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What If AF358 Had Been An Airbus A380?  
User currently offlineIncitatus From Brazil, joined Feb 2005, 4014 posts, RR: 13
Posted (9 years 1 month 1 week 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 8848 times:

The incident in Toronto is a reminder to give strong preference to fly on the lower deck in the A380.
It also calls into question how realistic it is to run evacuation drills on aircraft standing inside a hangar on level ground.


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51 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineIkramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 21528 posts, RR: 59
Reply 1, posted (9 years 1 month 1 week 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 8808 times:

What if the Hindenburg had been an A380? What if AF358 had been an ATR72?


Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
User currently offlineIndy From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 4561 posts, RR: 18
Reply 2, posted (9 years 1 month 1 week 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 8805 times:

What if AF358 had been a Pinto. Ok maybe a bad example  Smile


Indy = Indianapolis and not Independence Air
User currently offlineNorthwest717 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 3, posted (9 years 1 month 1 week 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 8717 times:

Quoting Incitatus (Thread starter):
The incident in Toronto is a reminder to give strong preference to fly on the lower deck in the A380.

But what if it lands too hard? You might be pancaked!!!!  alert 

-Tim  spin 


User currently offlineIndy From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 4561 posts, RR: 18
Reply 4, posted (9 years 1 month 1 week 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 8714 times:

It probably would have sunk the landing gear in the ground and wouldn't have made it as far. Just a guess.


Indy = Indianapolis and not Independence Air
User currently offlineFriendlySkies From United States of America, joined Aug 2004, 4105 posts, RR: 5
Reply 5, posted (9 years 1 month 1 week 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 8683 times:

Nothing different. The A340 wasn't even full.  Wink

User currently offlineSWALoveField From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 179 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (9 years 1 month 1 week 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 8667 times:

What if the lower deck of this hypothetical A380 was engulfed in flames?

As pointed out in other threads. Every accident is different. Learning from each accident is crucial.

Let's just hope, through all of the Olympian efforts in planning the A380 with regard to safety they are never tested.

Robb
Dallas, TX


User currently offlineMidnightMike From United States of America, joined Mar 2003, 2892 posts, RR: 14
Reply 7, posted (9 years 1 month 1 week 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 8538 times:

Quoting Incitatus (Thread starter):
The incident in Toronto is a reminder to give strong preference to fly on the lower deck in the A380.
It also calls into question how realistic it is to run evacuation drills on aircraft standing inside a hangar on level ground.

The difference is that it would have been a bigger plane. The A380 would have had more door/slides/exits and additional Flight Attendants to get the passengers out in a timely matter.



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User currently offlineDragon-wings From United States of America, joined Apr 2001, 3986 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (9 years 1 month 1 week 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 8515 times:

Did they do the evacuation tests on the A380 yet to see how fast it would take for people to get out? What were the results (If they did the test yet)? Do you think the people would of got out in the same amount of time as they did on AF358?


Don't give up don't ever give up - Jim Valvano
User currently offlinePA110 From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 2006 posts, RR: 23
Reply 9, posted (9 years 1 month 1 week 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 8511 times:
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Quoting MidnightMike (Reply 7):
The difference is that it would have been a bigger plane. The A380 would have had more door/slides/exits and additional Flight Attendants to get the passengers out in a timely matter.

True, but I think this is going to play into the back of the minds of some travelers worried about being crammed into an aircraft with so many passengers. Of course the A380 is designed to have adequate evacuation capabilities, but there is always the unexpected freak factor - do you really want to be in an evacuation with so many passengers all trying to get out?

Unlike most A.net uber-geeks, I have no desire to fly an A380. Having just observed checkin at SFO for peak season weekend departures to Europe, the lines at check-in were horrendous - and that's SFO where there is more than adequate space between banks of checkin desks. Think about the Bradley terminal at LAX, where the checkin banks are way too close together. There isn't sufficient space now. Can you imagine the chaos checking in several A380 flights with queues of several different airlines running into each other? What about the departure gates? There are barely enough seats for existing 747 flights. Don't even get me started with baggage claim. Picture Heathrow T3 baggage hall with EK, SQ and VS A380's all landing roughly at the same time. It's not going to be a pretty sight - and I'm quite content to stay as far away from the madness as possible. Give me the smaller A330, 340 or 350 anytime.



It's been swell, but the swelling has gone down.
User currently offlineMidnightMike From United States of America, joined Mar 2003, 2892 posts, RR: 14
Reply 10, posted (9 years 1 month 1 week 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 8490 times:

Quoting Dragon-wings (Reply 8):
Did they do the evacuation tests on the A380 yet to see how fast it would take for people to get out?

No, not yet....

Quoting Dragon-wings (Reply 8):


Do you think the people would of got out in the same amount of time as they did on AF358?

If & when the test is conducted, they have the same amount of time to get out of the aircraft, so, yes, if not, then the A380 will not be certified.



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User currently offlineMidnightMike From United States of America, joined Mar 2003, 2892 posts, RR: 14
Reply 11, posted (9 years 1 month 1 week 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 8463 times:

Quoting PA110 (Reply 9):
True, but I think this is going to play into the back of the minds of some travelers worried about being crammed into an aircraft with so many passengers. Of course the A380 is designed to have adequate evacuation capabilities, but there is always the unexpected freak factor - do you really want to be in an evacuation with so many passengers all trying to get out?

Travellers? I would say that a very large amount of passengers do not care, nor do they know what type of aircraft they are travelling on.

There is always the freak factor with any type of airplane, that is why there are double the amount of doors/windows than is required.

The various authorities around the world, CAA,FAA, CASA, JCAB, DCGAC, etc. When ready, will certify that the A380 is safe to fly, if it is not safe, then it won't.



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User currently offlineAstuteman From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2005, 10024 posts, RR: 96
Reply 12, posted (9 years 1 month 1 week 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 8439 times:
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Quoting Indy (Reply 4):
It probably would have sunk the landing gear in the ground and wouldn't have made it as far. Just a guess.

Except that the A380 has a lower loading per gear, because it has so many wheels....... Now a 777-300ER???? Might be more likely then....


User currently offlineBackfire From Germany, joined Oct 2006, 0 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (9 years 1 month 1 week 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 8384 times:

What If AF358 Had Been An Airbus A380?


Well, with fewer than 300 passengers, the load factor would have been lower.  Smile


User currently offlineAndrewUber From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 2528 posts, RR: 40
Reply 14, posted (9 years 1 month 1 week 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 8344 times:

Quoting Indy (Reply 2):
What if AF358 had been a Pinto. Ok maybe a bad example

It kindof was!  flamed   flamed   flamed 



I'd rather shoot BAD_MOTIVE
User currently offlineMidnightMike From United States of America, joined Mar 2003, 2892 posts, RR: 14
Reply 15, posted (9 years 1 month 1 week 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 8335 times:

Quoting Backfire (Reply 13):
Well, with fewer than 300 passengers, the load factor would have been lower.

That's funny!!!  Smile



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User currently offlineFlySSC From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 7412 posts, RR: 57
Reply 16, posted (9 years 1 month 1 week 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 8156 times:

FriendlySkies Reply # 5

Nothing different, The A340 wasn't even full.


uhhh ?

F-GLZQ Cabin version : 30J / 261 Y = 291
PAX on Board including babies = 297

If that was not full, what do you call a "full flight" ?!?!?


User currently offlineCV747 From Iceland, joined Jan 2000, 170 posts, RR: 1
Reply 17, posted (9 years 1 month 1 week 3 days ago) and read 8063 times:

Quoting Dragon-wings (Reply 8):
Do you think the people would of got out in the same amount of time as they did on AF358?

It does not matter what size the aircraft is. The rules are clear for ANY size of commercial aircraft. It must be able to evacuate all passengers in less then 90 secconds or the thing will not be certified.

BUT, this is the theory. These tests are done in normal conditions. What if there is fire, smoke, panic, children crying, people looking for their stuff! as one could clearly see on the people leaving the AF358.

Many years ago a 737-200 caught fire during taxing in the UK and a lot of people died because they did not get out. (Of course there was a chain of events...)
During investigation the CAA tried the evacuation tests which worked fine. So the question arose, what did go wrong? The CAA did the test again with volonteers who were not briefed and should represent the normal flying public. They told them that the first to get out would get a fair amount of money, the next ones would get less and the last would get nothing. The results were catastrophic. The plane was not evacuated in 90 seconds. People got walked over, and it was ruled by the law of the jungle. This is exactly what happens if there is panic.

Quoting Incitatus (Thread starter):
What If AF358 Had Been An Airbus A380?

So that Question is not stupid at all. In theory nothing happens except there is much more rubish and more people running around.
In reality.... who knows!  Wink


User currently offlineAither From South Korea, joined Oct 2004, 858 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (9 years 1 month 1 week 3 days ago) and read 8045 times:

In Japan they operate 747s with 500+ pax.

A380s are configured with 525 pax on average, has 2 decks, and more exits.



Never trust the obvious
User currently offlineFlySSC From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 7412 posts, RR: 57
Reply 19, posted (9 years 1 month 1 week 3 days ago) and read 8025 times:

CV747 Reply#17

It must be able to evacuate all passengers in less than 90 seconds or the thing will not be certified


Actually, the rule is " evacuate All passengers in less than 90 second with only half of the doors and exits available ".

That's what happened on AF358. The A340 has 4 pairs of doors.
ALL the PAX were evacuated through only 4 doors. The 4 others could not be opened or were not opened deliberately by the Crew because of the fire outside.


User currently offlineCornish From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2005, 8187 posts, RR: 54
Reply 20, posted (9 years 1 month 1 week 3 days ago) and read 7987 times:

What if the aircraft had been a 747. Would you have avoided flying upstairs if that was the case?? Traded business class for economy???

I doubt it.

If you're afraid of flying something, don't fly it....



Just when I thought I could see light at the end of the tunnel, it was some B*****d with a torch bringing me more work
User currently offlineCV747 From Iceland, joined Jan 2000, 170 posts, RR: 1
Reply 21, posted (9 years 1 month 1 week 3 days ago) and read 7974 times:

Quoting FlySSC (Reply 19):
Actually, the rule is " evacuate All passengers in less than 90 second with only half of the doors and exits available ".

Yes, you are absolutelly right. I forgot to mentin that. I did my cabin evacuation training on a 742 many years ago. And one of the simulated situations was a collapsed nose gear. ...don't try to use the slide of R/L 5 in that case... that will hurt!  Big grin


User currently offlineIncitatus From Brazil, joined Feb 2005, 4014 posts, RR: 13
Reply 22, posted (9 years 1 month 1 week 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 7787 times:

Asking this question is relevant.

The A380 is a new aircraft with a full size upper deck. The evacuation trials are performed under controlled circumstances. What would it be like if the evacuation had to be performed in a ditch, with the fuselage tilted to the side? The slides on the higher side of the upper deck may be too steep after deployment. The slides on the lower side may get stuck on trees and not deploy properly. This happened in the front exit of AF358 and the passengers jumped instead of riding a twisted slide. Thus it is not unthinkable to consider an evacuation scenario for the A380 where all emergency exits upstairs are inoperable. That is not the case with an ATR72 or a Ford Pinto, is it?



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User currently offlineMidnightMike From United States of America, joined Mar 2003, 2892 posts, RR: 14
Reply 23, posted (9 years 1 month 1 week 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 7299 times:

Quoting Incitatus (Reply 22):
Asking this question is relevant.

The A380 is a new aircraft with a full size upper deck. The evacuation trials are performed under controlled circumstances. What would it be like if the evacuation had to be performed in a ditch, with the fuselage tilted to the side? The slides on the higher side of the upper deck may be too steep after deployment. The slides on the lower side may get stuck on trees and not deploy properly. This happened in the front exit of AF358 and the passengers jumped instead of riding a twisted slide. Thus it is not unthinkable to consider an evacuation scenario for the A380 where all emergency exits upstairs are inoperable. That is not the case with an ATR72 or a Ford Pinto, is it?

It would be impossible to come up with a scenario for all possible problems that could happen with any aircraft, only difference with the A380 is that it is bigger, that is why there is a standard way. Would imagine that when it comes time for the A380, Airbus would have to evacuate a full load of passengers whether 500 passengers or 700 passengers with half the doors/windows on the 1st & the 2nd deck blocked off. Of course, that is just a guess as to what the A380 evac certification would be...

Going back to the A340 accident, half the doors were not used, just like in the certification....



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User currently offlineAIRCANL1011 From Canada, joined Aug 2005, 262 posts, RR: 1
Reply 24, posted (9 years 1 month 1 week 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 6886 times:

Getting back to "what if it had been an A380". Landing that far down the runway, what would it's speed have been at the end. Wouldn't the impact on the plane hitting the ditch be much worse.

I would think that the A380 would take longer to stop, and as they say, "The bigger it is, the harder it falls". This accident may have been a catastrophe if it had been that much bigger of a plane.



CYMRU AM BYTH / WALES FOREVER
25 Ikramerica : In OVER 90 seconds by all accounts I've read (2 minutes to 2+ minutes).
26 BG777300ER : Totally agree!!!
27 Revelation : Not necessarily so - it depends on if the braking power has been increased in proportion to the increase in mass. I'd imagine that Airbus would want
28 Caribb : What if there had been no ravine at the end of the runway... all this might have been nothing more than an overrun with a couple of shook up passenger
29 Aviationwiz : In that case, it seems quite plausible that it may have gone into the roads.
30 Caribb : Then there's still a bigger problem... The runway extension isn't large enough or there should be some means to safely stop/slow an aircraft down sho
31 AIRCANL1011 : If AF358 had landed on R25 at the north end of the airport he would have ended up on Dixie RD. which would have been full of traffic at that time of d
32 Post contains images FlySSC : If..., If..., If..., If..., If..., What if we woud stop for good with all these "What if..." posts ?
33 Indy : As much as I hate them at times it is part of what makes this website great. The free flow of ideas sparks debate and at times can unearth subjects t
34 Henpol747 : If..., If..., If..., If..., If..., What if we woud stop for good with all these "What if..." posts ? What if my grandmother had wings?? she´d be a je
35 Post contains images Bongo : He he he....and you would be a Twin Otter...sorry couldn't resist
36 Jtamu97 : IF frogs had wings, they would not bump their rear when hopping...IF IF IF continues
37 Post contains images Tjwgrr : Add a couple of stow-aways in the mains and Pierre trapped in the belly while napping when the cargo hold door was closed..... now she's full.
38 Areopagus : I recall reading in FI that many passengers insisted on taking their duty-free liquor with them, which resulted in a lot of broken glass at the botto
39 Litz : I'll tell you the "what-if" that makes me think ... And this would apply to the upper deck on a 747 as well as an A380, or any other plane that will c
40 RedChili : Apparently, people flying with the Japanese or the Corsair 747s are not afraid of this. At ARN, I see lots of people every day who are not afraid of
41 Areopagus : What if AF358 had been a BWB? A passenger in the middle section sees not exits left and right, but more cabin sections.
42 Birdbrainz : Regarding the A380 and the AF358 crash: It's safe to say that the AF358 had trouble braking on a rain soaked runway, and in that case, reverse thrust
43 Post contains images Jacobin777 : The WhaleJet emergency exit tests will occur in a few months, if they can't get all of the pax out by 90 seconds, they will have another attempt to do
44 Ultrapig : I have flown a moderate amount in the last 40 years-I know the 90 day rule but my reaction is that one reason everyone got out was that the 340's exis
45 Glideslope : Very good point. Another reason to think long and hard about the 380. Do we really "Need It"? Or do we "Want It?"
46 NA : Its not only the double deck issue that makes me think, its also another scenario: what if it had been a 773ER? Its massive engines would have surely
47 Post contains images Udo : And what about a fully loaded Corsair B747 which seats more pax than most A380 customers plan to? Then think long and hard and tell your ideas to all
48 Litz : Well, I don't think it's really big jets vs small jets, really more the door size, as you point out ... Any jet with overwing exits are going to be a
49 Skywatch : If it was an A380, wouldn't it have gone to a longer runway?
50 TheSonntag : Actually I do not think that this post is irrelevant. One thing is clear, for sure: On the A380 it is absolutely vital that the slides are working on
51 RedChili : Come on! Boeing apparently managed to get 550 people out of five doors on the 773, since their web site claims that that plane can seat 550. Most A38
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