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Song To Fly SFO-MCO  
User currently offlineFlyPNS1 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 6606 posts, RR: 24
Posted (9 years 3 weeks 2 days ago) and read 4861 times:

Not a real surprise...this route was expected. Song begins SFO-MCO 3x weekly on Nov 4. By Mar 1, the flight will be daily. Song will also increase frequencies on many of the existing BOS/JFK-Florida routes.

A 2nd FLL-LAX service will also be added.

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/08/06/business/06air.html

60 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinePacificFlyer From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 382 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (9 years 3 weeks 2 days ago) and read 4794 times:

That sounds great! Right now the only airline that flies non-stop between MCO and SFO is United. With Song flying MCO-SFO, there will be more non-stop flights between the two cities. This is good news for me!

User currently offlineTinPusher007 From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 977 posts, RR: 1
Reply 2, posted (9 years 3 weeks 2 days ago) and read 4783 times:

Song is an excellent product and that goes a long way (though not all the way) against the likes of B6 and FL, etc. I hope DL is somehow able to morph its domestic product into something of the same quality without alienating business pax. BTW...I am surprised United doesn't use TED on this route.


"Flying isn't inherently dangerous...but very unforgiving of carelessness, incapacity or neglect."
User currently offlineUA777222 From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 3348 posts, RR: 11
Reply 3, posted (9 years 3 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 4767 times:

Take a stop down to T1 at SFO and you'll have already thought Song moved in. All the check in counters have been changed, all signs now carry the logo. I'm excited to see it! When is the first SFO-BOS/JFK route that is so trasured by United and American going to be starting up?

Take care,

Matt



"It wasn't raining when Noah built the ark."
User currently offlineAS739X From United States of America, joined Apr 2003, 6124 posts, RR: 23
Reply 4, posted (9 years 3 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 4745 times:

Its about damn time someone else jumps on SFO-MCO. Thank you Song! I have to say these birds bring some more color to SFO.

ASSFO



"Some pilots avoid storm cells and some play connect the dots!"
User currently offlinePadcrasher From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 5, posted (9 years 3 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 4741 times:

Song has two flights in the JFK-SFO market already.

I'm curious to know whether this involves some additional 757s brought over from mainline? I know the increased frequencies from JFK to Florida are at the expense of decreased Transcon flights. (Seasonal)


User currently offlineModesto2 From United States of America, joined Jul 2000, 2792 posts, RR: 5
Reply 6, posted (9 years 3 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 4730 times:

It's great to see Delta increasing its presence at SFO. Considering DL's decreasing West Coast service in the last few years, I'm glad DL sees the value of the Bay Area. Although a loyal JetBlue fan, I hope DL does well on this route. Maybe B6 needs to start OAK-FLL...

User currently offlineAS739X From United States of America, joined Apr 2003, 6124 posts, RR: 23
Reply 7, posted (9 years 3 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 4723 times:

OK..there seems to be confision by some.

As Padcrasher said. Song has arrived. They are currently run 2 daily SFO-JFK flights. By the end of Oct or Nov it shows all 5 dailys to JFK being Song. SFO-BOS does seem like a liklely flight, but does DL have the planes to do it?

Matt, also gates 40,42,44 have Delta/Song signs on them. The other 2 gates don't.

ASSFO



"Some pilots avoid storm cells and some play connect the dots!"
User currently offlineWindowSeat From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 1312 posts, RR: 57
Reply 8, posted (9 years 3 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 4717 times:

Quoting AS739X (Reply 4):
Thank you Song! I have to say these birds bring some more color to SFO.

Song goes five daily to JFK starting September. Thats a lot of green Big grin

What are the loads like? Anyone know?

cheers



I'm all in favour of keeping dangerous weapons out of the hands of fools. Let's start with keyboards.
User currently offlineDAL767400ER From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 9, posted (9 years 3 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 4685 times:

As said, could have been expected, and at the same time, I expect FLL-SFO to also come sometime down the road. Btw on the topic of frequencyy increases for the winter season, JFK-MCO/FLL both go to 8(!) daily flights in November.

User currently offlinePadcrasher From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 10, posted (9 years 3 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 4676 times:

FLL will be a big mess all winter. I can almost bet you the congestion in FLL and to a lesser extent JFK has thrown a wrench in Jetblue's expansion plans for these airports. BOS/MIA/EWR and other airports look all the better.

User currently offlinePadcrasher From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 11, posted (9 years 3 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 4643 times:

Quoting TinPusher007 (Reply 2):
Song is an excellent product and that goes a long way (though not all the way) against the likes of B6 and FL, etc.

OK, the argument could be made JB has a better product in comparison to Song. But in what world is FL even in the ballpark?


User currently offlineUA777222 From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 3348 posts, RR: 11
Reply 12, posted (9 years 3 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 4629 times:

Wow alot of stuff changes after 2 weeks of being out of the country. So there are actual Song aircraft that are flying these routes? I thought the same when I saw all the song attire but was told that they don't show up until later this month/next month.

Some one please conferm?

Thanks,

Matt



"It wasn't raining when Noah built the ark."
User currently offlineDeltaMIA From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 1672 posts, RR: 17
Reply 13, posted (9 years 3 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 4610 times:

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Thread starter):
By Mar 1, the flight will be daily.

The flight goes daily 31JAN.

Quoting Padcrasher (Reply 5):
I'm curious to know whether this involves some additional 757s brought over from mainline?

Increased aircraft utilization and 40 minute turn times on some flights effective Nov01. The only way we get this flight is to have it be an all-nighter. There just isn't the equipment during the day at this point in time.
They are still working out ground time issues and crew issues for SFO-MCO.

DL1985 MCO SFO 2045 2332
DL2093 SFO MCO 2340 0742



It's a big building with patients, but that's not important right now.
User currently onlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 32726 posts, RR: 72
Reply 14, posted (9 years 3 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 4563 times:

I knew the new Song route uploaded this weekend would be SFO-MCO. I don't get the deal with it starting 3x weekly, though.


a.
User currently offlineDeltaMIA From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 1672 posts, RR: 17
Reply 15, posted (9 years 3 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 4535 times:

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 14):
I don't get the deal with it starting 3x weekly, though.

Allow the plane an opportunity to be worked on in MCO. In December there are only two planes remaining over night in MCO 7 days a week and both come from JFK. There just isn't any time with the winter schedule to have these planes go through minor maintenance and once a month they need server upgrades for things like new movies and games and it would take too long with only two planes staying for more than an hour. The Song planes in December are flying almost all day long and on average only have about 50 minutes ground time.



It's a big building with patients, but that's not important right now.
User currently offlineTinPusher007 From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 977 posts, RR: 1
Reply 16, posted (9 years 3 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 4449 times:

Quoting Padcrasher (Reply 11):
OK, the argument could be made JB has a better product in comparison to Song. But in what world is FL even in the ballpark?

B6 and Song are on a different level as far as on board ammenties are concerned when compared to other LCCs...I will grant you that. But when I said that it(song) goes a long way against them, I was including everything as a whole including cost structure which Im sure FL has got them beat. As the saying goes "butts in seats don't guarantee profits." Just because song may grab market share with its chic style doesn't mean its hurting other carriers if its not profitable...thats all I meant. I happen to love song and fly it as often as I can.



"Flying isn't inherently dangerous...but very unforgiving of carelessness, incapacity or neglect."
User currently offlineDAL767400ER From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 17, posted (9 years 3 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 4387 times:

Quoting DeltaMIA (Reply 15):
The Song planes in December are flying almost all day long and on average only have about 50 minutes ground time.

Wow, talk about increasing aircraft utilization  Wow! . Since Song will be adding so many flights for the high season in Florida, is there any chance of finally seeing TPA-LAS? Seems like a missing link in Song's network at the moment.


User currently offlineSongStar From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 132 posts, RR: 1
Reply 18, posted (9 years 3 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 4349 times:

and don't forget the aforementioned FLL-CAI via JFK mentioned in a previous threat  rotfl  but seriously.. Smile great things are coming  Smile


ss

flysong.com


User currently offlineTinPusher007 From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 977 posts, RR: 1
Reply 19, posted (9 years 3 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 4265 times:

Quoting DAL767400ER (Reply 17):
Wow, talk about increasing aircraft utilization . Since Song will be adding so many flights for the high season in Florida, is there any chance of finally seeing TPA-LAS? Seems like a missing link in Song's network at the moment.

DL did briefly fly TPA-LAS a few years ago but I think it got the axe sometime before 9/11.



"Flying isn't inherently dangerous...but very unforgiving of carelessness, incapacity or neglect."
User currently offlineMariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25114 posts, RR: 85
Reply 20, posted (9 years 3 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 4232 times:
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I am totally confused. Why is Song doing all these transcons?

The airline is Delta. Is Delta saying, we've can't compete, but Song can?

Why doesn't Delta become Song, in that case?

And - um - yes, I do know about the supposed "leisure traveller" concept, but I had never thought of JFK/SFO as a "leisure" route. Or JFK/SEA.

cheers

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlineDutchjet From Netherlands, joined Oct 2000, 7864 posts, RR: 57
Reply 21, posted (9 years 3 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 4219 times:

Quoting Mariner (Reply 20):
I am totally confused. Why is Song doing all these transcons?

The airline is Delta. Is Delta saying, we've can't compete, but Song can?

Why doesn't Delta become Song, in that case?

And - um - yes, I do know about the supposed "leisure traveller" concept, but I had never thought of JFK/SFO as a "leisure" route. Or JFK/SEA.

cheers

mariner

I think that you raise some very good points in a light-hearted post.

Of course you are aware that Song is doing transcons out of JFK because JetBlue does transcons out of JFK and for no other reason.....DL thinks that NYC based and west coast pax like the Song product better, so Song now flies the routes. I have no idea if its working or if DL is increasing market share by flying Song on transcons, but I do know that this move has not made premium fare customers travelling to/from Europe very happy. The lack of F or J class on Song flights is a major annoyance for those who travel on DL in J class between Europe and Florida or California - if you travel via JFK, its means coach on the domestic segment. The only conclusion I can come to is that DL now considers transcons leisure routes because LCC fly them - as you point out, there are a lot of business pax on these so called leisure routes who probably are no longer flying DL.

I have never been a big fan of the "airline with an airline" concept, so I am not objective - but if DL thinks that its Song product is what the flying public want, why not standardize on that product system wide?

As for SFO-MCO, why not?


User currently offlineCopaair737 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 22, posted (9 years 3 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 4199 times:

Alright! Great news. Its about time someone else got on SFO-MCO. Any chance we will see SFO-TPA? It'd be cool to see, but I doubt it since TZ failed pretty miserably on PIE-SFO. With US apparently going to start FLL-SFO, its great to see new Florida service to SFO. More DL service as well.

-Copa


User currently offlinePadcrasher From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 23, posted (9 years 3 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 4185 times:

Delta is not saying it cannot compete. It is saying Song can better compete.

And for the umpteenth time it is not Song competing against Delta, it is Song competing for Delta.

So why don't they covert the whole thing to Song? Rome was not built in a day.


User currently offlinePadcrasher From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 24, posted (9 years 3 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 4175 times:

The real weird thing in all of this is why AA after watching their average fare fall from $489 in 2000 to $286 in 2004 (while fuel costs have doubled) is still flying the same frequencies, with the same old widebodies seating 156. (The same as JB's little A320s)..LOL

Now that's strange.


25 Post contains images 3201 : I'd love to see nonstops between any airport pair in the Bay Areas. I keep hoping for WN to do TPA-OAK or, even better, TPA-SJC. C'mon guys, FLL-TPA-
26 Mariner : I am having very real problems with that Padcrasher. Delta is saying that Song is a better, more competitve airline? cheers mariner
27 Copaair737 : I don't know the specifics on it, but it was around approximately 2 years ago albeit for a very short time. It was when SFO was getting built up for
28 DeltaMIA : Yes it does/is. Costs are lower, capacity is higher. You do the math. It could happen, but not in the immediate future with the current allotment of
29 Padcrasher : There's no rush on Song, if Delta mainline is incorporating the important parts of the Song game plan. Quicker turn times, higher utilization, less c
30 Mariner : I have no idea how to do the math because I've no idea how an outsider gets access to (a) Song's costs, as separate from Delta and (b) Song's revenue
31 Padcrasher : Here's a great example of why Delta is not sweating going the AA/CO route. FLL-LAX, head to head AA Song vs Song 757s. AA's average fare $170 Song (ne
32 FlyPNS1 : Yes. I don't think there's any doubt that Song is a far better airline than Delta. With the exception of a slightly larger seat, Song is a better pro
33 MAH4546 : No it's not. AA has a huge amount of corporate contracts and premium class flyers on the route that have stuck with AA. While they have seen revenue
34 AS739X : TZ SFO-PIE did aweful. They started it with a 753 and it went on to do a Hawaii turn, the was downgraded to a 738 and only fed pax into SFO for Hawaii
35 Mariner : I am, as the British would say, gob-smacked. If an airline (Delta) knows how to run a better airline (Song) why doesn't it make Delta like Song? What
36 Post contains images FLAIRPORT : That would be RSW-JFK-CAI
37 Padcrasher : What is the continuous reference to contracts? Corporations? Really they could get their money from a rich Uncle of Carty's for all that matters. AA'
38 FlyPNS1 : There's a few reasons. Cost is probably the first. DL simply doesn't have the money to convert everything to a Song like product. Another reason is t
39 Commavia : You conveniently leave out they are also generating a RASM on these routes that is almost certainly higher than B6 on average. While they compete wit
40 Padcrasher : Comavia. I know the load factors of both. I know the average fares of both. I know how much each aircraft seats. I know in general how much more a 767
41 Stirling : That is a mouthful. The "Airline within an Airline" concept is nothing new, but the motivations behind such have changed. Through the history of comm
42 DeltaMIA : No they haven't there are a ton of business traffic routes in DL's system. The type of aircraft that flies JFKLAX doesn't affect the corporate discou
43 DeltaMIA : It's loaded. You can get it on delta.com. However flysong.com will not have it until the PR is made. I assume it will come Monday or Tuesday along wi
44 Commavia : Again, nobody is disputing that the 762 has a higher CASM than the 757, especially in Song's cozy 199-seat configuration. However, AA derives much mo
45 FlyPNS1 : But what happens when the companies who have corporate discounts with DL decide to give their business to someone else because DL no longer offers a
46 Padcrasher : Here's a great example of what I'm talking about. The latest fare data from the 4th Q. (My apologies AA has gone up slightly) LAX" "JFK" 2475.00 4299.
47 Padcrasher : And that's reflected in the average fare data. Mark can you weigh in hear? Cooler heads need to defend poor ole AA. Maybe with some data? Comavia's c
48 Post contains images JetBlueAtJFK : How do you know that, they don't release it, it is mixed in with DL's and if you know them and you think they are so good, then release them. Otherwi
49 Padcrasher : Looks like I've come to a dead end. Hard data met with bluster, insults, no refuting data and silence on the part of Mr. AA...... Such Gentleman...LOL
50 Post contains images JetBlueAtJFK : Good one, but not. And this hard data, not really, sounds made up. jetBlueAtJFK
51 DeltaMIA : No thats not what I mean at all. These companies are a business and when they are sending 100 people a week from say LGA to MCO they want the most co
52 Post contains images Hawk44 : Anybody know what time this flight will be at? Will it go head to head with B6's early morning LGB flight? Hawk44 P.S. I will be flying song for the
53 MAH4546 : All I can say is that while AA has taken an obvious revenue hit on their trans-cons, and they aren't the darling they used to be, they are still maki
54 DeltaMIA : DL2083 FLL LAX 0700 0935 DL2083 LAX FLL 1140 1927 The Song winter schedule is loaded on delta.com. You will see a lot of changes on many routes. Timi
55 BOSPMV : I am surprised the the ps service has not really benfitted UA on the JFK-LAX/SFO flights, I figured the premium service would steal away F passengers
56 Hawk44 : Nice to see they changed the 6:45 pm to an 8 pm Hawk44
57 Commavia : Nope. UA's new p.s. venture has really had little to no impact on AA's competing flights -- in fact, it may have helped AA a little (many people on t
58 Padcrasher : UA is doing fine and likely obtaining a significantly higher average fare than American. Here's what we know about the latest 4Q fare report. AA fare
59 Aa757first : Why doesn't Delta become Song? Well, a couple of reasons. A) The enormous cost of retrofitting all of the aircraft in their fleet. This includes repai
60 LACA773 : I'm glad DL is expanding Song in lesiure/high volume markets. Though I do wish they would get their act together when it comes to their mainline servi
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