things every week since DHL bought us out, some are true, some are not but the one thing that is true is that ABX can cover the route system, we don't need 2 AC to service most locations. Who knows, maybe AStar and ABX will merge? Just know that once the move to ILN is complete there will be extra AC that won't be needed.



Yellow?
User currently offlineDB777 From United States of America, joined Apr 2001, 885 posts, RR: 43
Reply 25, posted (9 years 1 month 2 weeks 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 2505 times:
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Here's a shot of N104DA at MIA a week or so ago:

http://www.pbase.com/airlinerphotos/image/47589872



Photographing aircraft since the Earth was flat and on Airliners.net since #338
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