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Finnair Replacement For MD-11  
User currently offlineDogfighter2111 From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2004, 1968 posts, RR: 1
Posted (8 years 11 months 3 weeks 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 9285 times:

Hey,

I read another topic about an 8th or 9th MD-11 for Finnair. The MD-11's are a getting old and there may be some newer models that may fit the Finnair fleet.

I think the A330 would suit Finnair the best. They already have A319's, A320's and A321's.

Anyone got any idea if they will plan on getting rid of the MD-11's in the near future?

Thanks
Mike

48 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineBlatantEcho From United States of America, joined Sep 2000, 1903 posts, RR: 1
Reply 1, posted (8 years 11 months 3 weeks 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 9218 times:

I believe they are on record as saying that the only replacment for their MD-11s would be more MD-11s.

So, nope, they are there to stay.
George



They're not handing trophies out today
User currently offlineYyz717 From Canada, joined Sep 2001, 16245 posts, RR: 56
Reply 2, posted (8 years 11 months 3 weeks 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 9186 times:

There is no need to replace the M11 fleet any time soon.

If/when they do, perhaps a smaller widebody would suffice. The 788/789 or 358/59 is probably inevitable.



Panam, TWA, Ansett, Eastern.......AC next? Might be good for Canada.
User currently offlineLegacy135 From Switzerland, joined May 2005, 1052 posts, RR: 26
Reply 3, posted (8 years 11 months 3 weeks 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 9130 times:

A major part of operating costs always result from financing as well. I am sure, at the moment you can get an MD11 for very interesting lease rates. So it can be absolutely an up to date aircraft for some more years.
Remember, the last ones have been delivered when A330/340 have been around already.


User currently offlineDogfighter2111 From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2004, 1968 posts, RR: 1
Reply 4, posted (8 years 11 months 3 weeks 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 9020 times:

Quoting Legacy135 (Reply 3):

That's true, but i am talking about Brand New A330's off the Production line. Although some MD-11's are only 10 years old, they will more than likely be taken out of Passenger service within the next 5 or 6 years. And if it is possile, they may be converted into Cargo Aircraft.

Thanks
Mike


User currently offlineCV580Freak From Bahrain, joined Jul 2005, 1033 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (8 years 11 months 3 weeks 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 8989 times:

I bet there are 5 or 6 major cargo airlines watching what they decide about their MD-11 replacement, they would rip their arm off  Smile


One day you are the pigeon, the next the statue ...
User currently offlineDutchjet From Netherlands, joined Oct 2000, 7864 posts, RR: 57
Reply 6, posted (8 years 11 months 3 weeks 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 8964 times:

If Finnair was thinking about replacing the MD11 fleet, I dont think that they would be looking for additional MD11s are reported in another thread.

I think that Finnair is quite happy with the MD11, its suits their route system, the operating ecnomics are acceptable, and they are probably much cheaper to lease or acquire than 777s or A340s. The MD11s are not very old, between 10 and 15 years old, and they fly longhaul segments which means cycles are rather low - the MD11s can be flown for many more years without any issues.

My guess is that Finnair, when its ready to think about a replacement for the MD11 fleet, will look directly to the A350 and 787 families of aircraft. Its a bit late in the game for Finnair to select the A330/343....they can simply wait for the A350 at this point. Finnair could be interested in the 787 family, since its ideal for long thin routes and/or the 777 series for higher demand routes. In any case, Finnair has lots of time to figure this out.


User currently offlineMatt27 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (8 years 11 months 3 weeks 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 8935 times:

The CEO of Finnair once said:

Quote:
The best way of replacing an MD-11 is with an MD-11

//Mattias


User currently offlineDogfighter2111 From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2004, 1968 posts, RR: 1
Reply 8, posted (8 years 11 months 3 weeks 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 8902 times:

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 6):

If you'd read what i said, i meant for them to buy a replacement. Not lease.

Although i agree with you about the A350. I think Finnair was thinking about the A350 but i assume they wouldn't replace the MD-11's with th A350's. They'd open up new routes.

Thanks
Mike


User currently offlineLegacy135 From Switzerland, joined May 2005, 1052 posts, RR: 26
Reply 9, posted (8 years 11 months 3 weeks 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 8881 times:

Quoting Dogfighter2111 (Reply 8):
If you'd read what i said, i meant for them to buy a replacement. Not lease.

Who bought aircraft the last ten years??? Most sold the rest and leased them back  Wink


User currently offlineIlgrancapo From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 10, posted (8 years 11 months 3 weeks 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 8865 times:

Quoting BlatantEcho (Reply 1):
I believe they are on record as saying that the only replacment for their MD-11s would be more MD-11s.

As the CEO of Finnair said, the MD-11 it´s the best aircraft for the scandinavian airline.

But if you want to talk about long haul fleet retirement, why no CSA or Malev???????


User currently offlineDogfighter2111 From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2004, 1968 posts, RR: 1
Reply 11, posted (8 years 11 months 3 weeks 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 8854 times:

Quoting Legacy135 (Reply 9):

hehe, that'd explain a lot.  Smile


User currently offlineOHLBU From Finland, joined Jan 2005, 226 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (8 years 11 months 3 weeks 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 8702 times:

Quoting Ilgrancapo (Reply 10):
best aircraft for the scandinavian airline

Just to make things accurate, Finland is not a part of Scandinavia. If you want to talk about Finland and Scandinavia together that would be Fennoscandia.

Finnair is not replacing their MD-11s during this decade, which means the A359 would be on the market just in time when they need the new planes. And although the '11s are maturing well, don't forget that McDonnell Douglas built their planes to last. Just look at the fleets of DC-9s/DC-10s still in use.


User currently onlineRedChili From Norway, joined Jul 2005, 2214 posts, RR: 4
Reply 13, posted (8 years 11 months 3 weeks 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 8623 times:

"The next stage of fleet investment, at the turn of the decade, will involve the intercontinental fleet."

Quote from a Finnair press release on http://www.finnairgroup.com/desk/media_3_1_1.html?&Id=1092989686.html .

So what Finnair is saying here is basically that some time around 2010-2011, Finnair will replace its MD-11 airplanes with another plane. In my opinion, they will probably replace it with the A350 or the B787. I wouldn't be surprised if we will see a Finnair order some time soon for one of those two types. And since Finnair is currently growing like crazy, I guess that they need at least ten planes for the beginning of next decade.



Top 10 airplanes: B737, T154, B747, IL96, T134, IL62, A320, MD80, B757, DC10
User currently offlineFCKC From France, joined Nov 2004, 2348 posts, RR: 4
Reply 14, posted (8 years 11 months 3 weeks 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 8514 times:

The plane replacement for the MD11 has already been discussed in another thread , not so long ago.
AY is studying the A350 , not the 787.


User currently offlineDogfighter2111 From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2004, 1968 posts, RR: 1
Reply 15, posted (8 years 11 months 3 weeks 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 8461 times:

Quoting RedChili (Reply 13):

Hey,

Thanks for the great info.

As Finnair is going Airbus then i think the A350 will be the best option. Or that A380  Smile

Thanks
Mike


User currently offlineKilljoy From Finland, joined Dec 1999, 646 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (8 years 11 months 3 weeks 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 8450 times:

Quoting Yyz717 (Reply 2):
If/when they do, perhaps a smaller widebody would suffice. The 788/789 or 358/59 is probably inevitable.

Isn't the A359 actually larger than the MD-11? In any case, I don't think a smaller one will do, and I also think this will cause the B787 to lose.

Finnair is currently flying to Bangkok more than once a day and I highly doubt that they would want to cut capacity. The 359 can match the MD-11, but the 789 can't. It would force them to either increase frequencies, or to also fly the 777. The former option isn't all that attractive, as there already is a decent amount of flights, and the latter option of flying two types would obviously raise costs.

I'm not 100% confident about my theory, however, as other issues may also affect the decision. For example, they may well decide to replace the 757 with the 787, which would then make the 777 an obvious MD-11 replacement, even if it is a bit bulky for some routes, and older than the A350. Cargo capacity should also be important.

I do think a combination of A321, A358 and A359 is more logical, though. It'll leave a gap where the 757 is, but almost any solution will leave a gap somewhere, and it's one type less than the best Boeing-combination I can come up with (they already fly the A321).

Plus, if they keep growing at this rate, they'll need the A380 for BKK in ten years  Wink . Do any of you think that'll actually happen? I don't know. Stranger things have taken place.


User currently offlineDogfighter2111 From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2004, 1968 posts, RR: 1
Reply 17, posted (8 years 11 months 3 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 8395 times:

Quoting Killjoy (Reply 16):

The B787 is really a B757ER replacement.

The A350 is an A330 replacement/redesign.

Therefore, the A350 would be a better option for more PAX and increased range.

Thanks
Mike


User currently offlineLumberton From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 4708 posts, RR: 20
Reply 18, posted (8 years 11 months 3 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 8336 times:

Quoting Dogfighter2111 (Reply 17):
The B787 is really a B757ER replacement.

Can you elaborate on this please?



"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
User currently offlineDogfighter2111 From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2004, 1968 posts, RR: 1
Reply 19, posted (8 years 11 months 3 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 8311 times:

Quoting Lumberton (Reply 18):

I cannot give you a link at the moment. I will get you a link to a Boeing News Report where they said that with no more production of the B757, the B787 will serve as a Replacement.

Thanks
Mike


User currently offlineKilljoy From Finland, joined Dec 1999, 646 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (8 years 11 months 3 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 8287 times:

Quoting Dogfighter2111 (Reply 19):
they said that with no more production of the B757, the B787 will serve as a Replacement.

The 787 can replace the 757, but that doesn't mean it's what it's best at. It's much too large to replace it 1:1.


User currently offlineLumberton From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 4708 posts, RR: 20
Reply 21, posted (8 years 11 months 3 weeks 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 8241 times:

Quoting Dogfighter2111 (Reply 19):
I cannot give you a link at the moment. I will get you a link to a Boeing News Report where they said that with no more production of the B757, the B787 will serve as a Replacement.

Thanks, Mike. That'll be interesting reading!



"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
User currently onlineRedChili From Norway, joined Jul 2005, 2214 posts, RR: 4
Reply 22, posted (8 years 11 months 3 weeks 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 8200 times:

Quoting Killjoy (Reply 16):
Isn't the A359 actually larger than the MD-11? In any case, I don't think a smaller one will do, and I also think this will cause the B787 to lose.

Agree. I checked the numbers on Airbus and Boeing web sites now, and I guess that the 787 will be too small to replace the MD-11 for AY. The A359 has 15 seats more than the MD-11 in three-class, so that's better.



Top 10 airplanes: B737, T154, B747, IL96, T134, IL62, A320, MD80, B757, DC10
User currently offlineOV735 From Estonia, joined Jan 2004, 909 posts, RR: 3
Reply 23, posted (8 years 11 months 3 weeks 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 7829 times:

I've heard the main reason why AY likes those M11's so much is because of what lies below the passenger cabin, ie the large cargo capacity, which is very useful as the airline doesn't have a separate cargo arm.

That's what keeps them from buying any A330's or 777 now, as both have much smaller cargo holds and AY probably doesn't want to cut down on cargo capacity, as that's a large source of income.

Since they're going to have to switch to new models some time within the next 10 years, and none of the current 'future' designs (787 and 350, that is) probably have a large cargo hold either, there would be basically two options: a) cutting back on capacity (unlikely, I think); or b) opening a separate cargo arm with dedicated cargo aircraft. In the latter scenario we could theoretically see some of those M11's being converted to cargo carriers, so that might give even more time for the tri-jet in the AY fleet.

But then again, it might be all different.

Cheers
OV735


User currently offlineHZ747300 From Hong Kong, joined Mar 2004, 1656 posts, RR: 1
Reply 24, posted (8 years 11 months 3 weeks 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 7749 times:
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Quoting Dogfighter2111 (Reply 17):
The A350 is an A330 replacement/redesign.

The A350 is really an A330 with A350 painted over it...

Finnair will go for the A350 in the same way Royal Air Maroc went for the 787.



Keep on truckin'...
25 Post contains links Eilennaei : I'm understanding from what I read yesterday in my local paper that Mr Bjurström, Head of Operations, says that the new long-range equipment, which w
26 Dogfighter2111 : Sorry, it is more than likely the way i explained it. I meant it to serve as a replacement. Not as a replacement. Sorry, but i couldn't find that lin
27 1millionflyer : Northwest has a DC-10-30 with over 125,000 hours and it is still flying. I can't understand why people think an airframe that is less than 12 years ol
28 FCKC : HZ747300 Exactly Killjoy This is a possibily.Who was thinking when they operated 3 DC8-62s some decades ago , in 2005 they will have a fleet a nearly
29 Maersk737 : Could you please explain? Cheers Peter
30 Dogfighter2111 : 1 Day after you get an aircraft is old. It is no longer worth the value that you bought it for. Thanks Mike
31 Post contains images MD11junkie : They sure don't think the 747-400, 757, 767 are old... no... they are modern... Interesting point of view/data. Maybe, AY will not dispose all of its
32 RedChili : The difference is that the 757 and 767 were made by almighty Boeing, but the MD-11 was made by a horrible Boeing competitor! Anything which doesn't c
33 Eilennaei : That's ongoing in fact, and the final MD-80 flight has been already fixed, around Sept. 2006.
34 OHLHD : I had the pleasure to talk to a AY- Manager. He said that there actualy no plans to order any new A/C. The focus is on the EMB170 introduction and aft
35 Post contains images MD11junkie : I pray for your sake that this is sarcasm No, Mighty Dogs = MD11, Mad Dogs = MD8X. This does say that they are quite pleased with it and that they ar
36 Post contains images Killjoy : What, it's not Mega Death, son of Death Cruiser?
37 1MillionFlyer : Maybe you should do some research a 1955 Bonanza sells for about 300% MORE than it did new, some airplanes do not lose their value. Also, if you don'
38 MD-90 : Nah, think of all the inflation during the last 50 years caused by our national government.
39 Ha763 : That's incorrect. The 777-200A/ER/LR (no optional tanks) carry the exact same amount of ULDs as the MD-11, 18 LD-3s in front, 14 in back for a total
40 OV735 : Roger that. I should have checked before I wrote that.
41 Post contains images Dogfighter2111 : Good God, what a mess i have gotten myself into...lol When i said B757ER i meant the B787 would serve as a replacement for a B757ER. The B787 has a l
42 Billy : Not sure if this has been posted but AY is launching Nagoya with their 7th unit. This will start next year.
43 Post contains images UpperDeck79 : You were the first one! They just had a press release about it. Way to go, AY!
44 Dogfighter2111 : That will be a great destination. Well, most Asian routes are Profitable from the EU. Thanks Mike
45 Post contains links 1MillionFlyer : The government alone does not cause inflation, increasing wages, supply and demand for goods and services, Trade deficit and monetary policy all cont
46 Dogfighter2111 : Exactly, a B747 would never fly for 50 or 60 years. 36 at the most probably. Thanks Mike
47 1MillionFlyer : Then the time value of money would cause less inflation adjusted difference in value. You just answered you own "old" question, the MD-11s are only 1
48 Post contains images Dogfighter2111 : Ahh yes, but I only said a B747 would fly for around 36 years. Not an MD-11 Although, you explained it first then I understood what you were saying.
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