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Hongkong - Seattle Non Stop  
User currently offlinePalladium From Indonesia, joined Apr 2005, 270 posts, RR: 0
Posted (9 years 2 months 4 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 10207 times:

hey guys... I was just wondering since Seattle is also one of the biggest city in western coast of United States, I wonder why there is no a non stop flight between Hongkong and Seattle.

I know EVA Air operates Taipei - Seattle.

SInce other big citis such as San Francisco - Los Angeles and Vancouver (canada) have direct flight to hongkong. I wonder why seattle doesn't have one?

is it the demand is low for this sector? or something else?

thanks....

I wonder if Cathay Pacific is thinking about open up Hongkong - Seattle routes, that would be nice.

39 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineTrvlr From United States of America, joined Feb 2000, 4430 posts, RR: 21
Reply 1, posted (9 years 2 months 4 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 10186 times:

United used to operate SEA-HKG awhile back...perhaps the 80s and early 90s.

If Northwest survives to see the introduction of the 787, perhaps you'll see SEA-HKG retun. Likewise, if Cathay Pacific buys the plane, SEA would be a likely new destination.

Aaron G.


User currently offlineWrighbrothers From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2005, 1875 posts, RR: 9
Reply 2, posted (9 years 2 months 4 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 10174 times:

Quoting Palladium (Thread starter):
is it the demand is low for this sector? or something else?

I think that is the main factor , Their are only 2 ( i think) European airlines that serve SEA , BA and SAS

Happy Flying !!  wave 



Always stand up for what is right, even if it means standing alone..
User currently offlineStevenUhl777 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 3, posted (9 years 2 months 4 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 10103 times:

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe YVR has a much stronger ex-pat Hong Kong community than we do. CX and AC operate the route, and it's a quick flight up there to connect. For those not wanting to go via YVR, they can fly there via NRT on NW, or go to SFO/LAX first and then on to HKG on UA.

UA used 747SP starting '83 to HKG. Not sure how long it lasted, though.


User currently offlineBaw716 From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 2028 posts, RR: 27
Reply 4, posted (9 years 2 months 4 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 10092 times:

Seattle does not have the demand for the market. There is also no carrier that can provide connection feed for it. Korean Air started service to Seoul from here because Delta can feed Seattle effectively from all points east and south.

Asiana continues to operate to SEL daily.

Northwest flies to Tokyo daily because they have forever and again, they can feed it from both MSP and DTW.

China Airlines has point to point service. EVA Air operates a EWR-SEA-TPE, so it is a split operation between EWR/SEA and TPE. EVA and CI are in the best position to provide good connections via TPE, HKG is about about an hour plus flight from TPE.

Finally, United operates one daily trip to NRT, which connects to all of its flights throughout the orient and to SE Asia.

With all that flying to the Far East, a nonstop SEA-HKG would pull passengers off those flights, not add any additional traffic. There is already sufficient service via LAX/SFO/YVR.

Since only United, Delta/Alaska/Northwest/American are large enough to provide sufficient feed for such a flight, realistically, it would be only United or Northwest who would add the service. Both had it and both failed.

What is more needed in the Seattle market right now is a United nonstop to London. BA has a monopoly on the route and because of that, the only three options to London are BA nonstop, or SK via CPH or NW via AMS. We need another London carrier to raise the competitive bar here. United shifted its route authority from Seattle to Chicago to operate a third London flight, which it is currently not using, so it could take that route authority and shift it back to Seattle, where it could add an additional flight and start rebuilding its presence here. Seattle is still in the top 10 cities they operate (no 8), it would not take much to build it back up to mini hub status to the Orient. We have the facilities and it would cut two hours off the travel time from the states to any point in Asia.

Just a thought.
baw716



David L. Lamb, fmr Area Mgr Alitalia SFO 1998-2002, fmr Regional Analyst SFO-UAL 1992-1998
User currently offlinePalladium From Indonesia, joined Apr 2005, 270 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (9 years 2 months 4 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 10077 times:

Hongkong is bigger than Taipei >< how can this sector be that low? I live in Seattle and there are a lot of Asian people live here.

Apart of that,.... I really want Hongkong - Seattle route soo badly hehe with this I can go back to my country easier ^^


User currently offlineFLY777UAL From United States of America, joined May 1999, 4512 posts, RR: 3
Reply 6, posted (9 years 2 months 4 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 10033 times:

Quoting StevenUhl777 (Reply 3):
UA used 747SP starting '83 to HKG. Not sure how long it lasted, though.

I was pretty sure United started the route with the DC-10-30, along with SEA-NRT and PDX-NRT. Matter of fact, I still have a pamphlet touting the Royal Pacific Service on these flights including a seat map of the DC-10, and a route map to/from SEA and PDX showing onward connections.

F L Y 7 7 7 U A L


User currently offlineUnited_Fan From United States of America, joined Nov 2000, 7508 posts, RR: 7
Reply 7, posted (9 years 2 months 4 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 9971 times:

StevenUhl777,UA didn't get the -SP's til '86.


'Empathy was yesterday...Today, you're wasting my Mother-F'ing time' - Heat.
User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 33087 posts, RR: 71
Reply 8, posted (9 years 2 months 4 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 9935 times:

Quoting Baw716 (Reply 4):
Asiana continues to operate to SEL daily.

Asiana is 3x a week, as is Korean Air. Their schedules don't cordinate, so on Saturdays there are two flights to Seoul, and on Fridays and Sundays there are none.

Quoting Baw716 (Reply 4):
China Airlines has point to point service. EVA Air operates a EWR-SEA-TPE, so it is a split operation between EWR/SEA and TPE.

China Airlines' flight is a split operation between IAH/SEA.

Northwest flew SEA-HKG in the mid-1990s, IIRC. Did not last long.



a.
User currently offlineChristao17 From Thailand, joined Apr 2005, 941 posts, RR: 8
Reply 9, posted (9 years 2 months 4 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 9913 times:

Quoting Palladium (Reply 5):
Hongkong is bigger than Taipei >< how can this sector be that low? I live in Seattle and there are a lot of Asian people live here.

Okay, just having a large Asian population doesn't necessarily translate into high demand for a nonstop to HKG. Especially since the larger population of people from Hong Kong live up in Vancouver. A lot of the Asians in Seattle are from Korea, Vietnam, and Taiwan (hence the Taipei flight - that, plus the high tech business between Seattle and Taiwan).

For folks in SEA, there are a lot of one-stop options to get to Hong Kong - most of which are through hubs so the connection is relatively short.



Keeping the "civil" in civil aviation...
User currently offlineBaw716 From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 2028 posts, RR: 27
Reply 10, posted (9 years 2 months 4 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 9899 times:

MAH4546,
I stand corrected, thank you.
baw716



David L. Lamb, fmr Area Mgr Alitalia SFO 1998-2002, fmr Regional Analyst SFO-UAL 1992-1998
User currently offlineStevenUhl777 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 11, posted (9 years 2 months 4 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 9861 times:

Quoting United_Fan (Reply 7):
StevenUhl777,UA didn't get the -SP's til '86

Yes...of course.  Wink My bad.

Quoting Baw716 (Reply 4):
United shifted its route authority from Seattle to Chicago to operate a third London flight, which it is currently not using,

No,that SEA-LHR slot went to SFO...to allow the 2nd nonstop from SFO (#954)

Re: ORD-LHR...UA operates *3* daily flights to/from LHR:

ORD-LHR
958 leaves 4:10pm
928 leaves 6:25pm
938 leaves 9:25pm

LHR-ORD
929 leaves 10:35am
949 leaves 12:40pm
959 leaves 3:40pm

UA won't bring a flight back to SEA...especially if they can make MORE MONEY on it from either SFO or ORD!!!


User currently offlineRwSEA From Netherlands, joined Jan 2005, 3110 posts, RR: 2
Reply 12, posted (9 years 2 months 4 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 9842 times:

I would think UA would have the best shot at restarting the route - they have some feed in SEA, and there are lots of loyal UA members in the area.

Also, UA now offers some connections beyong HKG that might increase the ridership.

Both UA and NW operated the SEA-HKG routes with the 747 - I think a 777 or 332 would see more success, or even a 787.

Also in Asia, NH is rumored to be interested in SEA-NGO and there are always the rumors about NW bringing back SEA-KIX.

I agree that we need another LHR flight - the BA flight is packed in the summer and in the past they have sometimes offered 2x daily. UA seemed to be interested in restarting SEA-LHR prior to 9/11. UA could also be successful with a daily SEA-FRA in the summer, going down to 3-4x weekly in the winter.

I'd also like to see UA start a SEA-HNL.


User currently offlineStevenUhl777 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 13, posted (9 years 2 months 4 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 9808 times:

Quoting RwSEA (Reply 12):
UA could also be successful with a daily SEA-FRA in the summer, going down to 3-4x weekly in the winter

Unlikely they'll do that, though...considering they can sell seats/earn revenue on the LH PDX-FRA flight. The PDX area has more business ties to Germany than SEA does, a la Nike and Adidas/Reebok, and Freightliner, among others.


User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 33087 posts, RR: 71
Reply 14, posted (9 years 2 months 4 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 9795 times:

Quoting Wrighbrothers (Reply 2):
I think that is the main factor , Their are only 2 ( i think) European airlines that serve SEA , BA and SAS

And the always forgotten about Aeroflot...thrice weekly to Moscow.

I've always found it interesting that Seattle has so little European service, yet it has non-stops to Moscow and Copenhagen, of all cities.



a.
User currently offlineDutchjet From Netherlands, joined Oct 2000, 7864 posts, RR: 57
Reply 15, posted (9 years 2 months 4 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 9643 times:

Regarding the SEA-HKG flights - I think that this city pair that could work, but with a reasonably sized aircraft.

UA flew the route first many years ago, SEA-Tokyo and SEA-Hong Kong were among UA's very first transpacific routes, even before the deal with PANAM whereby UA took over PA's pacific operations. UA was using SEA as its "Asian gateway" and flights from key US cities would arrive in SEA to connect to the Asian services. In consideration of approving the PA/UA Pacific deal, UA was forced to give up its authority on the SEA-Tokyo route (thats another story in itself), and when the SEA-Tokyo route was cancelled, SEA-Hong Kong also went. UA now had pacific routes out of LAX and SFO, so SEA was dropped as an Asian gateway city. (And, as mentoned, UA also later scrapped the SEA-LHR route that was flown for years and years by PA).

NW flew SEA-HKG with DC10s in the mid 1990s (1994 or 1995) - it was one plane service that originated/terminated in ORD I think. The flight was dropped for a couple of reasons - I dont think it ever did as well as NW had hoped, but this was around the time that NW was becoming very focused on building is DET and MSP hubs, and also around the time that NW became very focused on Japan and routing most (if not all) Asian flights via Japan. Remember, for many years SEA was a very important focus city for NW (I remember NW flying DC10s from SEA to SPO and NW's daily 747 from SEA to JFK) and its key gateway to Asia from the continental US.

SEA could probably support more international services to both Asia and Europe (I do not think that Vancouver is such a big factor)......its not happening because the hometown hub airline at SEA is Alaska. I am not being critical of AS, but they simply are not a longhaul airline thus they are not launching flights to Europe and Asia out of SEA. The legacy carriers are unlikely to launch longhaul services out of a nonhub city, thus SEA is dependent on foreign carriers for international services.

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 14):

And the always forgotten about Aeroflot...thrice weekly to Moscow.

I've always found it interesting that Seattle has so little European service, yet it has non-stops to Moscow and Copenhagen, of all cities.

Dont forget SEA-AMS with NW.


User currently offlineCOSPN From Northern Mariana Islands, joined Oct 2001, 1626 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (9 years 2 months 4 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 9609 times:

DID NW Serv HKG-SEA up till a few years ago ???

in Bruce Lee Movie he flew NW to HKG a Few Times this was in the Days before CX intl...


User currently offlinePDXtriple7 From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 695 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (9 years 2 months 4 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 9569 times:

Two points/ questions:

Quoting Baw716 (Reply 4):
EVA Air operates a EWR-SEA-TPE, so it is a split operation between EWR/SEA and TPE

Does EVA Air have rights to carry passengers only on the EWR-SEA sector? Do they?

Also, I would think a second LHR flight would be much more likely/ profitable than a HKG flight. I've flown BA SEA-LHR two summer in a row now, and both times the flights were oversold. I'm starting to wonder why a 777 isn't added or UA picking up the slack. I'd also be interested to know how many people from PDX connect to LHR in SEA and California (I can't figure out where to find that info). Additionally, perhaps PDX or SEA could see a Beijing flight in time for the 2008 Olympics. I would think that flight has a high likelihood, but I could be mistaken.


User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 33087 posts, RR: 71
Reply 18, posted (9 years 2 months 4 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 9567 times:

Quoting PDXtriple7 (Reply 17):

Does EVA Air have rights to carry passengers only on the EWR-SEA sector? Do they?

No, that is cabatoge. The US doesn't allow it to passenger airlines. A few years ago, Asiana got fined $750,000 because they were transporting passengers between Guam and the mainland US via Seoul.

Quoting PDXtriple7 (Reply 17):
Additionally, perhaps PDX or SEA could see a Beijing flight in time for the 2008 Olympics. I would think that flight has a high likelihood, but I could be mistaken.

No, they stand virtually no chance. With the limited entry of the US-China market, valuable US-China route authorities, the next of which will be available for March 2007, will not be awarded to Seattle, let alone Portland.



a.
User currently offlineCOSPN From Northern Mariana Islands, joined Oct 2001, 1626 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (9 years 2 months 4 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 9516 times:

No, that is cabatoge. The US doesn't allow it to passenger airlines. A few years ago, Asiana got fined $750,000 because they were transporting passengers between Guam and the mainland US via Seoul.

This was part of the Investigation of the KAL Crash in Guam..AC was Upgraded from Airbus to 747 carry a large Guam Team to Honolulu via Korea also a Violation of Cabotage...US Govt will allow if simular access is granted like PUS-SEL...for US carrier to fly PAX Domestic...


User currently offlineN754PR From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 20, posted (9 years 2 months 4 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 9425 times:

NW tried and failed so I doubt they will ever return. All they can do from Hong Kong in one NRT service!!

TALK OF THE DEVIL!!... CI 015 from Seattle just landed in Hong Kong due to another Typhoon in TPE  

[Edited 2005-08-05 03:23:14]

[Edited 2005-08-05 03:23:42]

User currently offlineHKGKaiTak From Australia, joined Jun 2005, 1050 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (9 years 2 months 4 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 9382 times:

Quoting StevenUhl777 (Reply 3):
UA used 747SP starting '83 to HKG. Not sure how long it lasted, though.

I remember flying UA SEA-HKG in 88 on the last leg of the family North American adventure. My first and only flight on a 747SP.



4 Engines 4 LongHaul
User currently offlineBaw716 From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 2028 posts, RR: 27
Reply 22, posted (9 years 2 months 4 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 9360 times:

The DC10 that United used to go to HKG was a DC10-30 they acquired from Canadian. They had it specially fitted with an extra tank for the route, because it was outside of the usual operational range of the aircraft.

In the beginning, United had no problem making HKG nonstop, because the flights were not full. However, as things ran on, United started to fill the flights to capacity and the first winter they started running into strong headwinds across the Pacific, they started running into problems. They started having to make operational stops at Okinawa. First they were occasional. Then they because rather routine. In the opposite direction, eastbound, HKG-SEA was nonstop all the time, no sweat, about 11 to 11.5 hours with a real strong tail wind.

When United bought Pan Am's Pacific routes in the late 80's, they substituted the DC-10 for the 747SP. That aircraft did much better for United, because it could take whatever the Pacific threw at it and it made it nonstop, every time. I flew it eastbound from HKG-SEA and we made it in 11 hr 12 min. A nice easy ride. A little turbulence over the dateline, but on the downhill leg over the Gulf of Alaska, it was clear sailing, beautiful weather and the grandeur of the Canadian Rockies as we approached Vancouver Island and on into Seattle.

At some point, the route started not being profitable for United. So they pulled it down. They kept Tokyo for some time, but then they eventually pulled it as well. This was also about the same time they pulled the SEA-LON route, which had been flown for many,many years by Pan Am, then taken over by United. So, United has removed all its internationaly flying from Seattle.

It has only been within the last few years that United has reinstated its service to Tokyo, with the advent of 777 flying across the Pacific. The route is doing quite well and will continue to do well. However, I don't foresee United placing an aircraft on SEA-HKG for some time.

For now, if we want HKG on United, its down to SFO and then back up here and over the pond.

baw716



David L. Lamb, fmr Area Mgr Alitalia SFO 1998-2002, fmr Regional Analyst SFO-UAL 1992-1998
User currently offlineSearpqx From Netherlands, joined Jun 2000, 4344 posts, RR: 10
Reply 23, posted (9 years 2 months 4 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 9288 times:

Quoting Baw716 (Reply 22):
At some point, the route started not being profitable for United. So they pulled it down. They kept Tokyo for some time, but then they eventually pulled it as well. This was also about the same time they pulled the SEA-LON route, which had been flown for many,many years by Pan Am, then taken over by United. So, United has removed all its internationaly flying from Seattle.

Slightly backwards order. As part of the purchase of PA's Pacific route system, UA was required to give up the SEA-NRT route. After a lengthy procedure, in which the DOT overturned the initial recommendation to give the route to AA, CO was awarded the route. UA had threatened that if they didn't have the draw of the NRT route, they wouldn't be able to sustain the HKG route. They actually did maintain the HKG route for awhile after NRT was transferred to CO, but they eventually moved the frequency to SFO.



"The two most common elements in the universe are Hydrogen and stupidity"
User currently offlineFLY777UAL From United States of America, joined May 1999, 4512 posts, RR: 3
Reply 24, posted (9 years 2 months 4 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 9188 times:

Quoting Baw716 (Reply 22):
It has only been within the last few years that United has reinstated its service to Tokyo, with the advent of 777 flying across the Pacific.

Actually, the route was started in the mid to late 90's with the 747-400 (not due to the advent of 777 Pacific flying).

F L Y 7 7 7 U A L


25 StevenUhl777 : That's right...I remember now seeing a DC-10-30 at N1 or N2 back in '83, and think it was headed for either NRT or HKG.
26 Suv : Took UA SEA-HKG back in the very early 80's. Remember very well. DC-10-10. Headwinds slowed us down. Had to divert to NGO to refuel. The good old days
27 Suv : Probably a typo...meant DC-10-30...fingers got ahead of the brain!
28 RyanAFAMSP : I was wondering if the two 747-222Bs that were delivered to United in (I think) 1987 were meant origininally for the SEA-HKG route. I know they ended
29 N200WN : Didn't Finnair operate a DC-10 to SEA years ago on a HEL-SEA-LAX route? Was SEA used just as a fuel stop or was there actually a market there?
30 ER757 : Seattle has a very large Scandanavian population, hence the SAS flights to CPH. Yep, they sure did.
31 2travel2know : I wonder how is the cargo demand between HKG and SEA. Maybe that demand could sustain a B747 Pax/Cargo 3-5 times per week if not daily.
32 Christao17 : Or connect through NRT and not backtrack at all.
33 Spark : I flew that DC10 in 1983. As I remember United had no clue how to operate long haul flights in Asia, especially regarding service. The flight from Hon
34 Hjulicher : Why does aeroflot fly to Seattle, wouldn't it be smarter to serve YVR instead. Is there really demand for this flight? There is already a flight from
35 RwSEA : The SVO-SEA flight has been around forever... if it ain't broke, don't fix it.
36 Stirling : What is "SPO"?
37 Dutchjet : Woops, sorry, Spokane, Washington, better known as GEG.......my error and apologies.
38 MAH4546 : Huge Russian community in Seattle, much larger than Vancouver's.
39 Post contains links Stirling : While Russian speakers may number more than Vancouver BC, I wouldn't call it "Huge". Large Russian communities are a common trait of the major metrop
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