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Malaysia Airlines Boeing 747 Over Climbing?  
User currently offlineSepang From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (8 years 11 months 3 weeks 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 15858 times:


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Alexander Kueh


Maybe Boeing 747 pilots in this forum can give the explanation above.

63 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineIndy From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 4537 posts, RR: 18
Reply 1, posted (8 years 11 months 3 weeks 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 15824 times:

I'm leaning towards a fake. Granted I am away from home right now and zooming in with MS paint but the background is so nice and clean and then there is this border around the jet. It would probably be easier to tell in Photoshop. But I'm thinking its a fake.


Indy = Indianapolis and not Independence Air
User currently offlineIndy From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 4537 posts, RR: 18
Reply 2, posted (8 years 11 months 3 weeks 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 15801 times:

BTW... I'm no pilot but aren't the flaps on that plane extended as if it were coming in for a landing?


Indy = Indianapolis and not Independence Air
User currently offlineIkramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 21474 posts, RR: 60
Reply 3, posted (8 years 11 months 3 weeks 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 15806 times:

Fun to be a pax on that... not.

As for messy edges, that is often an indication of a real pic, as compression artifacts congregate around harsh transitions (like a plane on a blue background) while the BG and the plane itself will look clearer.



Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
User currently offlineIndy From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 4537 posts, RR: 18
Reply 4, posted (8 years 11 months 3 weeks 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 15776 times:

Look at all the imperfections in the white of the airplane and compare it to the perfection in the blue of the sky. Skipping past looking at the pixels in the image.... can a 747 get to that angle as such a low altitude without stalling?


Indy = Indianapolis and not Independence Air
User currently offlineUSAFHummer From United States of America, joined May 2000, 10685 posts, RR: 53
Reply 5, posted (8 years 11 months 3 weeks 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 15757 times:

Quoting Indy (Reply 2):
BTW... I'm no pilot but aren't the flaps on that plane extended as if it were coming in for a landing?

Nope, not even close...

Greg



Chief A.net college football stadium self-pic guru
User currently offlineIndy From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 4537 posts, RR: 18
Reply 6, posted (8 years 11 months 3 weeks 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 15746 times:

Quoting USAFHummer (Reply 5):
Nope, not even close...

Greg

Ok they aren't extended  Smile. Well can you then confirm whether or not the angle of the plane is possible without stalling at such a low altitude? I assume the airspeed wouldn't be high enough just yet to climb at such an angle.



Indy = Indianapolis and not Independence Air
User currently offlineCBPhoto From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 1551 posts, RR: 5
Reply 7, posted (8 years 11 months 3 weeks 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 15710 times:

Well....I guess it could be an empty 747, and at full power I am sure it could very well pull an angle like that. The 757 can go very very steep when empty, so I have no reason to doubt that a 747 cannot go that angle. BTW the flaps are in a normal take off position. However, if the picture is a fake, i'll let the photo analysts decide that  Smile


ETOPS: Engines Turning or Passengers Swimming
User currently offlineWukka From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 1017 posts, RR: 16
Reply 8, posted (8 years 11 months 3 weeks 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 15600 times:

Quoting Indy (Reply 4):
Look at all the imperfections in the white of the airplane and compare it to the perfection in the blue of the sky. Skipping past looking at the pixels in the image.... can a 747 get to that angle as such a low altitude without stalling?

Regarding the imperfections... in PS, it would appear that the compression artifacts are pretty equal (rather nasty), throughout. If you have the opportunity, check out the pic on a CRT vs. an LCD monitor. The "perfection" in the blue of the sky looks like absolute hell on an LCD. The white of the plane almost looks better.

As for the angle at altitude question, I would say absolutely... it may be a bit steeper than "normal", but if the plane has a decent runout and strong groundspeed before pulling back, he's at what looks like a 30-35 degree nose-up. Steep, definitely so.

Speaking of which, I'd love to hear some of the comments from red-eye cargo pilots that pull that nasty burn and roll 90 on a 36 departure out of CVG at 5am for noise abatement.

Too bad that Adobe has made a product that makes us think that everything we see is bullshit.



We can agree to disagree.
User currently offlineBeeweel15 From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 1741 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (8 years 11 months 3 weeks 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 15567 times:

Quoting CBPhoto (Reply 7):
Well....I guess it could be an empty 747, and at full power I am sure it could very well pull an angle like that. The 757 can go very very steep when empty, so I have no reason to doubt that a 747 cannot go that angle. BTW the flaps are in a normal take off position. However, if the picture is a fake, i'll let the photo analysts decide that

I have to agree with you. On a daily basis at work at JFK airport when I watch those a/c taking off those pilots do some steep climbs especially the cargo pilots. I have fun watching Fed Ex lift off especially their MD11's and DC10's those pilots do some steep climbs especially when empty or carrying little weight.


User currently offlineAggieflyboi04 From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 208 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (8 years 11 months 3 weeks 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 15449 times:

Its a pic from a flight simulator, the back ground is digatal.

User currently offlineArmitageShanks From UK - England, joined Dec 2003, 3609 posts, RR: 15
Reply 11, posted (8 years 11 months 3 weeks 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 15435 times:

Quoting Aggieflyboi04 (Reply 10):
Its a pic from a flight simulator, the back ground is digatal.

That's one hell of a simulator!


User currently offlineDogfighter2111 From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2004, 1968 posts, RR: 1
Reply 12, posted (8 years 11 months 3 weeks 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 15314 times:

Quoting Aggieflyboi04 (Reply 10):

That's not a simulator.

It is not possible to get such a good quality photo in a "game".

Thanks
Mike


User currently offlineMandala499 From Indonesia, joined Aug 2001, 6767 posts, RR: 76
Reply 13, posted (8 years 11 months 3 weeks 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 15309 times:

Sounds like someone had fun for base training or a short hauler!

In the days when JAL744s would do CGK-DPS runs, we get take offs like these... almost on a daily basis!

Let it be on TO/GA power no derates, light, keep that speed on V2+20... whaddya get? Steep! :P

Mandala499



When losing situational awareness, pray Cumulus Granitus isn't nearby !
User currently offlineWukka From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 1017 posts, RR: 16
Reply 14, posted (8 years 11 months 3 weeks 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 15264 times:

Quoting Aggieflyboi04 (Reply 10):
Its a pic from a flight simulator, the back ground is digatal.

Huh?!?  confused 



We can agree to disagree.
User currently offlineAbirdA From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 290 posts, RR: 6
Reply 15, posted (8 years 11 months 3 weeks 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 15177 times:

From a technical perspective, the photo looks legitimate.

Throughout the image, midtones are fairly muddy. The glare on the upper portion of the fuselage matches where the natural light seems to be originating from in the rest of the photo. Take a look at the horizontal stabilizer. If I had been attempting to produce this photo, I would have attempted to create a bigger contrast between the sky and the right side of the stabilizer. The way it's almost lost in the grey of the sky screams legitimate to me. It's a fairly clean plane, and there seem to be runway reflections on the belly in keeping with the plane's attitude and altitude, judging by the visible portion of the runway in the image. The toughest part of producing this fake would have been the fine detail around the landing gear struts. Blown up in photoshop, it looks too natural. As stated above, the very limited amount of fringing around the aircraft looks much more like a product of in-camera compression and/or down-sampling for the upload.

If this were a fake, the 744 would have had to be "knocked out" of its original background using one of several photoshop methods. Even if it was originally photographed against a flawless sky, it's not difficult to spot even the best of knockouts, if you know what you're looking for.

It's real.


User currently offlineBaw716 From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 2027 posts, RR: 27
Reply 16, posted (8 years 11 months 3 weeks 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 15179 times:

This is a perfectly legitimate takeoff.

The plane is obviously light, near OEW, plus some fuel for a short hop. From what I could see he has at least flap 5 selected, so depending upon his trim, he could rotate at 130-135kts and produce a very steep angle of climb once the tail has cleared on the rotation, which is probably V2+20kts.

Remember, the old 747-200s that were empty could climb like rockets if they were empty. The -400 has a better wing and winglets to produce higher lift at heavy weight, so imagine what it could do on a short distance flight, say KUL-SIN if the flight were really light. It could get up to FL240 in about 6-7 minutes with too much reduction in climb angle.

I think we've all become too accustom to seeing these aircraft take off when they are full, lumbering down the runway and then powering into the sky for the first 1500 feet of climb, then settling into its acceleration climb, then increasing its climb performance at about 3000 feet once it has accelerated and cleaned up its flaps. We are just not accustom to seeing it the other way, climbing out when it is empty. It does happen sometimes, and it is a sight to see when it does. It makes the 757 look anemic in its climb performance, and that bird is truly a rocket with wings.

baw716



David L. Lamb, fmr Area Mgr Alitalia SFO 1998-2002, fmr Regional Analyst SFO-UAL 1992-1998
User currently offlinePelican From Germany, joined Apr 2004, 2531 posts, RR: 8
Reply 17, posted (8 years 11 months 3 weeks 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 15089 times:

To all who think this pic is fake, have you ever uploaded a photo to the db? If so, you would know every photo is screened before it is added to the db and those a.net screeners aren't a bunch of idi*ts.

pelican


User currently offlineAirbusA346 From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2004, 7437 posts, RR: 2
Reply 18, posted (8 years 11 months 3 weeks 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 15064 times:

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 3):
Fun to be a pax on that... not.

You would definitely be pressed into your seat.

hehe


 Big grin  Silly  bigthumbsup 


Tom.



Tom Walker '086' First Officer of a A318/A319 for Air Lambert - Hours Flown: 17 hour 05 minutes (last updated 24/12/05).
User currently offlineWhiteHatter From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 19, posted (8 years 11 months 3 weeks 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 14698 times:

Quoting Baw716 (Reply 16):
The plane is obviously light, near OEW, plus some fuel for a short hop. From what I could see he has at least flap 5 selected, so depending upon his trim, he could rotate at 130-135kts and produce a very steep angle of climb once the tail has cleared on the rotation, which is probably V2+20kts.

As it's taken at the MH home base, I was thinking it could be a check flight after some work in the hangar so the aircraft would potentially be totally empty except for enough fuel for a short ride. Especially if they are doing engine testing.


User currently offlineWe're Nuts From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 5722 posts, RR: 20
Reply 20, posted (8 years 11 months 3 weeks 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 14664 times:

Wow. Some of the people in this thread are truly... remarkable.  spit 

Johan, can you raise the subscription rates?



Dear moderators: No.
User currently offlineScotron11 From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2004, 1178 posts, RR: 3
Reply 21, posted (8 years 11 months 3 weeks 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 14618 times:

I was at JFK a while back an watched a TWA 747 do exactly this. A very short take-off and zoomed up like a rocket. As stated previously, the plane is probably empty.

User currently offlineFrancoBlanco From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 22, posted (8 years 11 months 3 weeks 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 14377 times:

I think it is incredible how some people always manage it to disrespect others. Click on the photographer´s name, you will see that he has 247 photos in the database, all of them are high quality and I do not think he needs to put fake photos on this site.

I am no photographer and no pilot but I think this take-off should be perfectly possible with a lightly loaded 747.

BTW, it is "digital", not "digatal". Use the spell checker.

Sebastian


User currently offlineBaylorAirBear From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 2913 posts, RR: 50
Reply 23, posted (8 years 11 months 3 weeks 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 14060 times:

Let's give the screeners a little credit for what they do.

BaylorAirBear



I'm just skipping stones...
User currently offlineMhodgson From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2002, 5047 posts, RR: 25
Reply 24, posted (8 years 11 months 3 weeks 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 14044 times:

Its probably heading between KUL and MHs maintenance base at the old KUL airport (Subang? I think). Thus a very light fuel load, no PAX, no bags and minimal crew.


No trees were harmed by this message. However, several million electrons were terribly inconvenienced
25 Hotje : @Mhodgson You were just ahead of me. I think they'll still do maintenance on the old KUL and this might be just a ferry flight to that old apt. I've s
26 Jafa39 : Only last saturday night I stood outside the simulator shed at AKL and watched an NZ 747 do this very thing, VERY impressive in the flesh!!!!!!!!!
27 Pilot kaz : yup I saw the same last Thursday... VS 744 on a shuttle flight LHR-LGW, Oh did that thing climb! I don't think it is fake at all.
28 CHRISBA777ER : You should see the BA744s that BA take to Fairford for the RIAT - fully loaded with pax (id imagine), no bags, no cargo and barely any fuel - they don
29 Gg190 : I heard a story yesterday of the Garuda Indonesia flights, which would route from LGW to CDG and then on to indonesia using a 747. When they left LGW
30 Post contains images Cricket : What a takeoff!!!!! Well, MH pilots are known for their over-rotation skills... Remember Zurich!
31 VS747SPUR : I've seen the same but from LGW-LHR and they usually go up very steep. I think the picture is real myself. VS747SPUR
32 VEEREF : If the aircraft is lightly loaded, then this picture is perfectly normal. Don't forget a 744 was designed carry much more than it's own weight, so whe
33 Post contains links and images Emirates2005 : I agree... the plane must have a light load. Here is the proof although (on pic below) it is not a 744, this 346 is a heavy too and can do it easily w
34 Gearup : Can't speak for the authenicity of the photograph but as been said before, a lightly loaded 747 can easily do that. I was on an 18 year old 747-100 on
35 Jfr : As many of you might not know, MAS does it's heavy maintenance at the old KL airport at Subang. This is exactly what an empty 744 would look like if i
36 Aircellist : I once saw an AC 747, early version, take off from the short runway, parallel to the terminal, in YUL... For those who know the place, it took off bar
37 Harry : ya, i saw many 747 model planes take off with those powerful climb that's if the planes with a light load
38 Theredbaron : I remember in 1994 I took an almost new Malasya 744 from MEX to LAX there were 17 crew and 9 pax (YES 9), we rolled and rolled and I thought, what the
39 Wrighbrothers : Flaps are slightly extended for take off ( I believe it's 5 degrees) to help with the air flow over the wings or something like that. Happy Flying !!
40 Post contains images Martin21 : What game are you playing ? MS Flightsim 2025.... ?? I think the pic is for real Martin21
41 Post contains images FlyingZacko : That's exactly how you can tell you guys don't know anything about photography. Why do you guys think this picture is up on a.net? Cus it is a fake.
42 Post contains images Airliner777 : I see all the time Polar Air's B747-400/Fs taking off out of KMIA in the morning, and those pilots can make that bird climb! FedEx's DC-10 and MD-11 m
43 NWA742 : Definitely not a fake, a lightly-loaded/fueled 744 could very easily climb that steep and that fast. Actually it could go up quite a bit steeper for a
44 AbirdA : Exactly, FlyingZacko. What is the deal with people making baseless statements about the quality or authenticity of the photographs on this site with
45 707lvr : You guys got me so intrigued that I went to bed this morning thinking of how it could be fake - they almost always are. I even played with it in Paint
46 SOU146 : Has anyone flown LGK - KUL on a MAS B744..? I'm not sure what passenger/cargo loads are like on this route but for the very short distance I imagine t
47 Post contains links and images Jeffry747 : Definitely NOT! If you wanna see what Flightsim screenshots look like then go into the Aviation Hobby forum and check out the Flightsim screenshot th
48 UALDUDE : Not a fake! FltSim photo? Please! Flaps are in takeoff position, usually flaps 20 for takeoff. If a 747-400 is very light or empty they rotate and cli
49 Post contains images FlyingZacko : Now which one is real and which one is the DIGATAL one here? I'm so confused! Cheers, Sebastian
50 Andz : Actually an SP could climb like that and being a pax on that was awesome!! To be honest I don't find that angle too remarkable, the pic of the 346 in
51 Geo772 : I've seen 744s go out of LHR to CWL to have their heavy maintenance done and they go up pretty darn fast. I've seen gear up by half way down the runwa
52 Prebennorholm : Many years ago - when oil prices were much lower - I watched an empty Caravelle take off for a 100 miles positioning flight from a minor airport. It l
53 B744F : Why would you have to obey the speed limit? Cargo pilots are allowed to request higher speeds all the time Don't you usually set flaps 10 for takeoff
54 FSPilot747 : IIRC, it varies with weight and some other factors like temp.?
55 VEEREF : Actually any type of aircraft can if performance characteristics require it. On the DC-10 at higher weights we have to be well above 250 before we ca
56 OzGlobal : I was at Le Bourget and saw the whole Airbus fleet do the same improbable climb. I never would have thought it possible. Even the A380 went up like th
57 B744F : You're right, but I'm under the impression that cargo airplanes are either empty, or completely full, and almost always the ones who require a higher
58 B707Stu : Let's not forget what the journalists on Air Force 1 said about there 9/11 take-off from Florida. They said the aircraft went STRAIGHT UP, they were s
59 XFSUgimpLB41X : The standard at NWA is a flex takeoff with flaps 10, or a full power takeoff at flaps 20. Obviously this procedure will vary from airline to airline..
60 QANTAS077 : the aircraft was on a short hop from KUL to SZB for maintenence which is barely a 15 minute flight, knock off the fake and flight sim nonsense! if it
61 Post contains images ETStar : *I* think that the first picture is Flightsim!
62 B787 : I watched Air Force One (with Clinton on board) take off just like this from CBR. It's a small airport with a small runway and it was impressive. The
63 Sepang : This airplane was headed for Manchester that day.
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