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Northwest To Spend $107 Million In Strike Preps  
User currently onlineKarlB737 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 3105 posts, RR: 10
Posted (9 years 3 weeks 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 3305 times:

Courtesy: WCCO-TV - Video Included

http://wcco.com/topstories/local_story_218000603.html

19 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineDerik737 From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 333 posts, RR: 3
Reply 1, posted (9 years 3 weeks 5 days ago) and read 3287 times:

And what was the concession amount they wanted from the mechanics?

Unbelievable! If this doesn't convince you naysayers that the airline wants to bust the union at all costs, I don't know what will.


User currently offline1MillionFlyer From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (9 years 3 weeks 5 days ago) and read 3269 times:

This doesn't surprise me. When I was a CFO for a manufacturing company about 11 years ago a union tried to organize.

The Union (AFL-CIO) opened a tab at a local bar and the employees could go down there and drink and eat all they wanted (300 people!). they also harrassed employees at home if they did not sign the authorization cards needed for a vote.

The quality of work declined 12%, the absenteeism rate went up 15% and productivity plummeted because of the tense atmosphere.

When it was all over the union lost, but the company lost millions during the organization period. At the end of the year we were in the red and could not afford to do much of anything, employees got no raise, the customers were pissed off and the union people just shrugged their shoulders and walked away to ruin someone else's company.

It costs a lot of money on both sides to have union activity, in the case of the company, it can cause total financial ruin, for the union it just means they need to raise dues again.


User currently offlineMtnmanmakalu From Ireland, joined Nov 2004, 515 posts, RR: 3
Reply 3, posted (9 years 3 weeks 5 days ago) and read 3223 times:

Quoting Derik737 (Reply 1):
And what was the concession amount they wanted from the mechanics?

Unbelievable! If this doesn't convince you naysayers that the airline wants to bust the union at all costs, I don't know what will.

That's what they want- We got word from the F/A union that they want $143 million from the F/A's now on top of the mechanics and then I'm sure they will hit everybody else up- including the pilot's again... Amazing!!
They were only off $33 million with the mechanics, and now are spending $millions more than that to bust the unions!! It sure lets you know how they really feel about their employees- they couldn't give a s**t to work anything out with them- Great morale booster!!

mtnman  crazy 



I do, I don't, whatever.......
User currently offlineFlyGuyClt From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 537 posts, RR: 8
Reply 4, posted (9 years 3 weeks 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 3180 times:

What really amazed me is that in the 90's when the employees gave wages and work rules to the tune of some 1 billion dollars over 3 years was it ? The airline lost the same amount of money in 20 days in the form of a pilot strike in the late 90's. So, the average NWA worker took paycuts for some 3 years at that point. And that money was spent in 20 days in a wizzing match with the pilots. Does not sound like much respect for the dollar? Does it ? If I am wrong. Please correct me. I am a firm believer that things in the industry must change. Everyone is backed in a corner. But, if employees offer pay and other benefits for the benefit of the company. That company no matter whom it is, should have a moral obligation to respect that give back, and place it in the right direction to ensure long term success. After all, did CO not just buy 2 more 777's with the money saved from it's employees and have those employees from the groups that gave give backs at the signing of the order at Boeing? Respect is a missing ingredient so many times. Such a small token that goes along long way.



Safe Flying  

[Edited 2005-08-06 18:29:49]


Florida Express, Braniff II and ......
User currently offlineMtnmanmakalu From Ireland, joined Nov 2004, 515 posts, RR: 3
Reply 5, posted (9 years 3 weeks 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 3148 times:

FlyGuyClt- You are correct in your above post- what NWA has demonstrated over the past few years is that they have no respect for their employees and I don't think that will ever change. Personally, I am willing to help a Company out if I feel like the favour will be returned sometime in the future, but with NWA, they have clearly shown that is not how they do things or are willing to try to do things. They should understand you get a lot more productivity out of your workers if they feel respected by the Company owners/management. With NWA, this is clearly not the case...
Some of the Company emails during the past few months to the employees are condescending and make us all feel like we are working for a bunch of babysitters!!!
It really is sad because I love my job, but it is hard to be positive when so much hopeless negativity is going on around you...

mtnman



I do, I don't, whatever.......
User currently offline1MillionFlyer From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 6, posted (9 years 3 weeks 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 3042 times:

Quoting FlyGuyClt (Reply 4):
After all, did CO not just buy 2 more 777's with the money saved from it's employees and have those employees from the groups that gave give backs at the signing of the order at Boeing?

No they did not, they announced the order, they will lease or finance the 777's and they will be paid for over time with operating revenue generated by the use of those planes.

No airline would ever pay cash for an airplane.


User currently offlineFlyGuyClt From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 537 posts, RR: 8
Reply 7, posted (9 years 3 weeks 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 3019 times:

At a George Bush Intercontinental Airport ceremony, seven Continental employees signed the aircraft order alongside Continental Chairman and CEO Larry Kellner, Continental President Jeff Smisek and Boeing Commercial Airplanes President and CEO Alan Mulally.


"We have Continental employees signing this order, because it was the sacrifices they made with their pay and benefit reductions that made our growth strategy possible. These new aircraft will help deliver more career opportunities and better job security for our employees, while giving our customers superior comfort and the ability to fly to more international destinations nonstop on their favorite airline."

Quoting 1MillionFlyer (Reply 6):
Quoting FlyGuyClt (Reply 4):
After all, did CO not just buy 2 more 777's with the money saved from it's employees and have those employees from the groups that gave give backs at the signing of the order at Boeing?

No they did not, they announced the order, they will lease or finance the 777's and they will be paid for over time with operating revenue generated by the use of those planes.

No airline would ever pay cash for an airplane.

The preceding was from PR News. It looks like it is about what I said in my post...Doesn't it ?

Safe Flying  

PS. Where did I say they were paying cash for these birds? The employee give backs are over time. Their scarifices made this order possible. At least that is what their C.E.O. said. I would tend to believe him.

[Edited 2005-08-06 22:01:13]


Florida Express, Braniff II and ......
User currently offlineBobnwa From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 6465 posts, RR: 9
Reply 8, posted (9 years 3 weeks 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 2989 times:

Quoting FlyGuyClt (Reply 4):
What really amazed me is that in the 90's when the employees gave wages and work rules to the tune of some 1 billion dollars over 3 years was it ?

Didn't the employees get Northwest stock in return for the givebacks which they then were able to sell at market prices which gave them a great return for their givebacks. This applied to all employee groups except the ground workers who wanted preferred stock instead of common stock.

The vast majority of the employees made their money back plus significant profits if they were smart.

Please do not act as if the employee givebacks were not returned to the employees. That is not true!


User currently offlineFlyGuyClt From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 537 posts, RR: 8
Reply 9, posted (9 years 3 weeks 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 2977 times:

Um, Tell that to the many employee friends I have over there that did not get the opportunity to sell the stock when it was worth something. When the stock matured. NWA as of last year did not....DID not honor the agreed to stock price. They went to court and because of financial issues, are not presently responsible to buy it back at the agreed to price. The stock was incorporated into retirement for the flight attendant group and major I.R.S. penalties were there if you sold your stock at the time it was worth something. Ask any NWA Flight Attendant and I am sure you will here what I am saying is in fact true.

Safe Flying  

So let's see. For example. My friend "T" who is now at S.W.A. for 3 years. He called the other day to say his stock. That is untouched. Is now worth around $600.00 as of his last statement. His 3 years of paycuts were about $8,000. So I ask you. WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT ? From the flight attendant group. And that is all I know about for sure. They did not have that luxury without great penalties.

http://www.bizjournals.com/pacific/stories/2003/06/02/daily22.html

Please refer to this article. What I am saying is true. Please don't condem me without the facts yourself. Much appreciated.

[Edited 2005-08-06 22:27:25]


Florida Express, Braniff II and ......
User currently offline1MillionFlyer From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 10, posted (9 years 3 weeks 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 2921 times:

Quoting FlyGuyClt (Reply 7):
We have Continental employees signing this order, because it was the sacrifices they made with their pay and benefit reductions that made our growth strategy possible. These new aircraft will help deliver more career opportunities and better job security for our employees, while giving our customers superior comfort and the ability to fly to more international destinations nonstop on their favorite airline."

this is a symbolic statement, the pay cuts enable CO's credit rating and cash flow to recover so someone will lend them money to finance the planes.

It sounds like a real touchy feely moment but it is hardly N102DA!


User currently offlineBobnwa From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 6465 posts, RR: 9
Reply 11, posted (9 years 3 weeks 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 2874 times:

Quoting FlyGuyClt (Reply 9):
Um, Tell that to the many employee friends I have over there that did not get the opportunity to sell the stock when it was worth something. When the stock matured. NWA as of last year did not....DID not honor the agreed to stock price

This is the preferred stock you are talking about. All employee groups had the option of taking common stock. The smart ones did and made a nice profit selling it! Ask any pilot or non-contract employee or the other unions who took the common stock. The stock was given back to the employees starting in 1995 and could be sold at various times after that. This was when NWA was selling in the $25-$55 dollar range.
All employee groups had access to the common stock plan. Some choose not to use it.


User currently offlineFlyGuyClt From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 537 posts, RR: 8
Reply 12, posted (9 years 3 weeks 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 2823 times:

Quoting 1MillionFlyer (Reply 10):



Quoting Bobnwa (Reply 11):

Come on guys. This thread does not need to go the way of others on the board. Bottom line.

1. I was quoting the news and the C.E.O. of Continental. And I never ever brought the "Spirit of Delta" into this. Symbolic or not, at least they recognized their employee group in public and acknowledge their sacrifices.

2. I was and still am referring to the flight attendant group. I then gave you a link to prove what I was saying was indeed correct.


Safe Flying  

[Edited 2005-08-07 00:18:04]

[Edited 2005-08-07 00:21:08]


Florida Express, Braniff II and ......
User currently offlineM404 From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 2226 posts, RR: 5
Reply 13, posted (9 years 3 weeks 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 2656 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Actually, I think WN has paid cash for their aircraft for quite awhile. Can anyone back that up?


Less sarcasm and more thought equal better understanding
User currently offlineIkramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 21511 posts, RR: 60
Reply 14, posted (9 years 3 weeks 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 2645 times:

Quoting FlyGuyClt (Reply 12):
1. I was quoting the news and the C.E.O. of Continental. And I never ever brought the "Spirit of Delta" into this. Symbolic or not, at least they recognized their employee group in public and acknowledge their sacrifices.

And as you and others said, respect goes a long way, on both sides.

CO employees (mostly, besides a few on these boards) have had great respect for Bethune because they believed in his vision and believed he had respect for them. I asked them every chance I could before Kellner took over how they felt about him. The answers were usually the same, they felt he would be just as good, that he'd been a good man in his previous position at CO, etc.

Again, respect breeds respect. CO needed those give-backs. Since then, they've become profitable. Profits lead to good credit and new planes and new routes. New planes and new routes lead to MORE JOBS. New routes are usually profitable routes. More profits leads to the ability to provide cost of living raises and bonuses, even after the give-backs.

At AA, there was this respect relationship that led to good times under Crandall. But when he left, the new guy didn't do it for the employees. It took the ouster of Carty (sp?) before the employees were willing to take the cuts to avoid bankruptcy. But since then, things have improved, and AA is back to a good way again, growing again, employees happier again.

But at NWA, neither side seems to have much respect for the other. I don't lay the blame singularly on either side, but the management seems to want to break the union, and considering how they've behaved, I can't blame them. I don't think it will matter, since the management won't make it work anyway, but NWA is headed down a bad, bad path right now.

Oh, and BTW, if they spend $107 million in one year to save $150 million every year, that is a good investment, and demonstrates just how much they felt the union was costing them in the long run. Agree or disagree with the tactic, that should demonstrate just how expensive unions can be to airlines...



Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
User currently offline777Purser From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 219 posts, RR: 3
Reply 15, posted (9 years 3 weeks 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 2599 times:

Just a correction on the previous post:

Carty left after a manipulative re-vote was orchestrated as APFA had voted NO on concessions. Then somehow they extended the deadline and came up with a YES vote. The very following day Carty announced so called "retention bonuses" for a large group of executives including himself. He had withheld the information to secure the concessions.

That cost him and some other people their jobs. We have to start taking a look at management for responsibility for poor results and not just the unions.

It has taken Arpey and Laurie Curtis FLT Svc VP a lot of time and work to restore morale. While things around AA are not all "peachy" NW management's manipulative ways I am learning about just make me so angry and I don't even work for them. I want to wish NW labor groups good luck. They have my support and solidarity in their fight to keep their jobs, workrules and wages as unaffected as possible. They need to make sure management goes looking for some money in their own pockets as well.


User currently offlineCkfred From United States of America, joined Apr 2001, 5222 posts, RR: 1
Reply 16, posted (9 years 3 weeks 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 2559 times:

Ikramerica:

I know AA employees that weren't big fans of Bob Crandall, because he didn't go out of his way to get along with the unions. The reason that the unions didn't grouse more than they did was that AA either made a lot of money, or lost less than the other legacy carriers.

The difference between Bob Crandall and Don Carty was that Crandall could be very brusque and abrasive, while Carty was much more affable and diplomatic. One friend of mine said several times while Carty served as President, then CEO, that he still was mentored by Bob Crandall on how to deal with unions.

Arpey, so far, appears far more willing to try to get along with the unions. But, the proof will be what happens when AA gets back to making money consistantly, and the unions start wanting to get pay back to pre-2003 levels.


User currently offline777Purser From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 219 posts, RR: 3
Reply 17, posted (9 years 3 weeks 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 2511 times:

HAHAHAAA!!

CKFred, I think you know the answer to that as well as I do. Management will not go near a negotiations table well into a couple years after the concessions deal expires EVEN if they are rolling on dough!!! So...lets say we stay profitable, we will be talking (or rather fighting tooth and nail) by 2010.

That is why it is so important to try to keep wages and workrules as good as possible, because once they are gone, they are gone and it takes years to get them back.


User currently offlineCommavia From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 11559 posts, RR: 62
Reply 18, posted (9 years 3 weeks 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 2461 times:

Quoting Ckfred (Reply 16):
I know AA employees that weren't big fans of Bob Crandall, because he didn't go out of his way to get along with the unions. The reason that the unions didn't grouse more than they did was that AA either made a lot of money, or lost less than the other legacy carriers.

The thing about Crandall was that while he was just about universally despised on a personal level by union members at AA, he generally commanded their respect from a business standpoint. I will never forget back in April 2003 when the whole thing with Carty was going on -- our local ABC affiliate WFAA here in Dallas went out to DFW and interviewed mechanics and rampers who basically said, "he's an a**hole, but he's our a**hole, and we want him back!"

While Crandall was extremely difficult and tense to deal and negotiate with, and while he willingly admitted that he wished he didn't have to even deal with unions, I think most union employees at AA now recognize that at least Crandall delivered -- he tripled the company's size, causing major raises for many employees, dramatically expanded the fleet and network, creating new jobs and swelling the union ranks, and at least he was totally upfront about what he wanted -- efficiency and savings from the unions.

Since 9/11, and since April 2003, I have talked to many an AA flight attendant -- generally considered the most militant of AA's unionized workgroups -- who has basically hinted that while they respect what Arpey is trying to do, and while the can't stand Carty, they wish that Crandall was back. They liked what he said back in 2003 -- they instead of all the workrule changes, he would have just laid off a bunch more flight attendants but kept the ones who stayed a bit happier. They want the security back, as many people feel that with Crandall at the helm, AA's future will be at least a bit more safe.

Quoting Ckfred (Reply 16):
Arpey, so far, appears far more willing to try to get along with the unions. But, the proof will be what happens when AA gets back to making money consistently, and the unions start wanting to get pay back to pre-2003 levels.

This is very true -- the second AA starts showing a consistent profit, the unions are going to be knocking on the door wanting their dough back. It will be interesting to see if AA can hold it together. Management may sweeten the performance bonus deal, giving AA workers a piece of the pie from any profits, and I think we can safely assume that AA will use the pensions as a bargaining chip -- i.e., "yes, you are paid less than your peers at UA, NW, CO, DL, etc., but at least we are still fully funding your pensions." IMO, that isn't that unreasonable of an argument.


User currently offline777Purser From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 219 posts, RR: 3
Reply 19, posted (9 years 3 weeks 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 2440 times:

Quoting Commavia (Reply 18):
AA flight attendant -- generally considered the most militant of AA's unionized workgroups -- who has basically hinted that while they respect what Arpey is trying to do, and while the can't stand Carty, they wish that Crandall was back

Yes, we are probably the most militant group, though it depends on which base. DFW is more company, MIA and JFK are real tough. In any case...I enjoyed your post. At a personal level I am willing to give Arpey a chance...I am glad Carty is gone along with Jane Allen...the "retention bonus" scam was a shame. While they are working us to dead at low wages at least Mr. Arpey and Flt Svc VP Laurie Curtis seem honest. That's a lot to ask in todays corporate world. Honesty.


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